barrow
Member
Tark, theres no doubt that the slide and barrel have moved in that picture. look at the lower barrel lugs. Theyve backed a good ways off the slidestop pin.
Why do you believe that a musket barrel recoils but a 1911 barrel with a welded breech (a muzzleloader by any other name) won't?
Both of these guns have locked breeches but blowback for extraction.
Here's one. The video in the link below is a compilation of several slow-motion videos of firearms being shot. One segment of the video (from 2:13 to 2:37) shows an extreme slow motion closeup shot of the muzzle of a 1911 pistol. The frame in this shot is held motionless and the dustcover is visible at the left of the shot.I am STILL waiting for someone to show me 10,000 frames per second photography showing ANY movement of the slide on ANY automatic until AFTER the bullet has left the muzzle.
Tark, the effect of a hand holding a pistol may actually make the slide recoil compared to the frame less, but the overall movement of the slide is the same. The shooter is going to take some of that recoil by letting the frame go back with the slide, then the frame comes to rest or is even driven forward by rebounding out of the hand. Either way, it doesn't change the central premise of recoil operation - the slide starts moving immediately, regardless of whether the frame follows for a bit or not.Barrow, you're RIGHT! It does look like it has moved! Oh, my god! did somebody on this thread just admit that maybe he does NOT know everything? (me) I may have to re-align my thinking. But I am mystified why all those high speed photos show no movement until the bullet is gone. In one I saw on the military channel, they showed a custom 1911 with front serrations on the slide(which made it very easy to index the slide to the frame) with the camera on the port side. The field of view was about three feet either side of the gun. You could clearly see the gas cloud emerging from the barrel and the bullet emerging out of, and exiting the field of view. And there was STILL a delay before the slide finally moves. I don't get it.
But I do know THIS If you plug the bore in Tuners experiment I think you will get a little more violence that just gas hissing around the breech as the pressure bleeds off.
Tuner if you're listening (I know you are) why do 1911s blow up when a squib load pushes a bullet just far enough up the bore to chamber another round behind it. Don't tell me it doesn't , I've seen too many of them come into our shop.
Any recoil-operated firearm design will work without expanding gas.
A recoil-operated design can be applied to any propulsive system (gas, magnetic, spring-powered, electric, etc).
1911Tuner said:Yeah. Not real proud of that, but I wasn't a moderator then and I wasn't even into the gun boards all that much. I signed on here mainly out of boredom and made a few posts...and Handy jumped on me like a duck on a June Bug with a full measure of his typical snark. Don;t know why he singled me out, but there it was.
I didn't invent the term "locked" or "blowback". I'm merely explaining what they mean. And an unlocked, blowback action is defined by the fact that the action opens immediately upon application of chamber pressure, and that the speed the action opens is in direct proportion to the chamber pressure. More pressure, faster opening.
The blowback action does not immediately open upon application of chamber pressure. Not until pressure is sufficient to begin to overcome the inertia of the slide does the action “unlock”.
A locked breech system doesn't open due to chamber pressure. And the speed the action moves in a recoil system is also independent of chamber pressure. If you got 1000 fps out of detonation or a long, slow, low pressure burn, the slide and barrel will recoil at the same speeds.
Agreed. I do think that residual pressure aids slide movement after it unlocks.
This may be part of the problem.
In this case, you are misunderstanding what's happening. If the blowforward gun's frame was clamped to a vice and the barrel plugged, the gas pressure would still allow the casing and barrel to expand away from each other. Since the casing has nowhere to go, the gas pressure in the barrel pushes it forward. Friction certainly can assist with this, but it isn't necessary. Blowforward will work with a low friction sabot.
That is because your “plugged” barrel is mimicking essentially what a bullet in the barrel creates, a temporarily plugged barrel. Of course after the bullet exits the barrel the residual gas pressure will act upon the portions of the barrel perpendicular to the direction of the gas flow. I think Kumaso Hino and Tomisiro Komuro would agree with me.
The barrel friction thing is just part of the 1911tuner's confusion. You can create high friction, low mass projectiles that won't cycle a recoil gun because they have all the gas pressure but none of the momentum. And you can create low friction, high mass loads that will cycle everything.
That's the problem with belief. You believe that whomever named "recoil operated actions" was using the wrong term, so you reject examples of recoil being a force that causes things to happen. But it is and does, which is why any projectile thrower, from crossbow to rail gun, recoils. Using that recoil instead of gas pressure is why we have the term "recoi operation" instead of the term "locked breech blowback". 1911Tuner is trying to sell "locked breech blowback" as the correction for what people have understood to be "recoil" since at least 1896. They didn't get it wrong.
You have not been paying close enough attention. I believe no such thing. I’m the guy in the previous thread that defended the belief that recoil actions are recoil operated actions and not gas pressure operated blowback actions. My first post in this thread commented about using correct terminology and that short recoil is not the same as blowback. I know you are engaged in an intense dispute with 1911Tuner, but please pay attention to what the rest of us are saying that supports your argument.
Consider the following:
When a 150 grain projectile is accelerated up to 1000 fps, it creates the equivalent recoil momentum of accelerating a 1 lbs slide to 21 fps. (Mass x Velocity = Momentum) That means the slide will move 4 inches in 1/63 of a second at full speed. How is that not enough recoil energy to cycle a gun?
Does your math factor in the movement of the 1 pound slide being resisted by the recoil spring? I am not saying your wrong if the momentum equation says it will work, I just thought it would take more velocity to create sufficient momentum. Thanks for doing the math.
I was using examples that assumed nothing broke during firing. Not much point in discussing hypotheticals if the gun isn't strong enough. It is not hard to come up with examples of guns whose structural maximum chamber pressure is more than twice its operating pressure. Given that, the example works fine.
Yup.45 auto is talkin bout plugging behind the powder charge. Tuner in front of it. I believe yall are so aggravated at each other you aint reading each other's posts!
Nom de Forum said:Does anyone still think the 1911 is a Delayed Blowback pistol?
The pressure becomes sufficient to move the slide the same moment it becomes sufficient to move the bullet. When pressure converts to motion, both pieces that move do so simultaneously.The blowback action does not immediately open upon application of chamber pressure. Not until pressure is sufficient to begin to overcome the inertia of the slide does the action “unlock”.
I don’t believe in your scenario that enough recoil will be generated to operate the action. You are implying making the Glock an electrically powered magnetic driver. The moment the “150 grain slug” leaves the barrel there is no remaining pressure. When a real Glock unlocks there is still remaining gas pressure on the face of the slide. I think you would have to greatly exceed 1000fps before this could be possible.
me said:so you reject examples of recoil being a force that causes things to happen.
Please don't let me put words in your mouth. It appeared that you said you didn't believe the reaction to the launch of a bullet alone would transmit enough energy to the slide to cycle it without gas pumping out the bore, and that is what I responded to. At this point, I can't tell whether you feel that a recoil operated pistol can function without also acting as a gas jet or not. The early quote suggests you feel it must be present, the second, correcting me, gives the opposite impression.You have not been paying close enough attention. I believe no such thing. I’m the guy in the previous thread that defended the belief that recoil actions are recoil operated actions and not gas pressure operated blowback actions. My first post in this thread commented about using correct terminology and that short recoil is not the same as blowback. I know you are engaged in an intense dispute with 1911Tuner, but please pay attention to what the rest of us are saying that supports your argument.
Considering that JohnKsa demonstrated that the slide begins moving before the bullet comes ouy, it appears that the velocity is created against spring pressure before gases exit the bore. But I did not factor the spring in my simple example.Does your math factor in the movement of the 1 pound slide being resisted by the recoil spring? I am not saying your wrong if the momentum equation says it will work, I just thought it would take more velocity to create sufficient momentum. Thanks for doing the math.
jlr2267 said:I think what you meant to say was that a recoil-type action can be designed around any type of propulsive system, which is certainly true....and in the same line of thinking, a blowback type action could be designed around any type as well (although it would be more challenging, in my opinion)
Blowback is a system of operation for self-loading firearms that obtains energy from the motion of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear by expanding gases created by the ignition of the propellant charge.
blowback
(Military) the action of a light automatic weapon in which the expanding gases of the propellant force back the bolt, thus reloading the weapon
RX79G , The guns we get in the shop blown up by squibb loads leaving a bullet in the bore (by squibb I mean primer with no powder)always have a ringed barrel, about an inch or so AHEAD if the chamber, where the second bullet hits the first. It seems to always blow out the bottom of the case in the throat area, along with the magazine, the grips and the shooters hand.
But my point is the primer almost always pushes the bullet an inch or two up the bore, so I think (I don't know for sure, I was wrong earlier on this thread) the increased pressures are due to a bore obstruction and not the bullet in the second round being pushed further into the case.
I DO know that tuners claim that he fired a 45 1911 with the bore obstructed so completely that the bullet could not move at all, resulted in no damage to the gun other that some hissing around the breech as the pressure slowly bled of; is most difficult to believe.
LMAO!!!
Obviously you haven't read any of 1911tuner's posts .......[/QUOTE
That was a rhetorical question in the original short recoil thread in what now seems like a thousand years ago. I have read all his posts and I do wonder if he fully accepts that the 1911 is not technically a delayed blowback. That is why I re-posted the information here hoping the gravitas of Jane's would end all doubt.