A Question for the Old-Timers

[Still Shooting]

I recently "went over" my Granddad's Winchester '07 (.351 WSL) piece-by-piece. I put a box of 1980's vintage 180gr. Winchester factory ammo through it, with no burps, hiccups, FTE, FTFeed, or FTFire. I also fired 10 rounds of Buffalo Arms "modern remakes" with no problems (these are .357 mag. cases with a turned base rebate).

I have a couple hundred 180gr. Soft Point bullets from Buffalo Arms, and loaded some into the once-fired Winchester cases. I know that the inertial semiauto action needs a pretty "stiff" charge to cycle, so I loaded with 18.5 gr. of 2400. Manual says min. 17.0gr. and max. 19.0gr.

I went to the range on a cold day (mid 20's) and filled the original 5-round magazine with my reloads. The first round cycled OK, but the second and subsequent ones failed to completely cycle the action. I ran another 5 rds. of factory ammo wth no problem. Again, I tried the reloads and none cycled the action.

I now face a choice: Pull the bullets, and (1) load and try a few rounds with 19.0 gr. of 2400, or (2) reload with IMR 4227. What would you do?

 

[rcmodel]

My vote would be #1.

My old Cartridges of the World says 19.0 gr. 2400 + a 180 bullet duplicates factory ballistics.

No point in throwing another powder in to the mix and having to start over again just yet.

rc

 

[45lcshooter]

I'm with RC.

 

[Still Shooting]

Yeah, my first reaction was to just "up" the charge to 19.0 gr. and try again; of course I will likely also take along a few rounds of the 18.5 gr. stuff when I go to the range to test, just to see if the cold weather was the determining factor. -Not that I want a "warm weather" round, since deer season is pretty cold sometimes up here in the mountains! I'm just curious...

I'm also going to try some research on 2400 and IMR 4227 temp. curves. It may be I should use the 4227 anyway, if the 2400 is considerably more temperature sensitive. But the 2400 rounds were pretty accurate, and I don't know how 4227 will do in that department.

 

[rcmodel]

Mmmmm?
The last coyote I killed with a handgun was a lot of years ago.

But it was with a .357 Ruger flat-top at about 100+ yards.
And it was well below freezing.
The yote froze stiff before I got home with it to skin it.


I think 2400 will do nicely, once you figure out the powder charge it takes to cycle the action.


IMO: Too many brain cells are wasted thinking about cold weather powder performance now days.

We didn't know 2400 wasn't supposed to work in cold weather 30 years ago.
Until modern advertising and the liar-net told us it wouldn't work in cold weather.

Also IMO:

The old IRM powders are no more cold resistant then the whole line of Hercules/Alliant handgun powders.

rc

 

[stubbicatt]

IIRC, 2400 has changed its formulation from the original batches way back when. I wish I could find that article...

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I've fired one, owned by a friend. But never loaded for it. Chuck Hawks show load data for 4227. http://www.chuckhawks.com/351_WSL.htm

 

[Slamfire]

from Wiki:

The Winchester Model 1907 is a blowback-operated, semi-automatic rifle produced by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company beginning in 1906 with production ending in 1958. It was fed from a 5 or 10-round capacity, detachable box magazine located immediately forward of the trigger guard. The only cartridge offered by Winchester as a factory chambering in the Model 1907 was the .351SL centerfire.[1] The energy of this cartridge approximates the modern .357 Magnum when fired from a rifle.

The basic problem is that your action is a blowback action. Case friction is preventing the action from properly functioning. Instead of adding gunpowder (and raising chamber pressures) you would be better off to lubricate your cases with oil or grease. As LTC Chinn said in Vol 4 of the Machine Gun:


http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=347-The-Machine-Gun-(by-George-M.-Chinn)

The 20mm Oerlikon used greased cases, this mechanism used gas to unlock but blowback to extract, billions of greased rounds were fired in WW2 by the UK and US Navy. This section from the Machine Gun Vol V is an extract from training materials of the era:



Figure from The Machine Gun Vol V Hispano-Oerlikon page 358

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=347-The-Machine-Gun-(by-George-M.-Chinn)

The Hispano-Oerlikon was used by the Navy from WW2 all the way through Vietnam. One reference states that 150,000 of the things were made and were in service during WW2. It was used on fighter aircraft, bombers, boats and ships. It was used by UK in Spitfires. The WW2 era cannons required greased ammunition, post war an automatic oiler was added.

You can see at exactly 2:14 on this WW2 video a Sailor’s hand painting grease on the 20 mm ammunition loading machine for the Oerlikon anti aircraft machine guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=9dR3h2HdnBQ


There were problems if the grease film was inadequate:

http://hnsa.org/doc/gun20mm/part4.htm


ORDNANCE PAMPHLET NO. 911 March 1943

GREASING AMMUNITION
All 20 mm. A.A. Mark 2 and Mark 4 ammunition MUST BE COMPLETELY COVERED WITH A LIGHT COAT OF MINERAL GREASE BEFORE BEING LOADED INTO THE MAGAZINE.

The ammunition is usually packed greased. However, this grease tends to dry off. Whether cartridges are packed greased or not, they should be regreased before loading the magazine.

NOTE-A small amount of mineral grease, applied shortly before firing, to the cartridge case that is visible in the magazine mouthpiece, will assist in preventing a jam in the gun barrel.

Dry ammunition or ammunition with insufficient grease will jam in the gun chamber when fired and extraction will be very difficult, if not impossible. See Page 110 for use of torn cartridge extractor.

 

[rcmodel]

Lube the cases??

But the OP said the gun works perfectly with Winchester factory ammo and Buffalo Arms reloads made from .357 cases.

It's the powder charge.

rc

 

[Slamfire]

Lube the cases??

But the OP said the gun works perfectly with Winchester factory ammo and Buffalo Arms reloads made from .357 cases.

It's the powder charge.

rc

Could be, but his gun jams after one round of his reloads. How do you know that the factory ammunition is not coated with ceresin wax?

If you remember, ceresin wax was the lubricant used for the Pedersen blowback rifle and ceresin wax was used as a lubricant on cases for the 20mm Oerlikon.

 

[Still Shooting]

Loading Up to 19.0 Grains

I finished resizing/prepping/priming 75 rds. of .351WSL last night, and kept 5 rds. loaded with 18.5 gr. from the older reloads. I noted that out of a total of 15 rds. fired from the prior 18.5 gr. load, 3 had primers partially backed out, which definitely says to me, "not enough powder!" Two of those rounds were once-fired factory, and the third was a virgin case from a lot that I bought recently.

Have loaded 10 rds. with 19.0 gr. of 2400, and will test them -hopefully this afternoon, before the rain starts- on the range.

 

[Still Shooting]

Success at 19.0 grains

Went to the range, set up a couple of targets (a mere formality), and ran 2-5 round magazines loaded with 19 gr. of 2400 pushing the 180 gr. softpoint through the old 1907 Winchester. It cycled just fine, and put 'em out there in a deer-killing circle at 50 yards.

I switched back to the 5 rounds I saved that were loaded with 18.5 gr. of powder, and the first one cycled OK. It cleared the chamber, "picked up" the second round from the magazine, and made it ready to fire. I pulled the trigger on round 2 and the gun fired and cycled, but the trigger didn't cock and the next round from the magazine didn't feed. I manually cycled the action, and fired the third round. When the gun tried to eject and pick up round 4, It failed to extract round 3, but cycled and picked up round 4. That one jammed part way out of the magazine, holding the bolt open.

None of this drama happens with 19 grains of powder, so that's what I just loaded 50 more rounds of!

 

[Still Shooting]

Success at 19.0 grains

(edit)

 

[rcmodel]

Imagine that!!

rc