A serious question about an AR vs M1 Carbine for defense.

[1KPerDay]

Absolutely spot on. ^^^^

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Ask yourself this, OP. Since the Mini-14 and M1 carbine are very similar actions, the difference pretty much only being caliber, which would you prefer, the M1 Carbine, or Mini 14?
Personally, I'd take the Mini. (But I'd take a Garand over either.)

To each his own. Personally, I prefer my M1 Carbine. The Minis are OK too, but I prefer the carbine. I agree with the Garand, but that’s a whole different critter.

It was never my intent (see my original post) to say the M1 Carbine was better, only that in close-in situations it was pretty effective, and could be more so. As far as the surplus weapons go, I can’t say, but mine is a new manufacture (well a few years old), and goes bang every time. My AR does too, and so does my Hi-Point 4595TS, Henry Big Boy 357, and a variety or pistols/revolvers. If need be, any of them would do.

 

[Dibbs]

^^^^^^^^^
Hey nothing wrong with that. I never fired one, but I hear nothing but good from the owners,
aside from occasional maintenance glitches. I just had to choose between the two, and I opted for
the flatter shooting 5.56 with legs, over the time tested and very popular M1 Carbine performer.

I guess my point is rather than compare the M1 Carbine to an AR, which seems an unfair
match-up, why not compare it to the similarly designed Mini, which shoots the AR15 caliber?
This is only opinion, but I would surmise that when originally selected by the Army, the 30
cal was a very effective short-range stopping caliber. For close in situations only, I would
take it over the 5.56, also.

 

[Nuclear]

Oh yeah, indoors an M1 Carbine is quieter than an AR15, as well as being lighter. I've never understood why an 18" barreled rifle with a steel receiver and wood stock is lighter than a 16" barreled rifle with aluminum receiver and plastic stock, but it is.

 

[lemaymiami]

No doubt a basic AR will do just fine as a defensive (or offensive) weapon. For me, the carbine was just a more interesting choice... so..

A few years back I bought a carbine - and planned on using it for the exact same task it was designed for... I did quite a bit of research and found that, loaded with soft point ammo (my choice was PPU soft points)-it was a very good choice for close quarters work (100 yards or less, better yet 50 yards or less). Mine was everything I wanted, lightweight, quite maneuverable, good ammo capacity with the standard 15 round mag - perfect for vehicle defense against more than one opponent.. What it wasn't was reliable. I have a Plainfield - the best of the commercial carbines if you can't afford a USGI carbine (getting more expensive by the day) or a Fulton (from what I've read a very good commercial carbine in current manufacture - but even more expensive than a USGI...). I did all the spring replacements, etc - but it still wouldn't get through a 15 round string without an occasional failure to feed, or failure to fire, etc. It was very accurate, had had hardly any use but that's as far as I went.

I still lack a vehicle defense weapon (if it's not reliable I'm better off without it...) and, at least to date, I'm reluctant to spend any more money on it... I've handled the new Ruger 9mm carbine at one store but can't say it is everything the carbine was (not particularly lightweight and at first impression I'm not thrilled with the sights that come with it). I've considered a Sig red dot for it - but once again the only way to know would be to buy and try...

I'm the opposite of a collector in any sense of the word - for me any firearm is just a tool - and if it doesn't fill the need - something else will. Back to that carbine - I like 'em, soft point ammo is the way to go for defensive purposes but spending good money on something that doesn't work reliably is just not going to happen again from this corner...

I have a basic 12 ga. riot gun for home defense - and it would be okay for vehicle defense - except that the tactics needed to employ it properly - wouldn't exactly be defensive... so it stays where it belongs, at home.

 

[fpgt72]

I wouldn’t consider using my M1 Carbine for defense as it’s too valuable. It’s a Saginaw SG with a stock cartouche that makes it desirable as a collectors item. I use it to shoot in M1 Carbine matches. (Successfully).

I can get AR’s all day long for just north of $500. My Saginaw will pull $1500+.
No brainer...

Yup if you use it, you will not see it again for a very long time.....if ever, and when you do you might not want it back. Ours sits in a basement....just sits....no care no nothing. Some have been here going on 4 years.

 

[Sistema1927]

If the need arises, my wife will pick up her 1943 Quality Hardware M1 Carbine loaded with 15 rounds of SP 110 out of a GI magazine.

However, she will only need to do that if a) I am not around, or b) I have failed to stop the threat with an AR.

 

[Jinx0760]

The question should be, Why doesn’t anyone make new, reliable magazines for the M1 carbine? Then followed by the ammo question.
I like my M1 Carbines, but they are pretty far down on the list of guns I would use for home defense.

Gunny, you are right on! I have a plethora of magazines for my carbine but reliability is a huge concern. I've tried shims, different brands and sizes...but to no avail.

 

[entropy]

My aunt's HD gun is my uncle's M1 carbine. She likes the light weight, and it's easy for her to load. She has a choice of many guns, but that's the one she likes. He loads SP's for her, they function well in it.

Like Sistema1927, it's for when he's not around.

 

[AK103K]

Gunny, you are right on! I have a plethora of magazines for my carbine but reliability is a huge concern. I've tried shims, different brands and sizes...but to no avail.

If youve tried the Korean mags, and youre still having a lot of problems, then you likely need to overhaul the bolt. Might as well do the recoil spring while youre at it.

With the three of my rifles Ive done the above to, the guns went from constant stoppages to rarely having one.

Numrich/Gun Parts has everything you need for the bolt, including the tool to do it, and they are pretty reasonable. Spend the few bucks more for a NOS USGI extractor. The cheaper, "new made" extractor they sell, didnt last real long for me. Havent had any issues with the GI extractors. It will cost you about $50 for the parts, including the recoil spring.

The tool is another $35 or so. You need the tool to do the swap, its not like an M1. Theres a good video on YouTube that shows how to change things out. Well worth the watch.

 

[fpgt72]

If youve tried the Korean mags, and youre still having a lot of problems, then you likely need to overhaul the bolt. Might as well do the recoil spring while youre at it.

With the three of my rifles Ive done the above to, the guns went from constant stoppages to rarely having one.

Numrich/Gun Parts has everything you need for the bolt, including the tool to do it, and they are pretty reasonable. Spend the few bucks more for a NOS USGI extractor. The cheaper, "new made" extractor they sell, didnt last real long for me. Havent had any issues with the GI extractors. It will cost you about $50 for the parts, including the recoil spring.

The tool is another $35 or so. You need the tool to do the swap, its not like an M1. Theres a good video on YouTube that shows how to change things out. Well worth the watch.

+1 here....for some strange reason everyone is quick to replace 80 year old parts in a garand, but in the little carbine, they don't and then people gripe about them not running. Mine run just fine (ibm and winchester if it matters) Wife has used them for high power games, and really likes it. She is also very small in stature and the only person I know that has ever gotten a bruise on her shoulder from an M1 Carbine....and yes she holds it correctly.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Most people use a pistol or revolver for HD. Inside a carbine is just too slow and unwieldy. I'm just not buying into all of the carbine recommendations for HD noise unless it's a woman's choice.

I have two carbines (mini and M1) and I don't use either one for HD. They both stay locked up in my safe.

I do have a 9mm pistol in my nightstand however.

I've found that USGI magazines run the best if everything else on your carbine is maintained and rebuilt periodically, including the bolt. Until you rebuild your bolt and replace the slide (op rod) spring don't blame the magazine. That's common knowledge in USGI carbine circles. I've never found a USGI mag (good condition) that wouldn't run in my carbine. Once upon a time I had about 20 of them.

 

[boom boom]

Most people use a pistol or revolver for HD. Inside a carbine is just too slow and unwieldy. I'm just not buying into all of the carbine recommendations for HD noise.

Depends on your home defense plan. Quite a few people rely only on long guns for self defense. Pistols are more portable, long arms including shotguns are more definitive in stopping threats. If holing up is your strategy then longarms make sense, if in movement, pistols are able to be carried from room to room much more easily. Handguns are also more difficult to acquire in certain jurisdictions while longarms are less regulated.

Handguns give more options outside of the home in most places because of easier concealment and portability. Long arms are mostly pretty obvious.

Some thugs will be deterred with a .22LR snubbie as most people do not want to be shot, but for those that aren't deterred. . . . .

Place your money and make your bets.

 

[Chuck R.]

Depends on the long gun.....something like this:



Is only slightly longer shouldered than a pistol held at a compressed ready, but carries a chit-load more ammo on board, is easier to hit with, in a more effective cartridge. Which is probably why a lot of guys on entry teams are not slinging their carbines and going in with pistols......

Like most things, it's a training/practice issue.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I am not a huge fan of the 5.56 as a military cartridge, but really believe one would have a hard time developing a better police and civilian home defense round. The 5.56's combination of velocity with a thin jacketed bullet gives excellent performance at typical urban engagement ranges. With the right load, one gets explosive tissue disruption with minimal concern of over penetration. The market reflects the round's popularity in this role by offering a huge selection of defense oriented rounds, many of which have been proven many times over and have outstanding street cred. The AR is available and economical. It is accurate, lightweight, and easy to customize to one's needs. It's ergonomics and low recoil make it easy to train with. It is really a nearly perfect set up for home defense, being lighter in weight and recoil, more compact and possessing more firepower than the shotgun, and being much easier for new or small statured shooters to use effectively. I don't see the M1 or any PCC as offering a single advantage over an AR in 5.56. The 5.56 is readily available in loads that are much more effective than anything you can load in the .30 Carbine, or a PCC. Comparing a 75 gr Hornady OTM @ 2700 fps to a bullet with 20 more grains of mass and over 700 fps less velocity isn't much of a comparison.

 

[kBob]

I am just comfortable with an M1 Carbine. I got my first at 14 and by the time I got issued my first XM16E1 I had put around 800 rounds through a carbine. Admittedly all my shooting was under 100 yards and most under 35. I used the sights to shoot small with, practiced the Daisy Quick Skill techniques against an old LP gas bottle with its top cut out (same quick feed back as modern plate shooting and yep FMJ went through front AND back) and spent some time doing hip ad underarm shooting from the 1950's Carbine marksmanship manual (also with the benefit of that steel feed back.)

I was under whellemed with the early performance of the AR15 system and did not trust it even though it was all I had.

I have used the M1 Carbine as a HD gun at various times. As a teen, that first one slept under my bed with a mag in place and an empty chamber (either Winchester or Remington Commercial HP or SP) When I got home from the service I used it the same while I went to college.

One of my later room mates bought one and used it for HD for a couple of years before she went back to a handgun she could keep in a lock box when she decided to take care of aging parents.

Dr. Martin Fackler had one by his bedside the last decade or so of his life as his home defense gun. He said to me he had no doubt that the carbine was capable of excellent use as a HD weapon. Next time you look at a gel test of something consider that the guy that made those test popular and standardized had no problem with the carbine round.

If you look at the Marshall and Sanow numbers on shooting with carbines using 110 grain ammunition in all types you will see 100 percent pass throughs in all their shooting data with the carbine, so penetration does not seem to be an issue. Now look at there one shot stop numbers IIRC they run right around 90 percent.

So if there ARE issues with the Carbine the ammunition is not amoung them.

I have heard al the arguments about magazine reliability so there may be something to those concerns....though I personally have never flattened a carbine magazine with a hammer to insure no one else tries to depend on it with their life....I have done a number of much newer AR mags that way.

70 year old parts....well I have a few parts almost that old I wish I could swap out as easy as say a recoil spring on a Carbine. My Mom in her Eighties still drives a 53 Ford and it ain't all the original parts. I have also had to swap out parts in dang near new guns on occasion.

Won't take a white light? Bubba can tell you that with applied science and duct tape about anything can take a white light. I have a commercial stock out in the shop I plan to try mounting a rail or two on. After I played with a S&W M76 in the 1970s set up like Heston's gun in Omega Man I taped a C cell ray-o-vac to my bayonet and learned a valuable lesson …..think it through.... first shot went though the edge of the lens system! Exciting and VERY embarrassing. Anyhow if you really want a white light I am sure you can figure out how to mount one.

There are after market mounts that will allow you to mount a red dot if you want one.

So really what it comes down to is are you comfortable with a carbine. Sure they ain't cheap. So that may make using one uncomfortable with you. Sure you teethed on an AR instead of a Carbine so you might be more comfortable with a AR.

As to this 86 grain ammo the OP asked about....I don't know show me some gel tests and some street numbers and let's talk about it over some venison you put on the table with it and I will give you an opinion.

As Stan Lee used to print....'Nuff Said!...but I know you Yancey Streeters will be back!

-kBob

edit /PS If you must know My current primary HD gun is and M4-ish with a red dot but I would not be UNCOMFOTABLE with a Carbine I had experience with.

 

[AK103K]

I think one of the 10.5" AR's is probably the sweet spot for a long gun indoors, but the thought of the muzzle blast from it inside, hurts my ears just thinking about it. I keep one thats suppressed with a light on it next to the bed at night, and even that wouldnt be fun indoors. Better than the alternative though I guess. That suppressor makes it longer and heavier too though, so it kind of negates the shorter barrel.

My Glock 17 is also in my pants next to the bed, and more likely the choice, at least initially. I really dont relish the idea of letting it off indoors either, and even if it were suppressed.

Im not liking the idea of the carbine fired off indoors either.

Im thinking a good set of electronic muffs would be a good thing to have with whatever you choose.

Carbines are fun, and if its all you got, Im sure would work, as long as youre familiar enough with it to deal with the stoppages (and you know how Murphy works). But then again, and realistically, that goes for anything you choose.

Again, if its all you got, its all you got, and the choice is basically made for you. I just think if you have options, a realistic evaluation of things will make the choice fairly easy enough. Im lucky enough to have some choices, and this is what I choose.....

 

[MikeInOr]

I have owned my carbine for about 30 years now. My carbine has always been reliable and served as a bed side gun for many years when I couldn't afford more than the $150 I spent on the carbine. It seemed like a big step up from a .22 rifle for protection. .30 carbine was the first cartridge I ever reloaded and I still load my own.

I much prefer a hand gun for defense but would not rule out my ole M1 carbine for defense. It is an MUCH nicer and smoother shooter than my PC9... which is just a gas gun vs a blow back gun thing. The M1 carbine is also noticeably lighter than my PC9. I don't own an AR and never really wanted one. I would probably take a Mini 14 with a folding stock or a Tavor or a Sig MCX with folding stock over an AR.

It seems like it would not take much to figure out how to attach a flashlight to the bayonet lug. I just used a barrel clip and maglite back in the day.

To each their own!

 

[amd6547]

Put me down as a fan of the M1 Carbine. The first longarm I bought was a Plainfield M1 Carbine. Unlike the previous poster, mine worked perfectly, and was very accurate. At one point, I had to have a Mini 14, and sold the Plainfield to help pay for it.
Regretted it the first time I shot the Mini, which was less accurate at 50yds than the Carbine had been at 100.
Owned a few different AR’s over the years, still have one I put together that I like to shoot.
But the Carbine to me, just has a lively feel in the hands, like a fine sporting rifle. The Mini 14 feels like a rifle-shaped brick, by comparison.
The cartridge has an appropriate power level for an urban rifle, and new cartridges like Critical Defense make it even better.
I bought an Inland Carbine when CMP had a large bunch of them a few years ago. It has been faultless in operation, and the accuracy at 100yds is great. Bought a bunch of 15rd GI mags from CMP and none that I’ve used have ever caused a problem. The few Korean mags I’ve tried have worked fine.

Recently, I was considering getting one of the Ruger 9mm carbines. While searching around, I found an Auto Ordnance folding stock Carbine for a decent price, about what the Ruger would cost. If it checks out at the range, maybe I will park my Inland.

 

[jmorris]

I could load these myself easily, but there’s always that “handloads for self defense” legal issue.

I don’t load for self defense but I also own a number of calibers that I don’t have factory loaded ammunition for only my loads. If it was shoot my reloads or die, that’s a pretty simple decision.

It makes it even easier because I haven’t seen a single case, where an otherwise justified SD case put the victim in legal jeopardy because of the ammunition.

To your question the reason businesses don’t or quit making a product is because they don’t think would or didn’t make them money.

The reason they make things is because they make money or they think they might.

In other words if you get enough folks asking the right people why they don’t make a certain product, then they just might.

 

[fpgt72]

I think I have been reloading for 10-15 years or so now, never an issue. In fact I have had more bad factory blammo then stuff hand rolled by me.