Accidentally firing a 8mm Mauser in a Model 70 .06

[Elbert P . Suggins]

My grandson has been shooting my dads pre-war Model 70 30-06 of 1940 vintage for a couple of years now. But yesterday got a Mauser 8mm chambered and fired by accident because some loose rounds were picked up in a drawer which happened to have a couple of Mauser rounds in their also. An out of the pocket and into the drawer thing. He had been target shooting at a 100 yards with a mounted Leopold scope on a table with lead sled. Now the Winchester is more accurate in the sense that 3 out of 5 rounds almost touch each other whereas before, the grouping was farther apart. What did that 8mm do, clean the barrel out so it is more accurate or what? It didn't seem to damage the barrel. Brings new meaning to case form firing!

 

[Atticum]

maybe hes focusing a littler harder since he knew he screwed up

 

[redneckrepairs]

first off its a testimonial to the old Winchesters that the action held during the overpressure this incident had to create . as far as the accuracy increase you saw with this i would only speculate that no matter the manner you " lapped " the barrel . The accuracy may well be short lived , and in fact you may need a new barrel on it soon due to this " fire lapping " method lol . I never tried it , but honestly did not think that my mod 70 would chamber an 8mm without a jack on the bolt lol .

 

[rbernie]

honestly did not think that my mod 70 would chamber an 8mm without a jack on the bolt

That's actually a good point - he may not have actually fired a 7.92x57 round at all. I can see no way for the oversized (.323) bullet to have chambered into the leade of the 30-06 rifle even if the first half inch of the barrel is completely eroded away.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Whatever you do don't let your grandson have access to any .35 remington ctgs. when he's firing the .30-06.

 

[redneckrepairs]

rbernie , all i can see is some setback , it would mean a hard bolt close to press the bullet back , but is not undoable imho . the case dont prevent it as far as leinght goes ( i dont have an 8mm and am running off memory from 30 years ago or so ) . but damm i aint gonna " abuse an action like the forces i suspect to chamber a round .

Hey 351 i have an old rem .35 pump ( 141? ) too . fantastic rifle that my grandma took too many elk to count and 2 bear with . I dont keep ammo for it ( other than one box ) simply because its not a " plains rifle " and thusly worth more to me as heritage than utility .

 

[barnetmill]

There is a story that one reason winchester discontinued the model 95 winchester is that people did fire 8 mm rounds in it and the guns were ruined. If a 8 X 57 was fired there would be the deformed case left over that would so indicate what was fire. The report and likely the recoil would have been difference. There also a big difference between some military loads and some american load ammo in that the military ammo is much more powerfull. On the hunting 8mm ammo the bullet may also have a shorter overlength and with the lighter load may not develope so much pressure when fired in a .308 bore. But without the expended case it is difficult to know what happened.

 

[Elbert P . Suggins]

Thanks for the responses. They were off the shelf Federal 8mm Mauser 170 grain soft point that I had used previously and he did say it was hard to pull the bolt down into lock position. He didn't have to beat on it though. Thats how I found out what happened because he told me one round was tough to get chambered. And then I broke into the cold sweat! What does lap the barrel mean? So what Millimeter is a 30-06 anyway? I just called my gunsmith who works on guns in Montana, Washington, and Idaho and he said that is the third time he has heard of a Mauser round being shot out of an 06. He said don't worry about but for Christ's sake don't let the kid shoot a whole box of Mausers thru my dad's 70!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Holy Chit Man!

I'm not disputing your word, but do you have the fired case? It's hard to believe any rifle would withstand that -- some of the so-called "low number" Springfields were blown up by people shooting 8X57 ammo in them.

 

[ArmedBear]

My wild guess would be that factory 8mm Mauser rounds are loaded to a very low pressure, compared even to factory .30-06 hunting rounds.

A quick look at Federal's site shows a MV at least 500 fps lower than standard .30-06.

I wouldn't do it again, but that could explain why there appear to be no consequences. Guns are proofed at far higher pressures than standard cartridges.

works on guns in Montana, Washington, and Idaho

Does he have a gunsmith bus or something?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'd love to see a picture of the fired case -- the Model 70 is not supposed to have good gas-handling capabilities, according to the "experts."

 

[bonza]

Elbert asked:

So what Millimeter is a 30-06 anyway?

Thirty calibers are generally 7.62mm, for eg. the europeans refer to the .30/06 as the 7.62x63mm (the 63mm being the length of the case). So, as you can see, an 8x57mm could quite possibly chamber in a .30/06, despite the larger bullet diameter, due to its 5mm shorter case.

 

[Elbert P . Suggins]

ArmedBear, my gunsmith works out of Winchester, Idaho and people send him guns to work on from other states. I am sure he doesn't travel. I know the waiting time from past experience is 2-4 months for him to repair something. I usually like to fix things over the phone with him just for that reason. And I am trying work things out so I can post a photo of the empty Mauser round so you might have to wait on that one. But he did reassure me my dad's gun would be fine.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

an 8x57mm could quite possibly chamber in a .30/06, despite the larger bullet diameter, due to its 5mm shorter case.

You are exactly right. In fact, I would be surprised to find a .30-06 that would not chamber an 8X57 Mauser round.

But I would be (and am) surprised to find somone fired that 8X57 without wrecking the rifle.

 

[rcmodel]

I am not surprised at all the Model 70 action held.

American SAAMI spec 8mm Mauser ammo is down-loaded to only 35,000 PSI, which is lower then the 30-30 Winchester at 42,000.

It was done in part because of old Mauser rifles of questionable linage.
And in part because folks just kept shooting them in 30-06 rifles either by mistake or ignorance.

It takes way more then a .323" bullet in a .308" bore at that low pressure level to blow up a Model 70.

I wouldn't be so sure on a 8mm Mauser German mil-spec, or European commercial load though.

rc

 

[barnetmill]

Holy Chit Man!

I'm not disputing your word, but do you have the fired case? It's hard to believe any rifle would withstand that -- some of the so-called "low number" Springfields were blown up by people shooting 8X57 ammo in them

The original low number springfields were known for blowing up with service issue us service ammo prior to WWI at the military firing ranges. At the arsenal the temperature for heat treatment was controled visually according to the operators eyesight and the could vary significantly according to the ambient lighting resulting in some actions being very brittle. Some were alright and others were not depending on the furnance temparture.

I would think that a properly heat treated springfield would hold together and vent a lot gas.

Another studid thing is to fire .35 rem in a 7.7 arisaka. I think that does blow the gun up. .35 to .311 is worse pressure wise than .323 to .308

 

[ArmedBear]

Well, Elbert, I won't ask his name, because you probably don't want to wait even longer for your guns back.

 

[Slamfire]

Lets assume that he did shoot an 8mm down the barrel.

I believe it is possible. It is possible that the bullet swaged down in the throat and went down the barrel without creating pressures that would have blown the case.

A collector of high priced 03's, claimed he shot 8mm in a couple of low number 03's, posted the pictures to show that the rifles did not blow up.

(When too many angry people told him that what he did was impossible, he took the pictures down. I was not able to get copies of the pictures, and the guy was so miffed at the responses he got, he ignores emails on this topic, even though he is a frequent poster on things 03 on Jouster.com)

It is entirely possible that nothing bad happened to this rifle. If something bad happened it would be in the ream of the metal exceeding its ultimate. If the receiver/bolt stretched, than that would be bad.

I would recommend that the head space be checked, the lugs examined for evidence of set back, and if possible, an examination of setback for the receiver locking area.

If there is no evident change in headspace, nothing looks as though the metal flowed or was indented, than I would go shoot it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It takes way more then a .323" bullet in a .308" bore at that low pressure level to blow up a Model 70.

That's why I'd like to see a picture of the case. If it ruptured, the Model 70 doesn't have the best gas-handling capabilities and the shooter was lucky not to get a face-full of gas.

The original low number springfields were known for blowing up with service issue us service ammo prior to WWI at the military firing ranges.

There were several reasons the low-numbered Springfields blew up, including cases where 8X57 service ammo was fired in them and cases where the tin-plated bullets soldered themselves to the cases.

The Springfield is unique in one respect -- we know other service rifles (Mausers, Lee-Enfields, etc.) blew up in service, but there are no records available on those rifles for study. So it's difficult to say the low-number Springfields were generally more prone to blowups than other countries' rifles.

 

[Art Eatman]

The reason for the Springfield blowups was improper case-hardening of the receiver ring where the bolt lugs engaged. Embrittlement. Once they went to a double-heat treat and made some metallurgical change (nickel, IIRC), the problem ended. You can Google for the arsenals and serial numbers. One arsenal, it was any rifle below 800,000. I disremember the other.

Remington, in testing their then-new Model 721 for advertising purposes, loaded .30-06 rounds with a caseful of 4064 and a 220-grain bullet. They tested a Springfield, a Model 70, a 1917 Enfield and the 721. The Springfield locked up with the first shot.

They then forced a second 220-grain bullet into the barrel ahead of the leade and inserted a round. The style of failure of the Model 70 was that the bolt locked up. I don't recall if the case ruptured or blew out the primer, but the rifle did not suffer "unwanted disassembly".

The Enfield survived three bullets, sorta, and the 721 still would cycle after using four bullets.

Do not try this at home.

 

[Elbert P . Suggins]

ArmedBear, in response to your inquiry on the gunsmith, I sent you a personal email with the information. Elbert

 

[Birdhunter1]

I have read on rimfirecentral.com where a guy fired a .22 LR in a 17 HMR and afterwards the gun was completely different, I think the guy quoted his groups shrunk 50%. Not something I am going to try.

 

[fatelk]

Yes, it is absolutely possible to fire an 8mm in an '06. No, I have never done it, but I have seen the fire-formed brass personally, and have also read about it in old gun magazines.

I sure as heck wouldn't do it on purpose, but I imagine that the round would headspace on the bullet after pushing it back in the case, then fireform the case to the '06 chamber. The lower pressure from the lighter loading and the larger chamber, I would think, would be offset by the higher pressure from the force needed to swage a .015" larger diameter projectile down the bore. Apparantly the pressure is not too great, because this is the fifth or sixth time I've heard about this happening, and I've never heard of a rifle blown up from it.

Now, as others have said, take a full-load military or European 8mm round, especially with a thick FMJ or steel core bullet, and I would expect the results to be quite different.

On a related note, someone once gave me a bunch of brass they had collected. There were a few ".303 Savage" empties mixed in. As any old-timer or cartridge collector knows, the .303 Savage was a lever-action round from way back, very similar to the .30-30 Winchester. These, however, looked very odd, being blown out (fire-formed) and bulged real bad. I went and got a fired .303 British and compared the two- sure enough!

"Well, dang, JimBob, these here three-oh-three boolits jist ain't workin' right in my ole three-oh-three. I caint hit nuthin, and they aint workin' right in the clip"

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The reason for the Springfield blowups was improper case-hardening of the receiver ring where the bolt lugs engaged. Embrittlement. Once they went to a double-heat treat and made some metallurgical change (nickel, IIRC), the problem ended.

Yes there were brittle receivers. But it's not that simple.

"One thing made evident by these tests is the fact that the weakest feature of the modern military actions is the cartridge case itself. In the Springfield rifle the head of the cartridge cases projects out of the rear end of the chamber a distance of from 0.147 to 0.1485; in other words, there is a space of well over an eighth of an inch where the pressure is held in only by the brass." (See Hatcher p 205.)

Some cases were clearly attributable to brittle brass, which allowed gas to escape into the action.

Between 1917 and 1929 there were 68 burst receivers. Of the 68 no serial number were available for 11 receivers, four of those that failed in 1917. Two of the 68 were made at Springfield Armory and had serial numbers in the 950,000 range. Of the remaining 57 receivers 33 were manufactured by Springfield Armory and 24 by Rock Island. Hatcher provided the serial number and the date of failure for all 33 Springfield Armory receivers, and the same data for 22 of the 24 Rock Island receivers (see Hatcher, pp 442-447).

In several known cases, the rifles burst firing ammuniton with tin plated bullets. The tin plating was applied to cut metal fouling, and in storage the bullets cold-soldered themselves to the cases. This ammuntion was know to produce very high pressures and was withdrawn.

There are also know cases of Springfields bursting from 8X57 rounds being fired in them.

 

[Floppy_D]

WOW.

Edit: I know that's a useless post, but I needed to say it. WOW.