Let me start off by saying that i love my lee turret press. And it is VERY CONSISTANT. However is it just me or does EVERY single hole weigh .2g light? I'm going by the chart they have for w231 and using the appropriate disks. the hole thats suppose to be used for 5.3g is measuring 5.1g. Also the hole that is suppose to be for 4.9g weighs in at 4.7g. Now i'm not complaining because all i have to do is adjust for it and it does weigh right on the dime every time, all that i have checked have weighed exactly .2g light from what the chart says. Am i the only one, or have any of you expierienced the same thing? What would be the cause of this? Maybe insurance on Lee's part?????
accuracy of the Lee turret powder measure disks...
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Gadzooks Mike
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Most do seem to weigh light, at least in the powders I've used. I throw 5 or 6 charges and if it's still light (usually is) and consistant (usually is) then I switch to a bigger hole.
I've found them to be off as well. I would think it's Lee being conservative for those who do not have a scale, combined with variances in powder density in various lots of the same powder. Either way the chart does give you a rough idea of where to start.
2popfire
Member
It depends....
...on which powder you are using. I find Unique will vary as much as 2 tenths while Bullseye seems to be right on the nose each time. Just my limited experience YMMV.
Joe
...on which powder you are using. I find Unique will vary as much as 2 tenths while Bullseye seems to be right on the nose each time. Just my limited experience YMMV.
Joe
SSN Vet
Member
The charge weighs what it weighs... and what's important is that the dropped weight is consistant from one charge to the next... And the AutoDisk system isn very consistant, especially with ball powders.
What your experiencing is very typical of new reloaders who are starting out with Lee equipment, and that is the tabulated VMD values always give light charges....
There's two reasons for this....
1. Lee gets more new reloaders set up economically than any other company, and they support the concept of using volume only powder measurements. So the VMD values are conservative and (imo) intentionally drop light, assuming that many new guys aren't buying a scale.
2. The actual VMD will vary from lot to lot and also with the environmental conditions (especially humidity). So again, Lee publishes conservative numbers.
What new guys don't realize is that the tables are not intended to yield a spot on charge weight, first try every time. Rather, they give the guy without a scale, a safe charge. And they get everybody else in the ball park.
There are no shortcuts to getting spot on charge setups with the Auto Disk system....
First, you have to have an accurate scale. And imo, the Lee safety scale is not a bad one to start with. Though it is slower and more cumbersome than a good balance beam, they are amazingly accurate. I've tested mine against a $500 lab. scale at work and it is right on the money.
Second, you have to take and keep good notes. Then you will be able to repeat your desired set ups without going through multiple iterations.
Rule of thumb with the Lee table is to start one or two disk sizes higher than the table shows. And weigh a series of charges.
So in summary, it's got nothing to do with the powder drop and everything to do with the tables being conservative.
We really could use a sticky on this question, as it has to have come up a hundred times.
What your experiencing is very typical of new reloaders who are starting out with Lee equipment, and that is the tabulated VMD values always give light charges....
There's two reasons for this....
1. Lee gets more new reloaders set up economically than any other company, and they support the concept of using volume only powder measurements. So the VMD values are conservative and (imo) intentionally drop light, assuming that many new guys aren't buying a scale.
2. The actual VMD will vary from lot to lot and also with the environmental conditions (especially humidity). So again, Lee publishes conservative numbers.
What new guys don't realize is that the tables are not intended to yield a spot on charge weight, first try every time. Rather, they give the guy without a scale, a safe charge. And they get everybody else in the ball park.
There are no shortcuts to getting spot on charge setups with the Auto Disk system....
First, you have to have an accurate scale. And imo, the Lee safety scale is not a bad one to start with. Though it is slower and more cumbersome than a good balance beam, they are amazingly accurate. I've tested mine against a $500 lab. scale at work and it is right on the money.
Second, you have to take and keep good notes. Then you will be able to repeat your desired set ups without going through multiple iterations.
Rule of thumb with the Lee table is to start one or two disk sizes higher than the table shows. And weigh a series of charges.
So in summary, it's got nothing to do with the powder drop and everything to do with the tables being conservative.
We really could use a sticky on this question, as it has to have come up a hundred times.
I agree with SSN Vet, I find the recommended disks a little light. I alway start one disk size larger than the recommended disk and drop 10 charges, weight it and then divide by 10....I like simple math. Most of the time that works by as always YMMV....ALWAYS ALWAYS weigh your charges when setting up a new load.
Dudemeister
Member
It depends on the powder
I too find the Lee Autodisc to be off. But as previously said, it's very depended on the powder you use.
I use Trail Boss, and the charges I get a .5gr light. BUT, the important thing is that they are very, very consistent, no more than 0.1gr either way.
I bought the Pro update to get the adjustable charge bar, but after fussing with it for a while, I found it to be very inconsistent, so I went back to the disc. At least with that, once I know what to expect, I can make my own adjustments (use the the next hole up), and get that drop every time I pull the handle.
I too find the Lee Autodisc to be off. But as previously said, it's very depended on the powder you use.
I use Trail Boss, and the charges I get a .5gr light. BUT, the important thing is that they are very, very consistent, no more than 0.1gr either way.
I bought the Pro update to get the adjustable charge bar, but after fussing with it for a while, I found it to be very inconsistent, so I went back to the disc. At least with that, once I know what to expect, I can make my own adjustments (use the the next hole up), and get that drop every time I pull the handle.
coloradokevin
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I also have the Lee Classic Turret Press, and I've had the same experience as the OP, while using Power Pistol powder. Most of my charges fall about 0.2grains light when using this measure. At least it isn't a heavier than expected charge. But, since it seems to be consistently light, it seems like they could have made them consistently correct!
I agree with the reasons and explanations that were given by SSN Vet, but I still think Lee could have made their data a bit more accurate, at least given the results I've had with the powder that I meter through their unit. And, again, the Lee scale does work, and is accurate in my case. But it is a SLOW beast to use.
I agree with the reasons and explanations that were given by SSN Vet, but I still think Lee could have made their data a bit more accurate, at least given the results I've had with the powder that I meter through their unit. And, again, the Lee scale does work, and is accurate in my case. But it is a SLOW beast to use.
dickttx
Member
Somewhere in Lee's literature, instructions, reloading manual, etc., they say that the disks are intentionally light, because of the different densities of powders. As someone mentioned above, my experience with Unique, is that it is about two holes light. HP38 has been pretty much right on. Those are the only two powders I have used so far. Once I have settled on a disk cavity I have found both powders to be extremely consistent. I have even weighted the first drop from the measure and found it to be right on. I have also left powder in the measure overnight and found it to be right on the first drop the next day.
Lost Sheep
Member
Not just the Auto-Disk
Lee's powder dippers throw light, also.
I don't know if it is that the cavities are smaller than the volume on the label or the table is off. But that distinction is academic anyway. The important thing is that it is consistent each time (or rather, how consistent it is)
Remember that each gun is a law unto itself, and that the published guidelines are just that, guidelines. A given powder charge (with the other equally important factors; brass, primer, bullet weight, bullet construction and crimp strength) will deliver the pressure it delivers regardless of what the charge weight is and regardless of what the manual says. Guideline.
If you are midrange, (not too light with slow powders and not too heavy with any powders) the weight dropped by a volumetric measure is less important than if you are at the edge of the performance envelope. Then you start looking not only at the true weights, but the ACTUAL pressures delivered by ANY charge weight, even if it is less than the maximum you find in a loading manual. You look at primer flattening, case mouth cracking, sticky extraction and the dozen other indicators of too-high pressure.
Regarding volume measure vs weight measure and regardless of what Lee's chart SAYS, with pressure, how you get there is less important than what you get.
As far as exact weight goes. Lee's chart is just a piece of paper. You can make your own chart just as easily and safely as you can make your own ammunition.
Lost Sheep
Lee's powder dippers throw light, also.
I don't know if it is that the cavities are smaller than the volume on the label or the table is off. But that distinction is academic anyway. The important thing is that it is consistent each time (or rather, how consistent it is)
Remember that each gun is a law unto itself, and that the published guidelines are just that, guidelines. A given powder charge (with the other equally important factors; brass, primer, bullet weight, bullet construction and crimp strength) will deliver the pressure it delivers regardless of what the charge weight is and regardless of what the manual says. Guideline.
If you are midrange, (not too light with slow powders and not too heavy with any powders) the weight dropped by a volumetric measure is less important than if you are at the edge of the performance envelope. Then you start looking not only at the true weights, but the ACTUAL pressures delivered by ANY charge weight, even if it is less than the maximum you find in a loading manual. You look at primer flattening, case mouth cracking, sticky extraction and the dozen other indicators of too-high pressure.
Regarding volume measure vs weight measure and regardless of what Lee's chart SAYS, with pressure, how you get there is less important than what you get.
As far as exact weight goes. Lee's chart is just a piece of paper. You can make your own chart just as easily and safely as you can make your own ammunition.
Lost Sheep
ranger335v
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"accuracy of the Lee turret powder measure disks... "
Well, it's the measure you're refering too, not the turret press itself. Any fixed chamber measure puts out the same volume per charge, the powder density by volume varies by production lot. No way to make a self-compensating measureing system, nor does it really matter for most handgun ammo.
Well, it's the measure you're refering too, not the turret press itself. Any fixed chamber measure puts out the same volume per charge, the powder density by volume varies by production lot. No way to make a self-compensating measureing system, nor does it really matter for most handgun ammo.
dickttx
Member
As a follow-up: Went out and emptied some 45 ACP this afternoon. Came back in and set up to load them back up. I had been using 6.4gn of Unique. Got out my turret w/dies installed. Installed powder measure, sprinkling powdered graphite on the base and on the top of the disk. Table says #71 cavity will drop 6.5gn. I had been using #82 for the 6.4.
After assembling the powder measure with the #82 I poured the hopper full from a 4# container of Unique. I opened the powder measure hopper, ran a case through the sizer, seated a primer, dumped the powder charge and weighed it. 6.4gn on the nose. Weighed the first 5, then every tenth one with an additional one occasionally, and the last one(#100). Not one was off by more than the width of the markings on my Dillon balance beam scale. That is pretty consistent.
After assembling the powder measure with the #82 I poured the hopper full from a 4# container of Unique. I opened the powder measure hopper, ran a case through the sizer, seated a primer, dumped the powder charge and weighed it. 6.4gn on the nose. Weighed the first 5, then every tenth one with an additional one occasionally, and the last one(#100). Not one was off by more than the width of the markings on my Dillon balance beam scale. That is pretty consistent.
evan price
Member
Lee does this on purpose because there can be variances. What they mean when they give a powder drop in a given disc hole is that it will NOT EXCEED the listed amount. Obviously it will then be less. I wind up getting close and if that's not good enough I make my hole bigger.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I think somewhere in the paperwork Lee warns the chart might not be perfect. I use a lot of W231 and find it's a little off just like you said. Some powders are heavier and some are right on the money. I don't know of any powder measure that's exactly on the weight they claim by the numbers.
Notoast
Member
To compute the VMD for your powder, divide the volume of the disk's charge hole by the weight of powder that is dropped and round off to 4 decimals. Do this several times and compute an average. Write this number on your powder bottle.
To use your VMD, multiply your desired powder charge by the VMD to get the approximate charge hole volume.
To use your VMD, multiply your desired powder charge by the VMD to get the approximate charge hole volume.
SSN Vet
Member
Yup, I record this number as VMD* and it's only "good" for that bottle of powder.
Just out of curiosity, do any other of the manufacturers even bother publishing this kind of VMD table? Or do they just leave it to the customer to go through mutliple iterations and to make adjustments untill they get the charge weight they desire? It seems that Lee gets a lot of flack over the table. I think it's really intended as a guide and not a replacement for the experimental process.
How are you guys reeming out youd disks? I'd love to tweek a couple of mine.
TheCracker
Member
I've had very good luck with Universal clays ( tiny flake powder) being spot on with the charts.
In the stick powders like varget and 4064 I do come in .1-.3 light.
I've found that H335 is EXACTLY what they listed it as even when stacking different sized disks. This is the only ball powder ive ever used.
I would think the smaller flakes and ball types would be closer to what they have listed and obviously they meter more consistently.
In the stick powders like varget and 4064 I do come in .1-.3 light.
I've found that H335 is EXACTLY what they listed it as even when stacking different sized disks. This is the only ball powder ive ever used.
I would think the smaller flakes and ball types would be closer to what they have listed and obviously they meter more consistently.
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