mcdonl
Member
Ok, so... you wait for the pitbull to have your childs face in his mouth? Are you sure?
Almost shot neighbor's dog, right or wrong?
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Ok, so... you wait for the pitbull to have your childs face in his mouth? Are you sure?
Cosmoline
Member
As I already said, you would need to get your child back away from danger. You stand between the dog and the child.
That's a good question. It would likely need to be drawn. That said, having been at the business end of these beasts before I'm not keen on relying on a firearm in general. The dogs are too small, fast and if attacking they're located way too close to too many of your own important parts. I don't like the angle. But if you could get the dog in the right position with good ground below it, you would want to be ready to shoot it fast.
Thrown into this mix is the simple fact that almost all dog charges--even from pits--are bluffs. An untrained dog is a fear biter who will nail your backside or calf muscles if you run. If you stand your ground they will usually be perplexed and wary, growling and sniffing around then leaving. I've had more run ins than I can easily remember on my bike, and the dogs always back off when I stop.
Taken together, all of these factors and my own experiences with big hunds have led me away from relying on firearms to deal with problem dogs. And I haven't even gotten into the emotional issues raised if you shoot another person's pet. Murders have been committed for much less. In shooting a dog that was never really a threat to you, you may well give rise to an armed and enraged human--and nothing is more dangerous than that.
I'll take my chances and risk a bite. I'm a big boy.
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Jonah71
Member
If your first responsibility isn't to your child....... you shouldn't have the child.
NavyLCDR
member
Cosmoline said:
How did it get from shooting a dog and accidentally hitting the owner to blowing a woman's head off. Who let the goddamn Brady bunch in here? You sound just like the anti-gun whackjobs now.
mcdonl
Member
As the young and cool say... tru dat...
I guess like any other SD scenario, it will require a lot of quick decisions supported by much training and drilling. Other then avoidance and retreat, none of the training and drilling I have had the privilege of attending/performing involve escalation of force. I am not saying it is not a good idea, but I am only comfortable with safe use of a firearm for SD, not escalation from fists, pepper spray then firearm.
I think the OP may have been able to do things differently, but in the end... no one was hurt.
gc70
Member
Worried about ricochets?
Cosmoline
Member
That's a new one. I've only had one ND in all the tens of thousands of rounds I've fired. Just the one. But I will never forget the feeling before I knew whether the room I hit was occupied or not. Thankfully, nobody was there, nobody was hurt or even aware that it had happened. But I will not forget that lesson. The bullet cannot be taken back. This is not a game and it's not about being a macho dad. If you're carrying you have responsibilities.
You simply need to understand the very real risks you're taking and take responsibility for your shots. If your math comes out different from mine, so be it. You roll the dice, you take your chances. But don't assume this scenario is as clear-cut as shooting some stray or that it should be taken as lightly.
I'm worried about direct hits because the woman is in the line of fire. It's no different than shooting at a target at the range when a man is standing a few yards behind it. Hoping that your angle will be deep enough to avoid hitting the human is madness. Make that target a fast-moving and small one, coming towards you, and the risk of hitting the other end of the leash is even greater. There is no safe way to take the shot in those circumstances, so it should not be taken.
Others looking at this scenario may be more confident of their abilities to make the shot. Personally I couldn't see risking it.
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sheepdog
Member
...If some research on documented attacks by large dogs is done...one will find that they are almost impossible to stop bare-handed....that dogs often show no effects of pepper spray's having any effect on them...that it's extremely hard to strangle a dog, that it often takes several shots to kill them...and yet some folks say the things they've posted here...it's either ignorance or idiocy...
...I agree with Cosmoline this far...that every bullet fired would be MY responsibility...there is no getting around that fact...and, only if the owner loosed the dog with obvious intent that the dog attack would the owner be deserving of being shot...then, he/she would be guilty of assaulting me with a dangerous weapon and self-defense would apply...a very unlikely situation to find oneself in while in our own yard...
... the civil liability of the owner doesn't interest me in the least...I'm only concerned with protecting myself and my family in this situation...or another being attacked...and could care less about juries and insurance and civil courts...it's all about keeping me and mine from being seriously harmed...
...I agree with Cosmoline this far...that every bullet fired would be MY responsibility...there is no getting around that fact...and, only if the owner loosed the dog with obvious intent that the dog attack would the owner be deserving of being shot...then, he/she would be guilty of assaulting me with a dangerous weapon and self-defense would apply...a very unlikely situation to find oneself in while in our own yard...
... the civil liability of the owner doesn't interest me in the least...I'm only concerned with protecting myself and my family in this situation...or another being attacked...and could care less about juries and insurance and civil courts...it's all about keeping me and mine from being seriously harmed...
I'm going to try to not really get into this argument, as I would have been hesitant to shoot in the direction of the owner, as well, but at the same time I would do whatever needed to be done to protect my family.
Yes, a few bites and even some scars are better than accidentally killing an innocent person. At the same time a serious dog can do some serious harm, and I wouldn't want to take that chance either. I guess I can't really say without being there. A clear shot from a safe angle would be a different matter, but you would have to have a clear head to make that decision in those few seconds.
It sounds like the OP did good in this case, and who knows what decision he would have made had the dog got away from it's owner and charged? I just hope that something like this never happens to me, or if it did that I would have the presence of mind and good judgment to make the right decision.
My experience with pitbulls has been limited. A couple years ago a new neighbor had some kind of pitbull-boxer mix that would go berserk and lung at the fence when he saw my kids in my backyard (yes, they were too young to think about teasing him). I was worried about him jumping the fence. I put strips on the fence so he couldn't see through as well, and went over and talked to them about it. "Oh, he's such a sweetheart, he would never hurt anyone", as his eyes glow red and blood drips from his fangs. From then on, though, they were very good about watching him and bringing him in when he barked.
An acquaintance had a couple of pitbulls that he doted on. He would tell he how they were so sweet and non-aggressive and good with kids, but then I heard one day that the male had attacked the female then turned on him when he tried to get them apart. He said he had to beat it to death with a shovel just to get away.
Yes, a few bites and even some scars are better than accidentally killing an innocent person. At the same time a serious dog can do some serious harm, and I wouldn't want to take that chance either. I guess I can't really say without being there. A clear shot from a safe angle would be a different matter, but you would have to have a clear head to make that decision in those few seconds.
It sounds like the OP did good in this case, and who knows what decision he would have made had the dog got away from it's owner and charged? I just hope that something like this never happens to me, or if it did that I would have the presence of mind and good judgment to make the right decision.
I don't mean to offend you, but I am curious as to which is true: is a pitbull a nice little puppy that can be warded off with a few well-placed kicks, or is it a raging demon that can only be stopped with multiple barrages of heavy-caliber artillery?
My experience with pitbulls has been limited. A couple years ago a new neighbor had some kind of pitbull-boxer mix that would go berserk and lung at the fence when he saw my kids in my backyard (yes, they were too young to think about teasing him). I was worried about him jumping the fence. I put strips on the fence so he couldn't see through as well, and went over and talked to them about it. "Oh, he's such a sweetheart, he would never hurt anyone", as his eyes glow red and blood drips from his fangs. From then on, though, they were very good about watching him and bringing him in when he barked.
An acquaintance had a couple of pitbulls that he doted on. He would tell he how they were so sweet and non-aggressive and good with kids, but then I heard one day that the male had attacked the female then turned on him when he tried to get them apart. He said he had to beat it to death with a shovel just to get away.
I've been bitten a couple of times also, once by 2 Shepherds. One thing that does agitate a prospective biter is yelling, which most people do. I prefer hissing, now that really makes an attacking dog slow down or even stop. You ought to try it sometime, it works.
sheepdog
Member
...kinda hard to hiss when your anal muscles are flappin like a card on a bicycle spoke and you're lookin' at a set of teeth that can tear chunks out of wherever they land...try it sometime...hiss indeed....
Deanimator
Member
Ohio for one. Show me in the Ohio Revised Code (ORC) where I have a LEGAL DUTY to let a dog bite me because it's on a leash when it's doing so?
The idea that you must allow yourself or a child to be mauled by a vicious dog because the NEGLIGENT owner is in close proximity, is legally risible. SHE created the situation by failing to properly control the animal, thereby creating a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. NOBODY has a legal duty to know your dog's moods or unarmed self-defense against dogs. If your dog creates in others a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, deadly force may be used against it. Don't like it? CONTROL YOUR DOG.
What we are seeing here is the attitude that the life of a dog trumps the life and health of humans, in particular children.
As I said, my answer is "NO, I refuse". Fortunately, the State of Ohio is FIRMLY on my side in this one. Not only am I not going to be charged with anything, the owner herself will be cited for failing to control the dog.
Cosmoline
Member
It has nothing to do with the dog. You are permitted to shoot the dog under § 955.28. The dog is not the issue. This is about the woman on the other end of the leash. What law permits you to shoot towards her? Or heaven forbid actually hit her?
Nope. I'd give up every part of my body to keep it away from my child, including both hands. I would not fend off the dog with one hand while the other is on a gun underneath a coat.
Show me where a single pit bull has killed 2 able bodied adults and a "child." Did OP even mention how old his son is? For all we know his son is a 30 yr-old football star. Also you need to define attack. The vast majority of (pet) dog attacks against humans involve a lot of barking and growling and a single bite. Then the dog lets go and continues barking. It's the dog showing that he is serious and is not an intent to kill the victim.
Now I know this is arm-chair quarterbacking. Like I said, I was approached by a friendly pit bull off a leash, and I was scared stiff. Those jaws are huge. I would have been scared, no lie, so I don't know what I actually would have done. But based on what I know, I hope I would reacted as I stated.
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sheepdog
Member
...what good will come out of this discussion??? Hopefully, we'll think and plan and decide a wise course of action and not be caught flat-footed...we'll realize that the documentation of dog incidents is important to later events...especially in court, civil or criminal...and we'll learn more about dogs, their habits, FACTS about dog attacks and what to do to reduce the chance of them happening...I learned four things from this one article:
http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs.htm
http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs.htm
Deanimator
Member
And who's going to stand between the dog and the child after the dog incapacitates YOU?
Who supports the child if you're permanently disabled? The indigent moron who let the dog tear you up?
Apparently the only entities in this scenario with no interests worthy of protection are the victims.
NavyLCDR
member
Show me in the Ohio code where it says I can defend myself against a potentially lethal attack ONLY WHEN IT IS SAFE FOR ALL OTHER BYSTANDERS. Where is that limitation in the statute?!?
The owner of the dog is a negligent party in this case. She did not control her animal. If she was harmed in the act of the victim defending themselves, the courts must find that she was partially at fault for her own injuries because she did not control her animal and it escaped from her property and attacked (if it had gone that far) other persons on their own property.
Heck, for that matter, she could be found to be trespassing on the victim's property because under the circumstances of having a barking/growling/aggressive large dog, there is no reasonable way to assume that the property owner would give his permission for her and the animal to be on his property in the presence of his child!
So we have a negligent animal owner who is trespassing on another's property with an aggressive animal that has the potential to kill a parent and/or child and we are going to fault the property owner for taking actions to defend himself/his child! Give me a break!
Like I said earlier, go back to the BRADY BUNCH - you will surely get a warm, inviting welcome there and a group hug for standing up for this poor woman and her poor dog that some gun toting maniac has taken pot shots at.
The owner of the dog is a negligent party in this case. She did not control her animal. If she was harmed in the act of the victim defending themselves, the courts must find that she was partially at fault for her own injuries because she did not control her animal and it escaped from her property and attacked (if it had gone that far) other persons on their own property.
Heck, for that matter, she could be found to be trespassing on the victim's property because under the circumstances of having a barking/growling/aggressive large dog, there is no reasonable way to assume that the property owner would give his permission for her and the animal to be on his property in the presence of his child!
So we have a negligent animal owner who is trespassing on another's property with an aggressive animal that has the potential to kill a parent and/or child and we are going to fault the property owner for taking actions to defend himself/his child! Give me a break!
Like I said earlier, go back to the BRADY BUNCH - you will surely get a warm, inviting welcome there and a group hug for standing up for this poor woman and her poor dog that some gun toting maniac has taken pot shots at.
Art Eatman
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Ten and a half years of moderating, and I don't believe I've ever seen a dog thread that stayed reasonable, on topic and without a bunch of keyboard kommando commentary and just plain old hostility.
Five pages is way more than enough...
Five pages is way more than enough...
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