Aluminum Frames & durability

[KJS]

Isn't an aluminum frame going to wear out sooner than a steel frame? Seems the same question would apply to polymer frames as well.

Looking through an Ed Brown catalog, I saw their recommendation that those who want to blast away all day at the range with a 1911 would be best served by going with the more durable steel frames they offer. While those who require a lighter 1911 for carry should consider their aluminum frame models since it will be carried a lot more than it will be shot. Basically, Brown said their aluminum frames are quite durable, but they simply can't match the durability of steel.

Being a novice, I have no personal experience to go on here. It seems logical that a steel slide sliding along an aluminum frame is going to wear out that softer frame faster than if it were against a steel frame. (Of course, a steel frame would seem to cause more wear to the slide than a softer frame material.)

Yet aluminum frames are quite popular, such as a Beretta 92 as just one of many common examples. Glocks also are wildly popular and I don't see complaints about their durability, even though polymer pistols have steel running along plastic (really fancy high-tech plastic).

I can certainly understand why aluminum & polymer frames exist: weight. A Beretta 92 is already attacked by critics as too heavy, so one can just imagine how that complaint would increase if it had a steel frame (though I like the weight of steel). And I can see why most cops are packing a Glock instead of working 40 hours a week with a block of 100% pure steel strapped to their side.

I'd love to hear any input on the issue of aluminum and/or polymer frame durability. I'm sure some of the folks here have been shooting long enough and at high volumes to have first hand experience with how long it takes to wear out different types of guns.

Assuming one wants a recreational gun for fun on the range should they automatically go with guns that are all steel for maximum durability? This is also assuming that one is like me and happens to very much appreciate how heavy steel guns soak up recoil.

Thanks for any input.

 

[jmr40]

Steel and plastic frames have proven to last much longer than the aluminum framed pistols. There is a reason most new pistol designs are going to plastic, and the classic steel framed guns are still going strong. If you notice most manufacturers are phasing out their alumium framed DA/SA pistols.

The Beretta and Sig will still be produced as long as the militarty contracts for them are in place, but you see fewer and fewer of them used by police and civilians.

That said, the average person would have a hard time paying for enough ammo to wear out a quality aluminum framed pistol.

 

[rellascout]

99% of avg everyday gun owners will never shoot enough rounds to cause a frame failure on a good alum frame like a Sig or 92FS.

We are taking about 25,000 to 30,000 rounds before you have to worry about frame integrity. That makes it a none issue IMHO. Properly lube your gun and shoot it no matter what it is made of.

 

[PoserHoser]

go with what feels best also if you have enough money to shoot 30,000 rounds youll be able to afford another pistol.
Get a 1911 kimber cdp II custom .45acp best alrounder on the market

 

[Dogguy]

IIRC, the issue of aluminum frames wearing out was raised a few decades ago with the Colt Commander aluminum framed .45 and S&W Airweight .38 Specials. That was a real long time ago. Since then, SIG and Beretta and CZ and a few others have introduced aluminum framed guns that pretty much match the durability of steel. S&W Airweight .38 Specials are now compatible with +P ammo and the exotic metal blends come in .357 Magnum. You don't hear about cracked or stretched or battered aluminum frames much these days.

With improvements in metallurgy, I don't think there's a real issue with aluminum framed firearms anymore.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Steel and plastic frames have proven to last much longer than the aluminum framed pistols. There is a reason most new pistol designs are going to plastic, and the classic steel framed guns are still going strong. If you notice most manufacturers are phasing out their alumium framed DA/SA pistols.

Nailed it.

Sig and Ruger aluminum frames seem to maybe last longer than other brands, but there's not a lot of hard data on either one.

Glocks in 9mm are documented going 100k plus.

Forged steel 1911 frames go 150k plus. You will replace $100s in small parts getting to that number however.

go with what feels best also if you have enough money to shoot 30,000 rounds youll be able to afford another pistol.

For some people 30k rounds is one season of competition and practice. They may have serious money into the sights, barrel etc. and not want to be replacing a cracked frame annually. With the better steel and polymer guns they won't have to.

Get a 1911 kimber cdp II custom .45acp best alrounder on the market

Is this intended as a meaningless fanboy statement? If not, please back up your assertion. What makes it the "best alrounder on the market"? Compare to other brands of 1911, to Glock, CZ-75, Sig P220, P226, etc.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It really is academic when you figure in the cost in ammo it would take to wear out even an alloy frame.

I'll add that the alloyed aluminum used by Sig is much more durable than that used by Colt...or most 1911 copies.

Polymer frames are the most durable as they have less contact with the steel slide, less wear during slide travel, and their ability to recover from flex is superior to steel...all frames flex to some degree.

If frame durability is you primary concern, you should get a polymer framed gun

 

[KJS]

Get a 1911 kimber cdp II custom .45acp best alrounder on the market

Within the last two weeks I finally fired a 1911 for the first time ever, running 200 rounds through a rental. It was a Springfield 1911. I don't recall the specific model designation, but it was very much a typical 1911.

I loved the heft of the steel frame. I loved the short, crisp trigger pull. And I love exposed hammers. Seems I like all the things that make a 1911 like firing a cocked revolver.

This was also the only time I fired .45 ACP as well. I simply had to see what all the fuss was about now that it's the 100th birthday of this most iconic handgun of all time.

I don't see myself buying a 1911, at least not in .45 Auto. If I ever buy a 1911 I'd want it chambered in 9mm for far lower recoil and far lower ammo cost. Interestingly, the 60-something guy behind the counter who rented it to me said he owned the same model himself, though in 9mm because with some injury he didn't need a gun to beat him up. Though most 1911s barely top the capacity of a revolver, using single-stack magazines which doesn't strike me as making sense in 9mm. I don't buy guns with the purpose of home defense, but that is a secondary purpose, and in the unlikely event I meet a bad guy at 3AM I'd rather not have a 18 rounds in a Glock pointed at me while I have half as many 9mm rounds single-stacked in a 1911.

Ammo capacity is also an issue on a range. Inserting a 7-round mag into that 1911 was just one round more than my GP100 (and equal to those who fire a S&W 686 Plus). If I'm going to shoot a semi-auto I'd rather have more capacity than a revolver. After all, more ammo capacity is one of the major arguments in favor of autos.

 

[KJS]

If frame durability is you primary concern, you should get a polymer framed gun

The question was mostly theoretical in nature, as I doubt anybody other than competition shooters has much issue with guns wearing out.

A Glock 22 is the only polymer gun I've ever tried. Appeared very well made, though I ended up demonstrating with it how to fire .40 S&W embarrassingly badly. Well, at least I only missed my target putting most of 150 rounds over or into the right shoulder of a silhouette. That's far better than that DEA agent on YouTube who, after declaring "I'm the only one in this room qualified to handle this gun," shoots himself in the foot in front of a class of school kids with his Glock 22. I manged to not put any holes in my body at least.

I don't think any polymer guns are in my future. I simply like the recoil-taming weight of steel. Right after total embarrassment with a that Glock I rented a S&W 629 and had no problem hitting my target (as well as can be expected from a novice) with .44 Mags launched from a foot-long 3-pound hand cannon. Steel guns seem to like me.

 

[Dave T]

And now for a dose of reality.

Colt uses 7075 aircraft aluminum alloy. The same alloy used in Kimber and several others. Colt frames are forged. I'm not sure about the others and that may or may not make a difference.

Those facts not withstanding, I have cracked 3 (yes I said three) Colt Commander frames and it didn't take a hundred thousand rounds as someone said earlier. The first one cracked at about 2500 rounds. The second at about 5000 rounds and the third after extensive shooting but no more than 6-7000 rounds. All the above was with handloads duplicating Ball ammunition, not +P or anything that would have contributed to premature failure.

I have a good friend who cracked the alloy frame of an early ParaOrd light weight in about 7000 rounds. From the research I've done it seems that 7000 rounds is a pretty realistic number for the life of an alloy frame, at least in a 1911 pattern handgun.

Dave

 

[Zerodefect]

High End 1911 companies like Ed Brown, LesBaer, Dan Wesson, Wilson, etc. are a hundred times more likely to sell a gun to someone that shoots a thousand rounds a month than regular companies like Kimber, springfield etc.

Someone that shoots a thousand rounds per month isn't going to flinch at the cost of a $2500+ 1911.

So they also see many of their customers wear out Al frames, so they make the recommendation that Al frames are for CCW and not heavy shooting.

Meanwhile Kimber claims that while thier Al frames won't last as long as steel, they'll last plenty long. Kimber knows that 99.99% of thier customers won't ever get past 11,000 rounds on thier 1911. Thus their attitude is a bit different.

Al is for CCW. If your shooting IDPA, training, and reloading ammo alot then your better off with an all steel gun, or a modern polymer gun.

Ironicly, a Glock is Steel riding on steel.

 

[fastbolt]

I trend to agree that it's probably a moot point when considered against the amount of range time the "average" owner is probably going to be spending with their guns. (Competitors and long term LE usage can be different considerations.)

Without mentioning name brands (to avoid ruffling feathers), I can offer some comments and observations from a report produced by one of our fed agencies which involved testing various LE service-type pistols available back at the end of the 80's.

Guns made by some of the big name makers of aluminum alloy pistols were used, and the results were compared against a steel-framed gun in specialized use by the agency involved (not a 1911, BTW). The guns tested were chambered in 9mm & .45 ACP.

Let's just say that at least a couple of the big name guns exhibited frame cracking around the 10,000 round point. The president of one of the companies was reported as suggesting that if an agency desired to buy alloy framed guns which would last longer than military specifications (which was 5,000 rounds back then), then they should specify that and their engineers would make changes in the alloy frames to meet that requirement.

The steel gun against which the alloy guns were being compared had established a record with the agency of having the frames and slides remain within operational specification and conditions for in excess of 80,000 rounds, BTW.

Fast forward a few years and the alloy guns made by the unnamed companies were producing better results when subjected to long term testing & usage. Not surprising. Ask for a better product, and make the incentive receiving increased orders & business, and you can generally get a better product.

When I attended a Colt pistol armorer class the instructor asked the students (including a fair number of older, long time owners & users of Model O pistols - ala 1911's) how many had ever experienced a cracked alloy frame. No hands went up. The instructor acknowledge that he'd never owned one which had cracked himself, but that the new production lightweight XSE Commander he used had only seen a little over 5,000 rounds by this point.

I had a 6906 frame which saw what I estimated to be upwards of 45,000+ rounds, in my hands, and the gun had been issued and used by at least one other person before I got it. Yes, I had to replace some parts over time when doing that much shooting, but the alloy frame withstood the usage. I'm certainly not stating or implying that all alloy 6906's (or other older 3rd gen guns with alloy frames) would duplicate that feat. I kept the gun properly lubricated and periodically replaced the recoil spring to help mitigate the battering effects of recoil on the gun, too. One time when I was speaking to a tech at the company and mentioned how much I'd been shooting that particular 6906, he just chuckled and said that back at the time that gun had been made they'd never expected folks would shoot them that much ... but that it I ever managed to wear out the frame that they'd replace the gun (since the lifetime warranty for LE guns was something they were offering before it was later introduced to commercial/private owners).

I own a number of aluminum alloy pistols. I don't worry about experiencing problems with the guns ... and I tend to shoot a fair amount, even if it's spread out among a lot of different guns.

On the other hand, I also expect that my steel-framed guns would probably outlast most of the aluminum alloy guns if all of them were pushed to the extremes of their expected service lives.

I haven't formed an opinion regarding the plastic framed guns in this regard, although I expect them to provide reasonably long and durable service lives if properly cared for and maintained (meaning inspections, periodic spring replacement, etc).

Of my 7 personally-owned plastic framed pistols, only 3 of them have reached the 10-11,000 rounds fired point (and some parts have been replaced in them as needed or considered prudent for maintenance, of course). I expect them to continue to provide good service (with acceptable parts replacement & maintenance) for quite a while longer.

I have a friend with 3 SW99's, in 9mm & .40, through which he's fired in excess of 55,000+ rounds through 2 of them and just several thousands through the other one (and he's probably exceeded that by quite a bit since he shoots a LOT and hasn't brought me any of them for periodic inspections for about a year). I've asked him to start keeping better round counts and gave him some sets of recoil spring assemblies to use in between trips for me to inspect the guns.

However, even if most of the better known alloy framed guns have benefited from ongoing improvements in design and metallurgy over the years since the 80's, does it really matter for most "average" owners who may never shoot more than 50-500 rounds through them, and not 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or more thousands of rounds?

For the owner who wants to see his/her pistol frame not experience the sort of wear that can be experienced with aluminum alloy frames over time (especially if neglected, ill-maintained or abused), then maybe a steel framed model might be a more appealing choice.

Also, purchasers of "high end", costly guns might be folks who are planning to shoot them all the time, a LOT ... or they might be folks who plan to make them "safe queens", or much prized carry weapons which are shot only occasionally. Who knows?

Dunno. Not something I stay awake worrying about at night.

 

[Ala Dan]

I have not worn out an aluminum frame West German SIG-SAUER .45 ACP
P220A, or a West German SIG-SAUER 9mm P228~!

If case in point aluminum frames wear faster; then what a'bout frames made
from scandium~?

 

[Z-Michigan]

"Scandium alloy" is aluminum alloy with a small amount of Scandium as one of the alloying elements. It is stronger than most other aluminum alloys not containing Scandium. It would compare to 7075 or the newer 7175 aluminum alloys, but depending on the particular Scandium-Al alloy you're considering, it should be somewhat stronger than either one.

S&W tries to make you think their frames are made purely of Scandium, as a marketing exercise. The actual Scandium content is less than 0.5%. Total annual production of metallic Scandium is in the range of 10kg, i.e. 22 pounds. Not that much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandium

 

[NG VI]

I don't think any polymer guns are in my future. I simply like the recoil-taming weight of steel. Right after total embarrassment with a that Glock

You should try out a USP .40 sometime, still a poly framed .40, but it's a whole different animal than the Glock 23 and 27 (the two I've got experience with). Way less recoil, recoils about like a CZ PCR with ordinary standard pressure or +P 9mm. I love the Glock 27, but it took me a little while to get used to it. Once I warmed up to it, I shot it best.

 

[fastbolt]

The scandium aluminum alloy frames S&W uses withstand stress from shock better than their regular aluminum alloys, hence their use in 5-shot Magnum Airlites and some of the larger caliber models, as well.

They've obviously been experiencing good results or they wouldn't have used the scandium aluminum alloy in the 4040PD (which seemed to have priced itself out of a viable market due to the increased cost of the scandium aluminum frame), or have increasingly used it in the SW1911 line.

As a matter of fact, I'm seriously considering picking up one of the new Enhanced SW1911's in Commander size with the Scandium aluminum bobtail frame.

 

[Grey Morel]

A large percentage of the public has a VERY poor understanding of what 'plastic' can do.

We are not talking about cracker-jack toys, or the plastic used in off-brand G.I.Joes.

I work as a lab tech in a plastic factory - my JOB is to perform a wide array of tests on a wide array of plastic compounds.

Plastic can range widely. Some plastics are as soft as the "rubber" that makes up muck boots, which melts at very low temperatures and can stretch as much as 500% before damage. Then there are plenum compounds which which are SO hard, and SO heat resistant, that you couldn't bend a 1/4" plate to save your life, or melt it with 400* heat.

Plastic can even be made magnetic, by mixing in chemicals like strontium ferrite.

Durability? Your Doc Martin and Timberland boot soles are PLASTIC - and of only a moderate density; nothing like the stuff that makes up say, wire insulation. The polymers which are used in weapons are MANY times more durable yet than that.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You should try out a USP .40 sometime, still a poly framed .40, but it's a whole different animal than the Glock 23 and 27 (the two I've got experience with). Way less recoil, recoils about like a CZ PCR with ordinary standard pressure or +P 9mm.

That is a function of the design of the H&K

I love the Glock 27, but it took me a little while to get used to it. Once I warmed up to it, I shot it best.

That is a function of the grip angle's fit to your hand and your ability to manage the different trigger systems

 

[NG VI]

Quote:
I love the Glock 27, but it took me a little while to get used to it. Once I warmed up to it, I shot it best.
9mmepiphany
That is a function of the grip angle's fit to your hand and your ability to manage the different trigger systems

Yeah I really work well with the Glock trigger setup, getting used to it was because I had previously never fired a .40 other than my USP, really hadn't shot all that much other than the USP, a 9VE, a 97B, and a pair of Smith .357s. Twenty ounce .40 was a bit of a wake-up call for me, but after maybe four or five boxes through it I got a handle on the process and it went smoothly from then on.

 

[orionengnr]

I once owned an S&W 469 that had many, many rounds through it when I bought it, and I put many, many more through it. In some ways, I miss it.

I was not smart enough to keep records at that time. Nor (in fact) do I keep records today...but these days I hand load, so I have a good idea how many rounds I go through each year.

In all honesty, I don't put a lot of rounds through my alloy framed 1911s--the steel ones get taken to the range (each week if possible) and to the steel plate matches during the summer.

The alloy ones get carried a lot and shot a bit.

If I could only afford one, I guess it would be a steel 1911, but (fortunately) that is not the case.

I do plan on adding a scandium 1911 to the collection one day soon. I have bought, carried and sold (at least) a half dozen scandium revolvers in the last 6-7 years. All were well made and worked great. The scandium cylinder is apparently much harder than the alloy of the frame--the cylinder stop (on the frame whick keeps the cylinder from moving backward with the cylinder open) on one was well worn on a fairly new gun.

 

[fastbolt]

I have bought, carried and sold (at least) a half dozen scandium revolvers in the last 6-7 years. All were well made and worked great. The scandium cylinder is apparently much harder than the alloy of the frame--the cylinder stop (on the frame whick keeps the cylinder from moving backward with the cylinder open) on one was well worn on a fairly new gun.

The cylinders on the Ti/Sc Airlite revolvers are titanium. Those on some Airweights are either carbon or stainless steel. The M&P 340/360 use stainless cylinders with a PVD coating.

The black finish on the cylinder stops can exhibit cosmetic "wear patterns" easily enough, but seem to run just fine.

 

[SoulLessGinger]

Go shake a police trade in Sig and you'll have your answer. They still shoot sweet, but the frames wear a good deal faster than the slides.

 

[S&Wfan]

The gun is a tool . . . and an aluminum framed gun is a specific tool for concealment purposes.

Aluminum will do a GREAT job when used for the purpose it was designed to do!

 

[makarovnik]

I'll go for the steel frame every time.