nalioth
Member
The trigger did not break.Texas Moon said:
During the fooforaw, the trigger guard got bent, and blocked the trigger's return.
Amazing use of a 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt
- Thread starter gclefton
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During the fooforaw, the trigger guard got bent, and blocked the trigger's return.
These are the two most important points made by the GO:
What do you think - is the gun you carry for self defense reliable and accurate?
Do you practice regularly with THAT gun, and you reliable and accurate with THAT gun?
There's no way of knowing if the GO was proficient with his gun, but it certainly appears he knew his gun and could handle it. But as for the gun itself - hindsight says to me that it was not adequate. I would not carry a gun that could have the trigger out of action by a bent trigger guard. Again, not something you would necessarily know in advance, but now that I've heard about it, it's worth considering. How would my carry gun fare under those circumstances? How would yours?
Neither has been discussed by the forum members yet.
What do you think - is the gun you carry for self defense reliable and accurate?
Do you practice regularly with THAT gun, and you reliable and accurate with THAT gun?
There's no way of knowing if the GO was proficient with his gun, but it certainly appears he knew his gun and could handle it. But as for the gun itself - hindsight says to me that it was not adequate. I would not carry a gun that could have the trigger out of action by a bent trigger guard. Again, not something you would necessarily know in advance, but now that I've heard about it, it's worth considering. How would my carry gun fare under those circumstances? How would yours?
nalioth
Member
He obviously wan't that comfortable with his revolver, otherwise he could have continued via "fanning".mykeal said:
. . . not that it wasn't effective as a blunt instrument.
Savvy Jack
Member
I use an Uberti 1873 Cattleman chambered in 45 Colt as my SD revolver. I carry it in a standard western holster/ammo belt. In Georgia we can open carry with a licence. I also carry a BUG 38spl two shot derringer. Not the best choices but its what I love and am efficient with. I also practice weekly when I can but always a few times a month even if its only a few shots to include drawing the revolver from the holster. Situational awareness is crucial. If your SA sucks then may not get the chance to use your speed and accuracy!
To make a long story short I reload my own ammo. They always say never use reloads for SD but here is why I do!
I use black powder, Goex FFF to be exact and 230gr lead round nose original design bullets from "back in the day". I load, compress xxgr of the powder, to replicate original loads. With my loads in my 5.5" barrel I get 1,104fps @ 675ft/lbs of energy and groupings of 2.5" at 50ft. My best was 1" groupings so its me not the gun on the bad groups. I can not get this performance from smokeless powder without exceeding max pressures for the revolver and lower granulations gets worse groupings. Store bought 45 Colt, say Winchester's 225 GR. SUPREME ELITE™ BONDED PDX1 gets 850fps and 360ft/lbs of energy. Winchester's 255 GR. SUPER-X® LEAD ROUND NOSE gets 860fps @ 418ft/lbs of energy. Winchester's Cowboy loads, gets 312ft/lbs of energy. Again, my loadings replicate original "back in the day" loads of about 1,000 fps from a 7.5" barrel revolver.
Black powder is much louder than smokeless powder and will deafen them. Also the percussion at 15ft will part their hair.
The good news is that if I can not hit my target, I can put out one hellofa smoke screen and run for the door....if I can find it!
My wife carries a Springfiled XDm 40S&W ;-)
BTW I also have a recipe for my 44-40 self defense loads. Here is a video for this one. 964 fps @ 412 ft/lbs of energy using black powder substitute powder and 44 magnum bullets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGCVOUb-57I
To make a long story short I reload my own ammo. They always say never use reloads for SD but here is why I do!
I use black powder, Goex FFF to be exact and 230gr lead round nose original design bullets from "back in the day". I load, compress xxgr of the powder, to replicate original loads. With my loads in my 5.5" barrel I get 1,104fps @ 675ft/lbs of energy and groupings of 2.5" at 50ft. My best was 1" groupings so its me not the gun on the bad groups. I can not get this performance from smokeless powder without exceeding max pressures for the revolver and lower granulations gets worse groupings. Store bought 45 Colt, say Winchester's 225 GR. SUPREME ELITE™ BONDED PDX1 gets 850fps and 360ft/lbs of energy. Winchester's 255 GR. SUPER-X® LEAD ROUND NOSE gets 860fps @ 418ft/lbs of energy. Winchester's Cowboy loads, gets 312ft/lbs of energy. Again, my loadings replicate original "back in the day" loads of about 1,000 fps from a 7.5" barrel revolver.
Black powder is much louder than smokeless powder and will deafen them. Also the percussion at 15ft will part their hair.
The good news is that if I can not hit my target, I can put out one hellofa smoke screen and run for the door....if I can find it!
My wife carries a Springfiled XDm 40S&W ;-)
BTW I also have a recipe for my 44-40 self defense loads. Here is a video for this one. 964 fps @ 412 ft/lbs of energy using black powder substitute powder and 44 magnum bullets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGCVOUb-57I
oneiron
Member
I have the same revolver, except it has a 51/2" barrel. The gun out of the box is very accurate. Without and after market main spring, I would not try fanning. It took the flesh off my heel pad.
Good Guy, tactically, would have been better off simply shooting the BG with no negotiation, given the BG had just shot the Store Manager/Owner even though no resistence had been offered by the victim.
Morally, this is an issue we all need to think about, since it is probably contrary to many of our natures to do.
Certainly having enough familiarity and proficiency with an Arm one is carrying, is a good idea.
"Enough" being a sort of magic or elusive quantity...but, 'enough' means, you do not get lost about function, and, can pretty well manage it without thinking anyway.
And if carrying a 19th Century Arm, or a reproduction of one, one may as well have it loaded with the spunkiest Ammunition it can handle safely...and, not be carrying it with 'Cowbow' Loads.
Two Handed, with a SA, one can definitely get successive rounds off fast by cocking with the second Hand's thumb, while retaining a firm grip with the dominant Hand.
Fanning can break a Hand or other part of the Mechanism on SA Revolvers not made or modified for it...might get away with it, might not.
P.S.
I can not imagine how one would bend in a Trigger Bow, let alone, enough to prevent the Trigger form having travel.
Anyone have any ideas on that?
Morally, this is an issue we all need to think about, since it is probably contrary to many of our natures to do.
Certainly having enough familiarity and proficiency with an Arm one is carrying, is a good idea.
"Enough" being a sort of magic or elusive quantity...but, 'enough' means, you do not get lost about function, and, can pretty well manage it without thinking anyway.
And if carrying a 19th Century Arm, or a reproduction of one, one may as well have it loaded with the spunkiest Ammunition it can handle safely...and, not be carrying it with 'Cowbow' Loads.
Two Handed, with a SA, one can definitely get successive rounds off fast by cocking with the second Hand's thumb, while retaining a firm grip with the dominant Hand.
Fanning can break a Hand or other part of the Mechanism on SA Revolvers not made or modified for it...might get away with it, might not.
P.S.
I can not imagine how one would bend in a Trigger Bow, let alone, enough to prevent the Trigger form having travel.
Anyone have any ideas on that?
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BHP FAN
Member
I have two of the Remington '75's in .45 Colt, and two Remmie '90's in .357. I'd use any of them, if the need arose.
This story does involve several worthy sidelights for discussion and rumination.
- How to manage a condition forthrightly, where a BG shooter is already shooting people.
- Familiarity with one's Carry Arm, and modes of use.
- The advisibility of electing Ammunition which has as much power as the Arm reasonably allows.
- Black Powder as a viable propellent, along with Hand Loads, for Arms suited to it, for SD situations...whether Cap & Ball or Metallic C'tg.
- Rapid Follow-Up shots as something one would do well to bear in mind for being able and willing to do, rather than to shoot 'once' and then pause, look, and evaluate what the BG hapens to think of it, and or where it hit, or how come it did not seem to 'do' anything, etc.
- Making sure the Arm one does Carry, even if just for fun or in an occasional way, is in fact mechanically up to the task, if it is called on in earnest.
All common sense things...and better incorporated into one's mental and habituated thoughts before hand, than to be trying to remember or invent or manage as if for the first time, on some spurr of a moment occasion of heavy earnest.
- How to manage a condition forthrightly, where a BG shooter is already shooting people.
- Familiarity with one's Carry Arm, and modes of use.
- The advisibility of electing Ammunition which has as much power as the Arm reasonably allows.
- Black Powder as a viable propellent, along with Hand Loads, for Arms suited to it, for SD situations...whether Cap & Ball or Metallic C'tg.
- Rapid Follow-Up shots as something one would do well to bear in mind for being able and willing to do, rather than to shoot 'once' and then pause, look, and evaluate what the BG hapens to think of it, and or where it hit, or how come it did not seem to 'do' anything, etc.
- Making sure the Arm one does Carry, even if just for fun or in an occasional way, is in fact mechanically up to the task, if it is called on in earnest.
All common sense things...and better incorporated into one's mental and habituated thoughts before hand, than to be trying to remember or invent or manage as if for the first time, on some spurr of a moment occasion of heavy earnest.
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KodiakBeer
member
I find it hard to imagine how he broke/bent the trigger guard, though he obviously managed it somehow.
It doesn't surprise me that the BG kept going for a while after taking the hits. It takes time to bleed out. Look at the store owner, he was up and moving around after the shooting with two slugs in him also. People expect too much from a handgun round.
It doesn't surprise me that the BG kept going for a while after taking the hits. It takes time to bleed out. Look at the store owner, he was up and moving around after the shooting with two slugs in him also. People expect too much from a handgun round.
Shot placement - we have no information from the narrative, but the results speak for themselves: inadequate. Discussing the load and whether or not it's sufficient means little without that little item of where the bullet strikes. This goes back to training and proficiency.
Savvy Jack
Member
Fanning can be done but the revolvers need work done on them for it to be effective. Hammer work, spring work, etc. Fanning can disrupt the "timing" of the cylinder and not fire as can be seen in the video.
Using two hands on a Single Action Army can result in rapid and accurate fire.
Here is a video I made to demonstrate why one should not fan the hammer on an out of the box SAA UNLESS its a Ruger. The video also shows two handed shooting at the end of the video, along with the cross draw method. Fanning also can result in not hitting the back side of a barn with FULL BLACK POWDER LOADS due to the huge recoil. The gun wants to jump out of your hand with these loads! In the video I am using the 44-40 not the 45 Colt but the results are very close. When I use the cross draw I remove the revolver, cock and shoot with one hand. I remove the revolver from the holster while holding the holster with the left hand keeping the holster from moving. After I fire my first shot my left hand/thumb is now positioned and I use my left thumb to cock the revolver for the final shots. Aiming at my target with both right strong side and cross draw methods. There is no aiming when fanning cept using your brain to tell your hand where to point. It can be done but I am not there yet! In the video I am not shooting from the hip like the "Quick Draw guys do. Those guys are fast and accurate but they use wax bullets which result in little to no recoil which can affect accuracy after the first shot.
I am not a gunfighter nor am I fast by any means. Any time I compete, I am usually last!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8TnFP4nyXw
Using two hands on a Single Action Army can result in rapid and accurate fire.
Here is a video I made to demonstrate why one should not fan the hammer on an out of the box SAA UNLESS its a Ruger. The video also shows two handed shooting at the end of the video, along with the cross draw method. Fanning also can result in not hitting the back side of a barn with FULL BLACK POWDER LOADS due to the huge recoil. The gun wants to jump out of your hand with these loads! In the video I am using the 44-40 not the 45 Colt but the results are very close. When I use the cross draw I remove the revolver, cock and shoot with one hand. I remove the revolver from the holster while holding the holster with the left hand keeping the holster from moving. After I fire my first shot my left hand/thumb is now positioned and I use my left thumb to cock the revolver for the final shots. Aiming at my target with both right strong side and cross draw methods. There is no aiming when fanning cept using your brain to tell your hand where to point. It can be done but I am not there yet! In the video I am not shooting from the hip like the "Quick Draw guys do. Those guys are fast and accurate but they use wax bullets which result in little to no recoil which can affect accuracy after the first shot.
I am not a gunfighter nor am I fast by any means. Any time I compete, I am usually last!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8TnFP4nyXw
bigbadgun
Member
just ran across this thread and to answer mykeals question in a round about way.
I work in retail in a not so bad not so great nieghborhood but still at times have large amounts of cash in the store. I have always carried and am going to do so until I cant anymore. here are my requirments for this store and then I will let you all know what I carry. From the front door of the store to the cash registar is exactly 22 feet. very large parking lot between me and the lot are 2 very large plate glass windows. Alot of elderly and younger couples with kids thru the plaza all day.
Ok so that is the setting. The pistol I carry is a 1945 S&W .32 Long snubby. am I wrong in thinking that it has enough stopping power. If need be I want to take out the BG but dont want to hurt any innocents. I have extensive use with this firearm have practiced with it for a long time. Is a good shooter. But after reading the article about the GO and a .45LC hitting the BG 3 times makes me double think my choise in weapons.
I work in retail in a not so bad not so great nieghborhood but still at times have large amounts of cash in the store. I have always carried and am going to do so until I cant anymore. here are my requirments for this store and then I will let you all know what I carry. From the front door of the store to the cash registar is exactly 22 feet. very large parking lot between me and the lot are 2 very large plate glass windows. Alot of elderly and younger couples with kids thru the plaza all day.
Ok so that is the setting. The pistol I carry is a 1945 S&W .32 Long snubby. am I wrong in thinking that it has enough stopping power. If need be I want to take out the BG but dont want to hurt any innocents. I have extensive use with this firearm have practiced with it for a long time. Is a good shooter. But after reading the article about the GO and a .45LC hitting the BG 3 times makes me double think my choise in weapons.
nalioth
Member
It's not the size of the bullet, it's where you put them.bigbadgun said:
KodiakBeer
member
Yes, and no... I don't think the issue here was bullet placement, it was simply not enough bullets placed. If he'd had opportunity to put his entire cylinder into the BG's chest, the incident may have ended earlier. Of course, that's easier said than done.
I think the bottom line is that one shouldn't rely on any handgun to put an instant stop to an attack.
If the guy with the Remington had been shooting full power .45 Colt Ammunition, with RNL Bullets, anything not striking the Spine directly, would have tended to have gone right on through.
250 Grain Bullet, 900 - 1000 FPS, is not going to lodge shallowly in the recipient.
In the early 1990s I worked part time in a sort of Beatnik revival Coffee House.
It was in a bad neighborhood, and we'd get some ne'r-do-wells stumbling in sometimes trying to press a hustle or sometimes getting a little agitated over wanting handouts or money or hassling customers.
Anyway, good will and firm diplomacy managed...but, I also carried my 1918 Colt New Service, .45 ACP, 2 Inch Barrel, Round Butt 'Snubby'...with Lead Wadcutters.
I was guessing the FPS would be around 600 - 650, and years later, getting a Chronograph, that guess was about right.
An M1911 .45 Auto would be probably about the best choice, and use soft Lead Semiwadcutter Bullets to diminish possibilities of over penetration, or, use some of the new varieties of expanding "SD" type Bullets.
A .32 Snubby is pretty unlikely to make much of an impression in a rhuebarb unless managing to hit something genuinely vital and prompt, like an Eye, or the Brain or Spine...and it may not penetrate well enough with enough energy remaning to impact the Spine well from the front.
250 Grain Bullet, 900 - 1000 FPS, is not going to lodge shallowly in the recipient.
In the early 1990s I worked part time in a sort of Beatnik revival Coffee House.
It was in a bad neighborhood, and we'd get some ne'r-do-wells stumbling in sometimes trying to press a hustle or sometimes getting a little agitated over wanting handouts or money or hassling customers.
Anyway, good will and firm diplomacy managed...but, I also carried my 1918 Colt New Service, .45 ACP, 2 Inch Barrel, Round Butt 'Snubby'...with Lead Wadcutters.
I was guessing the FPS would be around 600 - 650, and years later, getting a Chronograph, that guess was about right.
An M1911 .45 Auto would be probably about the best choice, and use soft Lead Semiwadcutter Bullets to diminish possibilities of over penetration, or, use some of the new varieties of expanding "SD" type Bullets.
A .32 Snubby is pretty unlikely to make much of an impression in a rhuebarb unless managing to hit something genuinely vital and prompt, like an Eye, or the Brain or Spine...and it may not penetrate well enough with enough energy remaning to impact the Spine well from the front.
The less power the round has the more important it is to get the right placement. A .22LR will stop someone if properly placed. A .50 BMG will hardly slow down someone if poorly placed. The size and location of one stop opportunities is larger for the 'big daddy' rounds. Your .32 is enough in an aorta, a carotid or femoral artery, brain stem, etc. You can hit the spine through the throat with a .22LR. Can you shoot it well enough to make those hits? If not, get a bigger gun with a 'personal defense' round.
bigbadgun
Member
Mykeal I have practiced extensivly with the little bugger I am confident in my ability to hit my target. Again my concern and reason for this particular piece is not wanting the colateral damage. But point taken.
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