American law enforcement officers are civilians (visual aid for debates)

[BenW]

Regarding definitions, from my post in a previous (locked!) thread on the same subject http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47716

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Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, Deluxe Edition (1983):

Civilian (n):
1) One who is skilled in civil or Roman law.
2) Any person not in the military or naval service.

Civilian (a):
Relating to or characteristic of civilians; nonmilitary.

For every definition, there is an equal and opposite re-definition.
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I don't think we'll ever see agreement on this subject.

 

[Quartus]

If you're comparison is to the military

It's not a comparison, it's a definition.


"To use words wrongly and indefinitely is not merely an error in itself, it also creates evil in the soul."

Socrates.







Humpty Dumpty was an arrogant idiot.

 

[Treylis]

...that no one seems to get upset with calling it a 45 auto when we all know it's a semi auto. The only people I ever hear correcting someone about that are newbies to the gun scene.

I call my semi-autos automatics. It's just the older usage--when such pistols were first coming into being, folks called 'em automatics. You know, ACP--Automatic Colt Pistol?

 

[Group9]

Here's someone else who needs to be straightened out.


Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

One entry found for civilian.

Main Entry: ci·vil·ian
Pronunciation: s&-'vil-y&n also -'vi-y&n
Function: noun
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a : one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force b : OUTSIDER 1
- civilian adjective

 

[Dex Sinister]

This is the argument in the poster:

All police are civilians,
All police carry guns for protection,
Some civilians who carry [guns] are lawful, trained, and FBI checked,
Therefore some civilians who carry guns deserve equal protection (from something.)

I don't think it's the argument that you're trying to make?

Dex

 

[Oleg Volk]

Police are civilians who carry for self defense. Other civilians should be able to do the same. Maybe I wasn't very clear on this...

 

[tcsd1236]

Police are civilians who carry for self defense. Other civilians should be able to do

Thats an overly simplistic view on why the officers sidearm is carried. It is not only carried for their own protection but the protection of third parties or other more mundane uses performed in the course of their official duties ( which goes beyond self-defense, since most officers can easily go an entire career without firing a shot in anger ), a function that Americans EXPECT their law enforcement officers to perform. Citizens of other countries such as England DON'T expect their average officer to be armed.

With the advent of newer technologies such as the Taser, I have no doubt that SOME day there will even be a push to disarm the American LEO. It probably wont happen while the general public is as widely armed as it currently is, but if that situation were to ever change, I am certain that there would be a big push to disarm the officers.......

 

[thefitzvh]

Maybe then LEOS will see how we feel

 

[WonderNine]

Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, Deluxe Edition (1983):

Civilian (n):
1) One who is skilled in civil or Roman law.
2) Any person not in the military or naval service.

Civilian (a):
Relating to or characteristic of civilians; nonmilitary.

For every definition, there is an equal and opposite re-definition.

Now what will be really interesting is when we can find the first instance of a dictionary including LEO's as non-civilians.

 

[Firethorn]

tcsd1236: While I am NOT a civilian, being active duty military, I carry for the same reasons cops do: Personal protection as well as the protection of others. In this regard, if I have to use my weapon, the rules are pretty much the same for me as it is for non-leo's.

I doubt that many of the people who carry here wouldn't attempt to stop an assault against a third party.

 

[fastbolt]

Well, I'm L/E and I've always considered myself a civilian ... but that's because I'm not in the military.

I've always generally heard of the non-L/E population ... which aren't in the military ... referred to as either the public, or private citizens. The "public" has always seemed to be a general "catch all", as it can also include non-American citizens, and folks which haven't become American citizens, for whatever reason.

Believe it or not, it wasn't until I started browsing all these forums in th last couple of years that I started hearing the term "civilian" frequently used to describe non-L/E ...

Sure, I've heard the term used every once in a while, but it's mostly seemed to be from someone who used to be in the military, or was still in the Reserves, and I thought that they were still a bit caught up in the military mindset.

Working in a governmental organization which uses a rank structure similar to the military ... "para-military", if you will ... AND is charged with exercising police powers ... can reasonably be expected to foster this sort of thing, especially among folks who served in the military ... don't you think?

It's not like it's any grand conspiracy, though ... or that most of them mean anything derogatory. I mean, we're still public servants ...

I was a civilian before I became a cop ... I'm a civilian cop for now ... and I'll be a civilian ex-cop when I retire ...

 

[TallPine]

"Civilian" is a handy but unfortunate term to describe anyone not a part of a trained and uniformed emergency response team such as police, fire fighters, or EMTs (or military, of course).

I have caught myself using the word when I should have said "citizen" or "private citizen" relating to a fire incident. We have to keep a watch out for those not trained and in protective gear, even though some of them may have far more hands-on fire fighting experience than some of us on the VFD. But our training includes "watch-outs" for situations experienced in every wildland fire that has ever been fought.

In reality, both fire fighters and police are both civilians and citizens

What bothers me most is the term "law enforcement" replacing "peace officer" ... LE evokes an image of imposing the 'king's" laws on the peasants as opposed to keeping the peace for the benefit of citizens.

 

[2nd Amendment]

But that's the evolving purpose of police in America today, arbitrarily enforcing the "law" and hoping the courts sort it out...or don't...at some later date. The police do not "keep the peace" unless they happen to be on the scene at just the right(or wrong) moment nor do the "protect the innocent. They solve crimes after the fact and enforce whatever laws they are told to against whomever they are told to.

"Law Enforcement" and the developing LE vs Civilians mentality are merely aspects of this change in governance in general from a Constitutional Republic to a mob-rule Democracy(which invariably becomes a dictatorship of one form or another).

 

[fastbolt]

What bothers me most is the term "law enforcement" replacing "peace officer" ...

Yeah, interesting use of terminology, and the evolution of its meaning ...

In CA, a person who is a "Peace Officer" has specific, articuable authorities and powers ... and there are many flavors of Peace Officers, meaning different job titles which may have Peace Officer powers, either "full" or limited in scope and authority. This is a very broad & rough brush stroke, but hopefully you get what I mean ...

"Law Enforcement", however, is a category of a government function/service which includes various jobs, functions, services & titles ... many of which do NOT empower the specific person with Peace Officer powers.

I used to use the term Peace Officer when I first started posting on various forums. I soon discovered that this placed me in the minority of posters, however, almost all of whom used the term "LEO" or "L/E" ... and who were almost exclusively NOT Peace Officers themselves. Okay, no big deal ... I can go with the flow ... and so I started using the term L/E and Non-L/E. I still don't like "LEO", however, but maybe I simply met someone named Leo that I didn't like sometime. I'll acknowledge that "Law Enforcement Officer" is a bit more defined in scope than "Law Enforcement", though ...

Given my druthers, I'd prefer to continue to use the term Peace Officer, or at least one of the specific job titles defined as a Peace Officer in most states ... such as Police Officer, Deputy Sheriff, Constable, Marshal, Corrections Officer, State "whatever" Officer, Trooper, etc., etc. ... but it seems that most of the "public" is satisfied, and even prefers, to paint us with the same brush as being simply LEO's, L/E, cops, etc.

No big deal ... I use the terms that are the easiest, meaning the most commonly used ... and are presumably the least "offensive" to the rest of the folks on these forums that aren't in Law Enforcement in general ...

Some folks can be downright touchy.

 

[tcsd1236]

In CA, a person who is a "Peace Officer" has specific, articuable authorities and powers ... and there are many flavors of Peace Officers, meaning different job titles which may have Peace Officer powers, either "full" or limited in scope and authority. This is a very broad & rough brush stroke, but hopefully you get what I mean ...

Same in NYS; we have Peace Officers, and we have Police Officers. Peace Officers are a multitude of different occupations whose personnel are required to have some sort of law enforcement ability in the performance of their duties, but lose some or all of those powers when not "on the Job". Police Officers here are what some folks might call "real" law enforcement.