Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Actually, that's not really correct. Turns out they think the murders were OK, but the mutilations were un-Islamic. And at least one of them says the mutilations are OK, too.
Americans Killed in Iraq Mutilated and Desecrated
- Thread starter mountain_cowboy
- Start date
- Status
Actually, that's not really correct. Turns out they think the murders were OK, but the mutilations were un-Islamic. And at least one of them says the mutilations are OK, too.
joab
Member
I should have said the desecrations of the dead.
Some Clerics have condemed the action
But regardless I still say give them the opportunity to turn over the known offenders we can get the rest of the names later.
If they do, let their city stand (under extreme and definite curfews and control) if not let them face the repercussions For the actions of a few and the silence of the majority.
Some Clerics have condemed the action
But regardless I still say give them the opportunity to turn over the known offenders we can get the rest of the names later.
If they do, let their city stand (under extreme and definite curfews and control) if not let them face the repercussions For the actions of a few and the silence of the majority.
I am not for extremes. Either the "just reason with them" extreme or the "nuke'm all" extreme.
By definition an animal is an animal. That is "animal" as defined by their actions.
Who decides when it's necessary? Or how much is necessary?
Aiding and abetting the enemy makes you the enemy with them.
Not weak because we haven't killed enough in general but that we have not killed enough that need killing.
Who decides who needs killing? Common sense should.
Those who are actively participating and those who are aiding them in any fashion.
====
joab, that sounds like the beginning of a reasonable plan. I would not put much stock in the Falluja or any clerics until they start acting on their "convictions" to identify and remove these misguided animals.
By definition an animal is an animal. That is "animal" as defined by their actions.
Who decides when it's necessary? Or how much is necessary?
Aiding and abetting the enemy makes you the enemy with them.
Not weak because we haven't killed enough in general but that we have not killed enough that need killing.
Who decides who needs killing? Common sense should.
Those who are actively participating and those who are aiding them in any fashion.
====
joab, that sounds like the beginning of a reasonable plan. I would not put much stock in the Falluja or any clerics until they start acting on their "convictions" to identify and remove these misguided animals.
Dear Hapafish,
This is the crux of the problem:
Hapafish said:
For the record, I think the American public needs to stop projecting American standards of behavior onto the Iraqis
-It has NOTHING to do with them: it has to do that WE'RE American's. Even if they were roving cannables, who killed anything that wasn't them, ate the dead and raped everthing that was dead or alive, I'd STILL advocate controlled force and not this fear/hate mongering kill 'em all attitude. I must be somewhat right seeing that the administration and generals haven't enacted your solution and haven't found this situation pressing enough to destroy a whole city even though they readily have the means and most of the public support when it comes to the war.
-you say this is about survival, right? That is my whooole point: survival of American ideals as well as the physical USA. Yes, we could make the world very safe for us if we murdered any, and everyone who ever spoke out against us and threaten death to us, or have killed some of our people. Yep, one big wasteland, except for the Land of the Free. But what would that get us. We might be safe but we would not be Americans.
-This ties directly to RKBA. The antis think the very survival of civilized life is at stake as long as there's guns around, and that they should completely destroy every non-uniform gun out there but the RKBA and other very important ideals is what makes us American. If someone doesn't like it: move. If someone wants to partake of endless attempted genocide for the sake of supposed safety, well, there are many countries in Africa looking for yet another trigger puller.
-WE must not let fear and hate control our actions. I'm all for whatever will work to solve the problem but doesn't comprimise our values. As for the folks that say, 'well, this is war-gloves off...' I'm sorry to bust your bubble but war even in antiquity had and have rules of engagement and rules to govern conduct in war. I'm sorry to bring up this horse again but that Vietnam uncle who had LOTS of soldiers under him said that American soldiers over there committed quite a few atrocities in the form of murder of innocent villagers and quite a few rapes of underaged girls.....
-That's right, I must be wrong since they're the animals...
-Lots of times humans act like dam animals, us included, but I'm sorry that doesn't fly as an excuse for either side: it doesn't let them off the hook of their responsibility and humanity and it doesn't let us off the hook of their humanity as well. Surgical Strikes! That's the way. Might take longer but we'll still be AMerican at the end.
-paco
This is the crux of the problem:
Hapafish said:
For the record, I think the American public needs to stop projecting American standards of behavior onto the Iraqis
-It has NOTHING to do with them: it has to do that WE'RE American's. Even if they were roving cannables, who killed anything that wasn't them, ate the dead and raped everthing that was dead or alive, I'd STILL advocate controlled force and not this fear/hate mongering kill 'em all attitude. I must be somewhat right seeing that the administration and generals haven't enacted your solution and haven't found this situation pressing enough to destroy a whole city even though they readily have the means and most of the public support when it comes to the war.
-you say this is about survival, right? That is my whooole point: survival of American ideals as well as the physical USA. Yes, we could make the world very safe for us if we murdered any, and everyone who ever spoke out against us and threaten death to us, or have killed some of our people. Yep, one big wasteland, except for the Land of the Free. But what would that get us. We might be safe but we would not be Americans.
-This ties directly to RKBA. The antis think the very survival of civilized life is at stake as long as there's guns around, and that they should completely destroy every non-uniform gun out there but the RKBA and other very important ideals is what makes us American. If someone doesn't like it: move. If someone wants to partake of endless attempted genocide for the sake of supposed safety, well, there are many countries in Africa looking for yet another trigger puller.
-WE must not let fear and hate control our actions. I'm all for whatever will work to solve the problem but doesn't comprimise our values. As for the folks that say, 'well, this is war-gloves off...' I'm sorry to bust your bubble but war even in antiquity had and have rules of engagement and rules to govern conduct in war. I'm sorry to bring up this horse again but that Vietnam uncle who had LOTS of soldiers under him said that American soldiers over there committed quite a few atrocities in the form of murder of innocent villagers and quite a few rapes of underaged girls.....
-That's right, I must be wrong since they're the animals...
-Lots of times humans act like dam animals, us included, but I'm sorry that doesn't fly as an excuse for either side: it doesn't let them off the hook of their responsibility and humanity and it doesn't let us off the hook of their humanity as well. Surgical Strikes! That's the way. Might take longer but we'll still be AMerican at the end.
-paco
longeyes
member
Paco,
There's one thing you forget: this is an election year.
Let us not confuse being Americans with being politicians. The generals are taking orders from the politicians. And we now how the politicians perform their calculations. Now that sounds familiar to some of us older THRers, doesn't it?
RKBA is a concept inseparable from the concept of free, politically aware, morally responsible citizens. Without the latter you are talking about armed chaos, not RKBA. RKBA is the answer to chaos, as is our Republic.
There's one thing you forget: this is an election year.
Let us not confuse being Americans with being politicians. The generals are taking orders from the politicians. And we now how the politicians perform their calculations. Now that sounds familiar to some of us older THRers, doesn't it?
RKBA is a concept inseparable from the concept of free, politically aware, morally responsible citizens. Without the latter you are talking about armed chaos, not RKBA. RKBA is the answer to chaos, as is our Republic.
El Rojo...
Please tell me that the folks who did this to these Americans really just need a little "time-out". Perhaps if they sing a rousing rendition of "Kum-Ba-Ya" around a less grisly campfire, then things will be better. Some here would even argue that due to their choice of employment, they somehow deserved their fate.
Hapafish paints an accurate picture of what, and who, we're dealing with over there. Those who were clubbing the mortal remains of the Blackwater employees with shovels probably didn't care if the deceased were Liberal, Conservative, Muslim, Catholic, Lutheran, Jewish, or Buddhists. They were Americans, and targeted, then desecrated, as such.
Sean Smith, as much as I'd like to agree with you, this Wisconsin Synod Lutheran cannot. Our organizational skills are pretty much limited to the well-known coffee and cookies fellowship in the church basement every Sunday. Although somebody tried one of those foo-foo chocolate/raspberry flavored coffees in my congregation a while ago, and was almost excommunicated, or worse. That's about as close to racking up a kill count as I've ever seen there.
Please tell me that the folks who did this to these Americans really just need a little "time-out". Perhaps if they sing a rousing rendition of "Kum-Ba-Ya" around a less grisly campfire, then things will be better. Some here would even argue that due to their choice of employment, they somehow deserved their fate.
Hapafish paints an accurate picture of what, and who, we're dealing with over there. Those who were clubbing the mortal remains of the Blackwater employees with shovels probably didn't care if the deceased were Liberal, Conservative, Muslim, Catholic, Lutheran, Jewish, or Buddhists. They were Americans, and targeted, then desecrated, as such.
Sean Smith, as much as I'd like to agree with you, this Wisconsin Synod Lutheran cannot. Our organizational skills are pretty much limited to the well-known coffee and cookies fellowship in the church basement every Sunday. Although somebody tried one of those foo-foo chocolate/raspberry flavored coffees in my congregation a while ago, and was almost excommunicated, or worse. That's about as close to racking up a kill count as I've ever seen there.
Brian Dale
Member
Some cultures are better than others; there's no genetic component.
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The islamofascistjihadist enemy neither recognizes nor practices such rules.
Bubble intact.
I am really sick of this whiny "blame America first" rhetoric. If your uncle was in command of men who committed war crimes, and did not prosecute ALL of them to the FULLEST EXTENT, he is COMPLICIT in those crimes and JUST AS GUILTY.
The Ba'ath Party started the war, not the Iraqi people. Innocent Iraqis suffered under sanctions while Saddam and company continued to live like kings.
Please re-read my post for comprehension. I never alleged genocide.
A lame excuse. I asked you to do nothing of the kind. Bovard's book might set you back $20.00. Or you could visit a library if you wanted, which you clearly do not, so don't trouble your head about it, Taurus.
I will not do your research for you. Besides, you have already posted an excerpt from The Neocon War on Peace and Freedom, Part 2, by James Bovard.
Yo Tammy, I got news for you. We have no national security interests in Rwanda. The function of the US military is - or rather, it should be - to protect the United States, not be the sheriff of Africa. There are bloody terrible wars raging across the African continent even today. I'm sorry.
I feel bad for their familes, but let's be honest here. Those four private security guys knew the risk before they took the assignment that involved visiting the most dangerous, anti-American city in the entire Iraqi theatre. That's why they make the big bucks (up to $1,000.00 PER DAY in some cases).
jimpeel
Member
An article that was linked at the L.A. Times article posted earlier; but everyone seems to have missed.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...l3apr03,0,1757182.story?coll=la-iraq-complete
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...l3apr03,0,1757182.story?coll=la-iraq-complete
You just linked to an article that did to support your position.
Of course you didn't link to an artical alleging genoicide to imply we went there to pick daisies.
No. You want me to research something to disprove an allegation in an article that you linked to that you now say is not what you meant.
Are your posts always this useless or is this a special occasion?
You go around and around but don't say anything.
Edited for clarity...
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Powderman
Member
So, what would you do? We tried the piecemeal, just hunt the enemy and leave everything else standing approach once before, in a place called Viet Nam. If you remember, it didn't work there, either.
We are already engaged in trying to find one guy by the name of Bin Laden. We're having a ripping success there, too.
No, not anyone who stands up to me. Just anyone who actively and violently resists arrest, has a weapon in their possession, or physically tries to attack me or my partner.
Then, the proper response is NOT to reason with them, or try any type of psychology. The proper response is to respond with the minimum force necessary to get the person to stop what they are doing, and to submit to lawful apprehension. If it takes a nasty look, fine. If it takes some physical control, or pain compliance, then that's their choice. If it takes them staring down the barrel of the appropriate firearm for the occasion, so be it.
You see, it's their choice.
What big man display of bravado? Remember, these guys opened the ball. They chose to display behavior that goes beyond any and all laws of land warfare. They are sending up a challenge, just like the Somalians did. I hope for this Nation's sake that we don't cut and run like we did that time.
The only other alternative, you see, is to just drop everything, pull out all the troops, equipment, and any other trace of our presence. Boy, that would really make the sacrifices of our servicemenbers and others meaningful, would it not?
By the way, have you served in the Armed Forces? If so, what branch?
-Paco
Well, I would dearly love to indulge your position on this, but since you weren't there beside me all those times I took fire, went hungry, went thirsty, and walked through the wreckage of Iraq that these people largely visited upon themselves, I find your insistence on kid gloves highly suspect. I never said we should visit unrestrained destruction on these people in Fallujah; that isn't what I have advocated here. The gist of my argument is as follows:
(1) This is a war for national survival, but the American public (and as it appears many in this forum) don't see it as such.
(2) The more we pull our punches, the more we give the terrorists time to gain strength and gain legitimacy amongst their own people.
(3) Both (1) and (2) prolong the conflict, and the suffering on all sides. Real mercy is to end the war by decisive means, before the terrorist contagion spreads. Not doing so means that eventually, we will be visited by great ruin upon this nation. America has made hard, hard choices in the past. As the descendant of mortal enemies, I tell you all this: If the American public shies away from confrontation, every nation on earth will pay the price. The hard choices bring peace and will make friends of enemies. The easy way out will bleed everyone longer. The more we all screw around, the greater the catastrophe waiting for us all.
-Paco
To be blunt, I give "ideals" no credence. If it comes to pass that because of idealists at home strangling us with ROEs and "we should be nice" as the terrorists solidify their base, resulting in the entire Arab world unifying like the Japanese did, heart and soul, determined to kill every American, you bet I'd lase a target for a nuke even if it killed me. For those of you who advocate Hollywood notions of commando raids and pinpoint airstrikes as some sort of realistic solution for all of this, I highly suggest you either take a trip to Iraq as a civilian, or join the military. Having relatives who have done their service does not count. Pull your weight. For those in this forum who have served in the past, thank you. For those in this forum who actively fight to keep the United States free of the contagion of foreign and domestic enemies, as civilians or LEOs, thank you. For those of you who are "internet generals" interested in bitching about the conduct of the war from the sanctuary of your own home, I find your motives suspect and your understanding of this war even more so. I really don't care if my suggestions in this forum are implemented or not, because I do not make those decisions, and I understand that. I speak from my level as a line dog on what I believe would work, should I be one of those implementing the measures. I would much rather live with the knowledge that my family is safe, rather than dead in pursuit of someone else's nebulous ideology.
-Paco
I should have lots and lots of cousins, but I don't. Both sides of my family lost members to the following wars: The Japanese invasion of China, the Second World War, the Chinese Civil War, and the Korean War. The result is that the older generations of my family live with a lot of pain. Both my parents starved after the Second World War. My mother was a war refugee who had nightmares all her life. Rules in war? You mean those set-piece battles of antiquity that don't go into detail over the rape and massacre of camp followers, the pillaging of the countryside, the torture of prisoners? Oh right. I had two uncles fight in Vietnam. Both my parents lived under American occupation. I was engaged to a girl who spent her childhood in a refugee camp in Thailand. I went to one war, and if I have my way I'll stay in it. I think I know something more about war than your average bear. Especially since not too long ago I, myself, was one of those "animals" ... and if history had worked its way a bit differently one of my parents, as an "animal" would have died under an atomic bomb. So much for "values" and "decency" and all that chivalrous bullsh%t that war supposedly has.
Tell you all who have forgotten what ... the greatness of America is its magnamity in peace. This nation is the only nation on earth that holds as a pillar of its national identity the chance to start over and to be redeemed. To be anything less than swift and without mercy in war will destroy this nation. I believe the crews of the "Enola Gay" and "Bock's Car" did the right thing. If this nation can't pull together and do what it can, right now, to destroy this contagion by any and all means necessary, then maybe only another 9/11 will do it.
A few decades ago a few terrorists shot dead would have done the trick, but morals got in the way of using assassination. A few years ago the pursuit of terrorists across the Pakistani frontier would have done the trick, but fear of world opinion got in the way of using full-out invasion. Now, we see bodies of Americans burn and be hung in the streets, but fear of being "non-American" gets in the way of breaking a city and destroying the contagion. Once the disease spreads far enough, no amount of scalpel work will remove the cancer. Every day makes that so much more likely.
I really, really hate sounding like a pedant over this thread, but Fallujah needs to be broken. I'm not saying rape the women; that's a failure of personal morality. I'm not saying shoot bystanders; that's a failure of fire discipline. But you, as a member of the American public, influence what is done over there more than you care to admit, and good Marines and soldiers are going to die implementing some spineless appeal to "humanity and the American way" because political hacks think pandering to puppy lovers will get them votes.
You don't have to support the troops, but if you're going to indulge in polemics that will hamstring the service branches with ridiculoous ROEs that look good in front of the camera, just don't say a damn thing. The service branches already have enough cowards and retards lurking in the ranks as things stand. Or just vote Kerry. That will get you the results you may have wanted all along.
"And Carthage must be destroyed" ... peace out.
Well, I would dearly love to indulge your position on this, but since you weren't there beside me all those times I took fire, went hungry, went thirsty, and walked through the wreckage of Iraq that these people largely visited upon themselves, I find your insistence on kid gloves highly suspect. I never said we should visit unrestrained destruction on these people in Fallujah; that isn't what I have advocated here. The gist of my argument is as follows:
(1) This is a war for national survival, but the American public (and as it appears many in this forum) don't see it as such.
(2) The more we pull our punches, the more we give the terrorists time to gain strength and gain legitimacy amongst their own people.
(3) Both (1) and (2) prolong the conflict, and the suffering on all sides. Real mercy is to end the war by decisive means, before the terrorist contagion spreads. Not doing so means that eventually, we will be visited by great ruin upon this nation. America has made hard, hard choices in the past. As the descendant of mortal enemies, I tell you all this: If the American public shies away from confrontation, every nation on earth will pay the price. The hard choices bring peace and will make friends of enemies. The easy way out will bleed everyone longer. The more we all screw around, the greater the catastrophe waiting for us all.
-Paco
To be blunt, I give "ideals" no credence. If it comes to pass that because of idealists at home strangling us with ROEs and "we should be nice" as the terrorists solidify their base, resulting in the entire Arab world unifying like the Japanese did, heart and soul, determined to kill every American, you bet I'd lase a target for a nuke even if it killed me. For those of you who advocate Hollywood notions of commando raids and pinpoint airstrikes as some sort of realistic solution for all of this, I highly suggest you either take a trip to Iraq as a civilian, or join the military. Having relatives who have done their service does not count. Pull your weight. For those in this forum who have served in the past, thank you. For those in this forum who actively fight to keep the United States free of the contagion of foreign and domestic enemies, as civilians or LEOs, thank you. For those of you who are "internet generals" interested in bitching about the conduct of the war from the sanctuary of your own home, I find your motives suspect and your understanding of this war even more so. I really don't care if my suggestions in this forum are implemented or not, because I do not make those decisions, and I understand that. I speak from my level as a line dog on what I believe would work, should I be one of those implementing the measures. I would much rather live with the knowledge that my family is safe, rather than dead in pursuit of someone else's nebulous ideology.
-Paco
I should have lots and lots of cousins, but I don't. Both sides of my family lost members to the following wars: The Japanese invasion of China, the Second World War, the Chinese Civil War, and the Korean War. The result is that the older generations of my family live with a lot of pain. Both my parents starved after the Second World War. My mother was a war refugee who had nightmares all her life. Rules in war? You mean those set-piece battles of antiquity that don't go into detail over the rape and massacre of camp followers, the pillaging of the countryside, the torture of prisoners? Oh right. I had two uncles fight in Vietnam. Both my parents lived under American occupation. I was engaged to a girl who spent her childhood in a refugee camp in Thailand. I went to one war, and if I have my way I'll stay in it. I think I know something more about war than your average bear. Especially since not too long ago I, myself, was one of those "animals" ... and if history had worked its way a bit differently one of my parents, as an "animal" would have died under an atomic bomb. So much for "values" and "decency" and all that chivalrous bullsh%t that war supposedly has.
Tell you all who have forgotten what ... the greatness of America is its magnamity in peace. This nation is the only nation on earth that holds as a pillar of its national identity the chance to start over and to be redeemed. To be anything less than swift and without mercy in war will destroy this nation. I believe the crews of the "Enola Gay" and "Bock's Car" did the right thing. If this nation can't pull together and do what it can, right now, to destroy this contagion by any and all means necessary, then maybe only another 9/11 will do it.
A few decades ago a few terrorists shot dead would have done the trick, but morals got in the way of using assassination. A few years ago the pursuit of terrorists across the Pakistani frontier would have done the trick, but fear of world opinion got in the way of using full-out invasion. Now, we see bodies of Americans burn and be hung in the streets, but fear of being "non-American" gets in the way of breaking a city and destroying the contagion. Once the disease spreads far enough, no amount of scalpel work will remove the cancer. Every day makes that so much more likely.
I really, really hate sounding like a pedant over this thread, but Fallujah needs to be broken. I'm not saying rape the women; that's a failure of personal morality. I'm not saying shoot bystanders; that's a failure of fire discipline. But you, as a member of the American public, influence what is done over there more than you care to admit, and good Marines and soldiers are going to die implementing some spineless appeal to "humanity and the American way" because political hacks think pandering to puppy lovers will get them votes.
You don't have to support the troops, but if you're going to indulge in polemics that will hamstring the service branches with ridiculoous ROEs that look good in front of the camera, just don't say a damn thing. The service branches already have enough cowards and retards lurking in the ranks as things stand. Or just vote Kerry. That will get you the results you may have wanted all along.
"And Carthage must be destroyed" ... peace out.
a random jerk
Member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2004
- Messages
- 24
My personal opinion regarding ideology is pretty simple. The American ideology is practicality. Right now, it seems a lot more practical to visit some serious carnage on Fallujah than watch a handful of soldiers die every day because we don't eliminate known bastions of enemy resistance.
If only we would. But I fear we won't respond at all.
If only we would. But I fear we won't respond at all.
Like any would betray their family members and risk being disowned, or worse, have reprisals done on their families. Right.
Surgical strikes? Once we start dropping JDAMs, all bets are off. Like they'd turn anyone over after we start nailing them. Sure.
Like the SpecOps people don't have enough to do right now without having to be committed to a wasteful frontal assault on a city. As if all of 1st MEF and the Ranger Regiment (woefully too few for something like this) want to go down in history as having massacred a city of half a million, with a large number of women (not allowed outside) and children (ditto for many) and elderly (probably don't understand what is going on) in addition to the men (of whom the good ones quake in fear and hide) ... and the insinuation that Rangers and Marines would NOT volunteer for a mission kind of bespeaks of how stupid the entire exercise sounds. Smacks of Hollywood to me. Maybe we could commit Sean Penn, Charlie Sheen, Demi Moore to the siege as well. They can lead the way.
I was talking to a friend of mine from work today; one of his buddies in Baghdad (we all keep in touch with old friends who leave our units and go elsewhere) said that the Iraqis have been turning in lots of names after each car bombing. It was all fine when just American troops were getting hit, but apparently now that the insurgents are hitting civilians indiscriminately, the Iraqi public is really sick of it and is coming forward with names after every incident, unprompted by reward. I remember we had that a lot in our sector up north too. Good people would come up to us and report who or what was hitting Turkish tanker trucks, robbing civilian houses, setting off IEDs, reporting arms caches, etc. Of course there were a lot of people just trying to get revenge on their neighbor by using us, but there were a lot of good civic-minded Iraqi people out there.
Fallujah, on the other hand, smacks of being an irredeemable cause. I think tactics should be left to the troops on the ground, rather than letting imagination dictate. Pray the Kurds get their own independent state rather than get stuck with nationhood with a bunch of vermin like that found in Fallujah.
Peace out.
joab
Member
The point is not that they do, it is only that they are given every opportunity to
The point is not that they do, but to give them every oppotunity to, and to show them what they are truly up against if they don't
Maybe you should read it again I believe Rangers and Marines were mentioned as the main component of the action
I'm all for sending them in as an advance negotiating team with orders to deal with any uncopreative attitudes with extremely harsh language
The insinuation that our Marines and Soldiers would participate in a massacre of unarmed women and children and scared old men was made by you not me
Well DUH. Also armchair commanding, weekend warrioring, and how about potbellied posturing. The whole thread is an exercise in frustration alleviation, As if any of our suggestions are going to make it to the warroom. As the father of 2 Hapas probably about your age I have to tell you lighten up son even if nobody wants to admit it we all know that this is a fantasy thread.
longeyes
member
What this thread is depends on how people use it. It's only a "fantasy thread" if people believe that there's no connection between their own thoughts and feelings and the actions of their government. Seems to me that's the core of the frustration and the core symptom of the entire problem that much of this forum keeps coming back to.
fix
Member
hapafish,
You are on your game brother. Keep up the good work and more importantly, maintain your focus. You are another shining example of how well the troops "get it", while sadly much of the public does not. Glad your on our team.
You are on your game brother. Keep up the good work and more importantly, maintain your focus. You are another shining example of how well the troops "get it", while sadly much of the public does not. Glad your on our team.
-OK, back from a busy weekend, and this horse is still being kicked! Ha! Well, where do I begin... Oh:
-For all the servicemen out there, and specifically hapafish, please, please, don't bring out the old dinosaur of 'well, if you weren't there, shutup and sitout...' balloni. Ya' don't have to be a serviceman to be an asset to this country and be an active patriot.
For hapafish:
-While your service gives you insight in some areas, I would say you're also biased by the very fact that you are a part of the war. But, having said that, my girfriend's brother, a Marine MP that was last stationed in Kabul is COMPLETELY against the war and has gotten in trouble because of voicing his concern. He also was joined by a handful of other Marines in the disapproval of the war. He's been shot at, returned fired and got a medal for putting his man down: he's not a coward and served his 9 or so months before his unit? coming stateside. He could validate alot of your experience hapafish and would agree with probably all that you saw there, but he still comes away from it with a different view. Some of the most anit-war advocates I see, talk, and hear about are vets from other wars. Go figure.
-I think you make a great argument but don't start putting our opinion down because I wasn't 'there' or say that I'm not serving my country ("pull you weight") unless I'm a cop, soldier, or some pro-destroy-Islam person. I'm not a some puppy-love hugger creep. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Alittle respect please. I must admit that I find it funny that you always sign : "peace out"...
-As for Rileymc:
-FOR THE LAST TIME: it doesn't matter if our oppponent follows the rules of war, it has everything to do that WE are Americans and attempt even in the face of defeat, or even against a truly evil enemy to comport ourselves as best we can. Ofcourse we should use the most expedient way possible, as long as it doesn't comprimise our integrity and the personal mental health of our soldiers.
-I'm not 'blaming America'. I'm just pointing out that to call them animals, as a people, is silly since we've done some pretty crappy things too. The men who burned up and chopped up those fellas have got some serious problems and they need to be brought to justice, just like war criminals of old such as the Nazis. If they resist, shoot them. That simple.
-As for my uncle, no, he's not some criminal. If you knew your law you know that a commanding officer can only try what he can definitevly prove and in a time of war, lots of thing fall through the cracks. Doesn't mean it didn't happen and folks didn't know about it. He would try to deal with it as best as possible and told me he 'curbed' alot of unsavory behavior in his own ways, whatever that means.
For all:
- I remember hearing the whole 'it's a fight for the whole enchilada; our whoooole nation is at risk' with Vietnam, and with any prosturing Communist red did. I think the last time we DID have a touch and go TEOTWAWKI was in the Cuban Missle Crisis and WWII. We'll get through this. I saw those towers go down, lost people I knew, saw the jumping bodies... NYers feel WE in NYC WILL be attacked again but live with the possibility as best we can. I'll say this much: I don't feel any safter since the ousting of Saddam. Oh, that's right: there are still millions of Muslims to finish off yet...
-Lastly, these forums are good places to get the pulse of a cross-section of people that, at first glance, would be considered to be unified on their stance towards our conduct in Iraq as well as the war. It should give EVERYONE here, both sides, a moment of pause, that we aren't in agreement and that we the RKBAers, voters, active folks of this forum are sooo polarized. Hear from you soon, I'm sure!
-Peace Out,
paco
-For all the servicemen out there, and specifically hapafish, please, please, don't bring out the old dinosaur of 'well, if you weren't there, shutup and sitout...' balloni. Ya' don't have to be a serviceman to be an asset to this country and be an active patriot.
For hapafish:
-While your service gives you insight in some areas, I would say you're also biased by the very fact that you are a part of the war. But, having said that, my girfriend's brother, a Marine MP that was last stationed in Kabul is COMPLETELY against the war and has gotten in trouble because of voicing his concern. He also was joined by a handful of other Marines in the disapproval of the war. He's been shot at, returned fired and got a medal for putting his man down: he's not a coward and served his 9 or so months before his unit? coming stateside. He could validate alot of your experience hapafish and would agree with probably all that you saw there, but he still comes away from it with a different view. Some of the most anit-war advocates I see, talk, and hear about are vets from other wars. Go figure.
-I think you make a great argument but don't start putting our opinion down because I wasn't 'there' or say that I'm not serving my country ("pull you weight") unless I'm a cop, soldier, or some pro-destroy-Islam person. I'm not a some puppy-love hugger creep. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Alittle respect please. I must admit that I find it funny that you always sign : "peace out"...
-As for Rileymc:
-FOR THE LAST TIME: it doesn't matter if our oppponent follows the rules of war, it has everything to do that WE are Americans and attempt even in the face of defeat, or even against a truly evil enemy to comport ourselves as best we can. Ofcourse we should use the most expedient way possible, as long as it doesn't comprimise our integrity and the personal mental health of our soldiers.
-I'm not 'blaming America'. I'm just pointing out that to call them animals, as a people, is silly since we've done some pretty crappy things too. The men who burned up and chopped up those fellas have got some serious problems and they need to be brought to justice, just like war criminals of old such as the Nazis. If they resist, shoot them. That simple.
-As for my uncle, no, he's not some criminal. If you knew your law you know that a commanding officer can only try what he can definitevly prove and in a time of war, lots of thing fall through the cracks. Doesn't mean it didn't happen and folks didn't know about it. He would try to deal with it as best as possible and told me he 'curbed' alot of unsavory behavior in his own ways, whatever that means.
For all:
- I remember hearing the whole 'it's a fight for the whole enchilada; our whoooole nation is at risk' with Vietnam, and with any prosturing Communist red did. I think the last time we DID have a touch and go TEOTWAWKI was in the Cuban Missle Crisis and WWII. We'll get through this. I saw those towers go down, lost people I knew, saw the jumping bodies... NYers feel WE in NYC WILL be attacked again but live with the possibility as best we can. I'll say this much: I don't feel any safter since the ousting of Saddam. Oh, that's right: there are still millions of Muslims to finish off yet...
-Lastly, these forums are good places to get the pulse of a cross-section of people that, at first glance, would be considered to be unified on their stance towards our conduct in Iraq as well as the war. It should give EVERYONE here, both sides, a moment of pause, that we aren't in agreement and that we the RKBAers, voters, active folks of this forum are sooo polarized. Hear from you soon, I'm sure!
-Peace Out,
paco
jimpeel
Member
Hapafish has left the building after a mere 46 posts.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=915228#post915228
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=915228#post915228
Hapafish R.I.P.
wow... that's really a shame: as much as I disaggreed with him, I thought many of his responses were insightful. Too bad. I'd like to tell him that there will always be blow-hearts out there but everyone, even they, have the right to express their opinion. It's a good lesson to come outta the cave and learn what esle is being said. I think it's unhealthy to surround yourself with only like-minded people: great way to become crystalized, unyielding, and consequently flawed as time and evolution role foward.
-paco
p.s. hapafish: if you're reading this: come back. You had alot to offer and maybe even something to learn from us 'nutcase-armchair commandoes' Hope to see you soon, if not: peace.
wow... that's really a shame: as much as I disaggreed with him, I thought many of his responses were insightful. Too bad. I'd like to tell him that there will always be blow-hearts out there but everyone, even they, have the right to express their opinion. It's a good lesson to come outta the cave and learn what esle is being said. I think it's unhealthy to surround yourself with only like-minded people: great way to become crystalized, unyielding, and consequently flawed as time and evolution role foward.
-paco
p.s. hapafish: if you're reading this: come back. You had alot to offer and maybe even something to learn from us 'nutcase-armchair commandoes'
Hope to see you soon, if not: peace.jimpeel
Member
Paco
I feel as you do. Unfortunately, hapafish takes life a bit too seriously to the point he tilts at windmills to his own detriment. He wasn't able to separate the wheat from the chaff; that idiots have rights, too, regardless of his opinion to the contrary. If one defends the rights of idiots to be idiots; then those who defend the idiots are themselves idiots as well.
Here is my last post to him. Sorry he missed it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=915237#post915237
I feel as you do. Unfortunately, hapafish takes life a bit too seriously to the point he tilts at windmills to his own detriment. He wasn't able to separate the wheat from the chaff; that idiots have rights, too, regardless of his opinion to the contrary. If one defends the rights of idiots to be idiots; then those who defend the idiots are themselves idiots as well.
Here is my last post to him. Sorry he missed it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=915237#post915237
fix
Member
To be perfectly honest, I've been having trouble doing that myself as of late.
- Status