So my wife and her family at one time were gun neutral, they wernt anti, but they dont own any guns. Her cousin killed himself about 15 years ago and yesterday a family friend killed himself. I just got her started talking about shooting my pistol and now all my work to get her to accept guns has been flushed down the toilet. How can I make any pro gun arguement now after these two very hurtful events. I would like some ideas on how to aproach this subject again when the situation settels down. Please serious responces only, thanks.
Another suicide with a gun, How can I defend guns now?(serious responces please)
- Thread starter Eric F
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Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Quite frankly, you can't. Back off on the topic until you sense that they're ready to breach it. Forcing it in this situation would do much more harm than good.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Yep, time heals all wounds. Wait a while before introducing logic into the emotion.
rbernie
Contributing Member
This is not the time to make any points. As things move downstream, you can begin to discuss the human choices involved. Perhaps in time, the point will be made that the object was/is blameless for the choices of whomever wields it.
swing2hard
Member
If someone is set on killing themselves, they will find a way. Be it a gun, knife, pills, or whatever they can get their hands on. It is unfortunate to hear that happened but guns dont kill people, people kill people. I have lost several good friends to suicide during my high school years, one of them hung themselves & another with a knife. So for someone to blame suicide on a gun is not thinking very clearly which is very understandable at this time.
Grief sucks. I know.
That said, many people know someone who kills him/herself with X and don't suddenly want X to be illegal.
This isn't the time to make a logical argument. Emotions rule these people right now, and that's just how it goes.
Emotions may rule them all the time, and that may be right to criticize, but not right now.
That said, many people know someone who kills him/herself with X and don't suddenly want X to be illegal.
This isn't the time to make a logical argument. Emotions rule these people right now, and that's just how it goes.
Emotions may rule them all the time, and that may be right to criticize, but not right now.
Izaak Walton
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I wish I had an answer but sadly at times answers are few and far between.
When depression, anger or guilt overcomes some people we can do nothing to prevent their actions. My cousin some 30 years ago killed himself. Not with a firearm but he is still gone.
Just last night we had another murder at VA Tech. This time with a knife.
We may never know why it happens. We just have to be strong and try to aid the grieving.
When depression, anger or guilt overcomes some people we can do nothing to prevent their actions. My cousin some 30 years ago killed himself. Not with a firearm but he is still gone.
Just last night we had another murder at VA Tech. This time with a knife.
We may never know why it happens. We just have to be strong and try to aid the grieving.
expvideo
Member
My grandfather was dying of emphasima and decided to speed up the process with his .38 special. My grandmother is very uncomfortable around guns now. However, most (I think all) of his children, including my father, still carry or own guns. I carry a gun. There really aren't any antis in the family at all, except my grandmother, who is not very vocal about it but isn't ever going to change her mind. To clarify, she isn't even in support of gun control, she just doesn't like them. She doesn't talk about it either.
guns are good
Did those suicides die from a gun? you dont say. Just show her or anyone all the good guns do vs. bad like i love reading the monthly reports in rifle mag. about guns used to defend life and liberty. the FBI annual stats. tell her that Aprox. 190 million people died in countries were guns were banned! goolge you topic or youtube it!
Did those suicides die from a gun? you dont say. Just show her or anyone all the good guns do vs. bad like i love reading the monthly reports in rifle mag. about guns used to defend life and liberty. the FBI annual stats. tell her that Aprox. 190 million people died in countries were guns were banned! goolge you topic or youtube it!
moi_self26
Member
When the topic isn't quite as sensitive as it is right now I would explain to her that his depression was the weapon, the gun was just a tool that he and his depression employed. He could have just as easily employed the use of a garage and a garden hose, a knife, medication, run out in front of traffic, used a rope, etc. Explain that a gun is a tool, and like any other tool it only does what the person utilizing it makes it do. Then go into all the times that guns have actually helped people.
J Lambs
Member
There is no cure all answer, but most people will agree that if a person wants to do that, they are going to find a way. I saw this bumper sticker and I think it sums it up pretty well.
If guns kill people then…
spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
If guns kill people then…
spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
Grump
Member
Read up on Japan's teen suicide rate and get some info on whether they throw themselves in front of trains or slash their wrists or whatever most often. Know the most common means.
Next time the dear departed is mentioned, shake your head sadly and mention how glad you are that the US is NOT like Japan, where X,XXX schoolkids kill themselves every year over bad grades. So sad it happened, so grateful not so often as in Japan.
Once there is perspective on then proportion of the SUICIDE problem as compared between countries, then later on there is hope of mentioning the fact that the departed's choice of killing method is in reality irrelevant. The emotional pain and false thinking to the end of a fictional "limb" on the mental tree of reason is the true problem.
In my personal history, the EDP with suicidal thoughts decided to first "protest" the Army's neglect of psych problems by shooting a bunch of people first. My friend died, but the unarmed team he led to the shooter stopped the shooting AND prevented any suicide.
Next time the dear departed is mentioned, shake your head sadly and mention how glad you are that the US is NOT like Japan, where X,XXX schoolkids kill themselves every year over bad grades. So sad it happened, so grateful not so often as in Japan.
Once there is perspective on then proportion of the SUICIDE problem as compared between countries, then later on there is hope of mentioning the fact that the departed's choice of killing method is in reality irrelevant. The emotional pain and false thinking to the end of a fictional "limb" on the mental tree of reason is the true problem.
In my personal history, the EDP with suicidal thoughts decided to first "protest" the Army's neglect of psych problems by shooting a bunch of people first. My friend died, but the unarmed team he led to the shooter stopped the shooting AND prevented any suicide.
Kind of Blued
Member
The problem with your situation is that before these unfortunate instances, the other individuals who were effected didn't have experience with firearms. Now (and 15 years ago), the only time they think about guns is when they think about their lost family members and friends.
Sure, people kill themselves with cars, knives, cigarettes, swimming pools, drugs, etc, some even more often than with guns, but nearly everyone has experiences with these things which did not include any harm to anyone.
The problem is an illogical association, but it isn't your problem to fix right now.
Sure, people kill themselves with cars, knives, cigarettes, swimming pools, drugs, etc, some even more often than with guns, but nearly everyone has experiences with these things which did not include any harm to anyone.
The problem is an illogical association, but it isn't your problem to fix right now.
BTW when my son was lying in the hospital, we would have given anything for him to live. I learned a bit about what I think life is worth.
For a while, if someone had told me that they wanted to kill themselves, I might have handed them a gun to do it with. I don't have a whole lot of room for someone who values his/her OWN life so little.
I've mellowed out since, but only a bit.
I feel sorry for the people left behind by suicide. It's one of the worst things you could possibly go through.
Remember that, and let these people grieve without your arguments about guns. Just tell them you disagree, if they insist on bringing it up, and leave it alone.
For a while, if someone had told me that they wanted to kill themselves, I might have handed them a gun to do it with. I don't have a whole lot of room for someone who values his/her OWN life so little.
I've mellowed out since, but only a bit.
I feel sorry for the people left behind by suicide. It's one of the worst things you could possibly go through.
Remember that, and let these people grieve without your arguments about guns. Just tell them you disagree, if they insist on bringing it up, and leave it alone.
moi_self26
Member
The problem IS an illogical association, but I don't know that it would have made a difference if they were exposed to guns before all that. I had a very close loved one hold a gun to their head while they contemplated pulling the trigger. I had never been exposed to guns before that point....... the image was burned into my brain and it was something that was extremely hard for me to cope with. But I NEVER, NOT ONCE blamed the gun. I did struggle with blaming myself and any number of other things, which WAS illogical to. The problem is when something like that happens, people NEED someone to blame..... most often times, it's easiest for people to blame the gun because it's an inanimate object.
Carlos Cabeza
Member
I would leave it alone for a while. Nothing you can say will have any affect on someone who is/ was closely involved with the deceased. This type of event is all some people need to justify making guns illegal based entirely on emotion.
Surely there were some indicators of the persons intent, yes/ no ?
Regardless, I am very sorry for those involved.
CC
Surely there were some indicators of the persons intent, yes/ no ?
Regardless, I am very sorry for those involved.
CC
Doc_Jude
Member
How can you defend bridges? Rope? Tall buildings? Cars? Water? Razor Blades? Pharmaceutical Drugs?
Guns are not made to commit suicide with, but they can be misused, just like any other implement that facilitates a suicide. There's nothing to defend.
Guns are not made to commit suicide with, but they can be misused, just like any other implement that facilitates a suicide. There's nothing to defend.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Suicide really isn't a "gun" issue. A motivated person intent on suicide will find a way whether there are guns around or not.
It's the act that's tragic, not the method. That's really the only way to "debate" the issue. Unfortunately that kind of thing is driven more by emotion than rational thinking. Someone or something has to be "at fault" for a suicide, and families don't want to blame their loved one directly. Very sad thing, suicide.
It's the act that's tragic, not the method. That's really the only way to "debate" the issue. Unfortunately that kind of thing is driven more by emotion than rational thinking. Someone or something has to be "at fault" for a suicide, and families don't want to blame their loved one directly. Very sad thing, suicide.
Deer Hunter
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Let it be for a bit.
But then again, I see ODs all the time. No one ever blames the pills.
But then again, I see ODs all the time. No one ever blames the pills.
CDH
Member
You don't have to defend guns. They are just tools that can be used in many ways, good and bad.
What I'm wondering is how your wife can defend the family friend for killing him/herself.
That suicide was all about a person deciding to end their own life. It is not about saying "Hey, there's a gun, so I think I'll kill myself".
The suicide had their own reasons for putting an end to their life, and the gun had absolutely nothing to do with that decision.
The gun was only the method, not the reason.
If the gun hadn't been there, there would have been a knife or a razor blade or a rope or a multi-story building, or any number of ways to end a life.
The wife's grief is understandable. Her unreasonable fear of guns is not.
What I'm wondering is how your wife can defend the family friend for killing him/herself.
That suicide was all about a person deciding to end their own life. It is not about saying "Hey, there's a gun, so I think I'll kill myself".
The suicide had their own reasons for putting an end to their life, and the gun had absolutely nothing to do with that decision.
The gun was only the method, not the reason.
If the gun hadn't been there, there would have been a knife or a razor blade or a rope or a multi-story building, or any number of ways to end a life.
The wife's grief is understandable. Her unreasonable fear of guns is not.
I think you've made a good choice on waiting to let the pain of this subside before approaching your wife about shooting.
The simplest thing to do is look at the statistics on suicides and on gun use. There have been studies conducted into the relationship between suicide and firearms. Those studies have shown that there is no definitive link. Countries like Japan that have higher suicide rates than the US have nearly no civilian ownership of firearms. Countries like Switzerland with very high rates of firearms in the home have a negligible suicide rate. People who commit suicide will use whatever means are available and the use of firearms in this country is a matter of convenience and not causal.
The simplest thing to do is look at the statistics on suicides and on gun use. There have been studies conducted into the relationship between suicide and firearms. Those studies have shown that there is no definitive link. Countries like Japan that have higher suicide rates than the US have nearly no civilian ownership of firearms. Countries like Switzerland with very high rates of firearms in the home have a negligible suicide rate. People who commit suicide will use whatever means are available and the use of firearms in this country is a matter of convenience and not causal.
Shung
Member
Japan as nearly NO firearms available but still has the highest suicide rate..
the suicides are a society problem... means do not count in rates..
It's like saying banning thermometers will prevent people from having fever..
not true however.. we are in the top 3 suicide rate in Europe I think.. But guns are of course not the only mean.
the suicides are a society problem... means do not count in rates..
It's like saying banning thermometers will prevent people from having fever..
not true however.. we are in the top 3 suicide rate in Europe I think.. But guns are of course not the only mean.
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