Anti-freedom stance by Florida gun shop

[p35bhp09]

It always amazes me that on a firearms forum where people argue the case for everyone having the right to carry we can have so many people that are o.k. with being disarmed.

 

[Zen21Tao]

I have shopped at Pickett MANY MANY times (it is one of my few local gun shops) and have never encountered this problem. Nearly everytime I have been in there I have been carrying IWB or in pocket. I can't say that I agree with their decision to prevent armed carry in their store but I do respect and support their freedom, as a business owner, to do so.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

A gun dealer I know told me that his insurance rquired he post that very same sign. He says he does not "frisk" customers but he has to comply with the requirement to post the sign. If someone is dumb enough to point out they are violating the rule he asks them to leave but if they are smart enough to keep their mouth shut no harm is done.

 

[CZ-100]

If and when they asked if I was armed, "I would just say NO" it's none of their business. Its not like they are going to search you.

 

[Bobhwry]

Blame the lawyers and our litigous society not the gun shop!! If it's just one weekend a year and during a special event where their liability or exposure to an accident could be high, I don't see the big deal!! He was just being a prudent businessman.
There was an incident in Dallas a few years ago in which a gang broke into a gun store. A police officer responded to the alarm and was shot and killed as the gang exited the store. The family of the officer sued the store for negligence and it was settled for an "undisclosed" amount!!

 

[Green Lantern]

At a gun show, I guess I could understand.

On the shop itself? "Awwww, heck NO!"

I agree with policies stating guns brought in for business (sell, repair,etc) should be unloaded.

Hmmmm....maybe the best thing to do would be to "sort the wheat from the chaff" by posting a sign saying "no guns allowed unless otherwise authorized by law?"

Maybe that way the noobs who are more likely to pull out their CCW to show it to their buddy will stay away while more savvy types will carry discreetly and be happy?

 

[Correia]

As a gunstore owner, I think that policy is just plain stupid. That is about the most offensive thing you can do to your customer base. It is insulting.

And once again, stupid people don't obey signs anyway. Otherwise I could put up a big sign that read "don't do stupid stuff" and everybody would be good.

One point on the zip ties at gunshows. Those have nothing to do with being PC, or even being a safety measure from the gunshow. To have a show, you need liability insurance. There are only a couple of insurance companies in the nation that will provide reasonable liability insurance to a gunshow. Both of those that I'm aware of require the promoter to be a member of the National Association of Arms Sellers. Part of the NAAS agreement and safety rules are the zip ties.

So not zipties = no membership in the association = no insurance = no show.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Correia,

Let me pose the question this way...a guy you do not know at all (a complete stranger) comes into your shop armed and loaded. Because he is a complete moron and does something stupid like drop his weapon, have a negligent discharge, etc one of the other customers is wounded. Do you except full reposibility for that other wounded customer since it was your policy of allowing loaded weapons into your store?

The law would see it that way. You would be the one ending up getting sued and possibly losing everything you own. Is that a risk you are willing to take kmowing you are not only ricking your own future but the future of your spouse, children, etc. If so, then great. it is okay to take a stand as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. To me, it would not be a matter of respecting other people's rights to carry a weapon. it would be about protecting the livelihood of myself and my family on my privately owned property.

 

[beaucoup ammo]

" “Annual Fall Expo.”

Is this a Gun Show..or a "viewing" of guns? A public exhibition where you come in and look..a display? I mean, you couldn't sell..unless it was out of the trunk of your car.

The name "Expo" is gray at best.

 

[Ed Ames]

Around here, most of the gunstores I've visited either don't have any signs at all or have signs like "Police and CCWs please keep firearms holstered and/or concealed. All other guns must be unloaded with action open and checked at the front counter," on the front door, visible to those entering the store.

Of course this is California where if you can carry at all you can carry almost anywhere. Some of you in "new CCW" states have absurd rules about where you can carry.

 

[NineseveN]

Correia,

Let me pose the question this way...a guy you do not know at all (a complete stranger) comes into your shop armed and loaded. Because he is a complete moron and does something stupid like drop his weapon, have a negligent discharge, etc one of the other customers is wounded. Do you except full reposibility for that other wounded customer since it was your policy of allowing loaded weapons into your store?

The law would see it that way. You would be the one ending up getting sued and possibly losing everything you own.

I dunno about Correia's neck of the woods or where you're from (CA? Okay, that makes sense), but that's a blanket statement that doesn't apply equally across the board. There are standards that have to be met for criminal charges, but yes, anyone can bring a civil suit if they please. Then again, nothing is stopping them from doing in so in this case even if the proprietor did display those signs. The legal argument would have been for metal detectors or something else. Some states do not allow such signs or provide that they hold no legal weight, so there really is no legal standard to base a suit on in those cases.

 

[rbernie]

Let me pose the question this way...a guy you do not know at all (a complete stranger) comes into your shop armed and loaded. Because he is a complete moron and does something stupid like drop his weapon, have a negligent discharge, etc one of the other customers is wounded. Do you except full responsibility for that other wounded customer since it was your policy of allowing loaded weapons into your store?

How is that gun store any different from any other public establishment in that regard? More to the point, isn't this the Brady Bunch argument - that the demand for public safety begets the loss of individual rights for everyone 'just in case something bad MIGHT happen'?

The one thing that the apologists seem to be dancing around is that CCW is supposed to mean that we're legally allowed and (at least minimally) trained to handle firearms. That NEVER removes the possibility of an accident, but NOTHING can do that. Either being a CHL holder means that I can be trusted to hold a pointy pencil, to run with scissors, and to carry a loaded firearm, or it doesn't. There is no moral middle ground.

I just don't get it - folks will get their panties all in a wad over the fact that the bank won't let 'em CCW in it, but stumble all over themselves to allow a gun store (who ironically makes a living in part by selling CCW gear) to deny them that same right.

I said it early in this thread and I'll repeat it in the hopes that SOMEBODY addresses the concept - Either CCWers are trusted to carry, or they're not. You can't play both sides of that fence.

EDITED TO ADD: Everyone is free to make their own decisions as regards these things, but I could not in good conscience give my business to someone who profits from my CHL but won't allow me to exercise it in their establishment. They could be my best friend; it doesn't matter. The hypocrisy would be too great to tolerate. I have no issues with a non-gunny establishment taking a 'no CCW' stance, but when you make a living in firearms you have a moral responsibility to respect your customers.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

NineseveN,

It is all about intent. If you can show that you did everything within reason to prevent such an occurance you are more likely to held as liable as if you fostered the "dangerous" enviroment.

It also goes further. I would actively not want my customers to carry if I owned a shop just to prevent such a event and to help protect myself and my employees from idiots. I know I would not allow stangers to carry a weapon into my home.

 

[Rebeldon]

Many store policies regarding firearms can be tied to the store's insurance policy. Many gun stores have signs saying "NO LOADED GUNS". Can you blame them. Almost every gun store I know has stories about people have an AD in their store. I've seen a bullet hole in the tile ceiling at one dealer in Alabama. I wouldn't be surprised if their insurance premium is lower if they have "NO LOADED GUNS" signs.

 

[kd7nqb]

Ranges Too

The range I shoot at does not allow CCW in their building and all firearms including long guns must be compleatly encased, even if its a gun suck or shoe box. Also they have never checked inside the range bag to see if anything is loaded so I know its common for guys to put their CCW in a range bag and then walk in.

 

[NineseveN]

NineseveN,

It is all about intent. If you can show that you did everything within reason to prevent such an occurance you are more likely to held as liable as if you fostered the "dangerous" enviroment.

It also goes further. I would actively not want my customers to carry if I owned a shop just to prevent such a event and to help protect myself and my employees from idiots. I know I would not allow stangers to carry a weapon into my home.

Actually, that's not how it works at all. Failure to prohibit a perfectly legal activity is not the same a fostering a dangerous environment. There's a reasonable standard (though it ultimately comes down to a jury or judge) involved. If there were not, serving even one drink to someone that later is involved in an auto accident would grant automatic liability, but it doesn't. In order to be sued successfully for negligence, one would have to be shown to be negligent. Negligence is not a failure to hang a "no guns" sign at a gun shop, negligence would be allowing customers to load store weapons and test them for function without any safety procedures or precautions

Negligence is not owning a swimming pool and having children over to your home, negligence is allowing children access to or around the pool unsupervised.

Sure, you could sue, but I doubt the suit would get far in the majority of courts.

Getting the picture?

 

[NineseveN]

Gander Mountain, a large chain store that sells guns and outdoor gear has a sign that reads: "Firearms must be unloaded and checked at the front counter upon entering the store. *Note: This only applies to guns being brought in for service, this does not apply to holders of concealed carry permits."

They have a huge legal department compared to most gun stores, if there was any increased liability for negligence in taking this stance, they wouldn't take it.

 

[bogie]

Ever been in a gunshow when some idiot accidently lets one go? Neither have I and I want to keep it that way. Too many people too close together handling too many firearms. It ain't got nuthin' to do with rights and has everything to do with safety. You may be the epitome of safe gun handling. You can not say the same for those on either side of you.

I _have_ been in a gun show when some idjit got stupid.

It was a .25.

It bounced of a concrete floor, and hit someone in the leg.

It's the main reason why St. Louis City no longer allows gun shows in the largest venue in the area.

If I had a gun store, after seeing 90% of the bubbas out there, I'd have a sign too... It wouldn't be "legal," and I'd let my more intelligent customers know that they didn't have to worry about anything, but I would NOT want some doof walking in off the street with a loaded and cocked firearm "that he needed to have worked on" and have it "go off."

 

[rbernie]

I know I would not allow stangers to carry a weapon into my home.

Fair statement, but not a propos to a retail establishment that actively solicits foot traffic in the hopes of relieving their wallet of coinage by selling them weapons.

 

[Zen21Tao]

It is all about intent. If you can show that you did everything within reason to prevent such an occurance you are more likely to held as liable as if you fostered the "dangerous" enviroment.

Incorrect. Intent is not a component of a negligent tort. In fact, the very definition of negligence is a tort whereby someone is injured and intent is not present (otherwise you have an intentional tort).

To be held liable for a negligent tort you have to prove:
1. A duty to the injured individual
2. A breach of that duty
3. The breach was the direct proximate cause of the injury

It would be rather easy to prove that you have a duty to the safety of your clientele, that is a given. However, simply allowing individual to obey the states concealed carry laws would not violate that duty. Even it was the case that the duty was breached the causal connection (if one could even be proved) between allowing concealed carry and a customer's ND is not proximate. If it was possible to prove a gunstore owner negligent for allowing someone to obey the states (concealed carry) laws then the State would also have to be deamed negligent.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

NineseveN,

I can see you have never owned your own business. I have and I can tell you that anything that happens inside those walls can be considered your fault. When bad things happen it helps to be able to show you did what you could to prevent it.

We owned part of an online gaming store awhile back. Next door was a paintball store. We were having a problem with kids bringing their paintball markers (they are not called guns) into the store and goofing around with them. Our insurce guy told us we would be liable if something happened so we had to make an official policy regarding the markers. Therefore we posted a sign saying no paintball markers were aloowed inside the store.

About 2 or 3 weeks later one kid brought in his Tippman98 and accidently shot another kid in the face. We ended up having to pay for the kids hospital visit and we were almost sued for negligence until we were able to show that the kid brought the marker in against store policy. Atthat point the families lawyer suggested they drop the case because the child was "willfully violating" a set safety guidline.

 

[gezzer]

Our shop has no signs against carry.

We do however carry ourselves. Pull a gun from your holster-pocket-waistband etc. sweep me a salesman or customer with the muzzle DO NOT BE SURPRISED when we draw our own on you till you are disarmed and possibly removed from the shop.

SAFTEY is the main concern we do not care for your ego when you pull this crap.

 

[rbernie]

Atthat point the families lawyer suggested they drop the case because the child was "willfully violating" a set safety guidline.

And you would have had the same protection, such as it is, had the state seen fit to regulate the carrying of paintguns and required each individual carrying a paint gun in public be fingerprinted, background investigated, and put thru a mandatory training regimen - thus relieving you of the need to determine their staus and qualifications and knowledge of safety guidelines and relevant law in advance.

 

[rbernie]

Our shop has no signs against carry.

We do however carry ourselves. Pull a gun from your holster-pocket-waistband etc. sweep me a salesman or customer with the muzzle DO NOT BE SURPRISED when we draw our own on you

Gilberts in NoVA used to have this sign - 'Don't draw on us and we won't draw on you.."

Fair enough.

 

[Mulliga]

Don't forget damages, Tom.

I was at Pickett's gun expo. Yes, I had to disarm. Yes, I was royally pissed off at it. And yes, the place sorta had that gun show atmosphere (they're not normally like that).

In their defense, they had a lot of "temporary sales people" there. Several of whom swept me with muzzles. Of course, it wasn't just the sales people. Lots of people fondling Bushmasters were pointing them all across the store. It might be just my habit, but I usually point guns at the floor when I'm checking the sight picture and the trigger.

I'll never go there again when they're having an "expo" - the prices weren't anything to write home about ($500 GLOCK 19s aren't that impressive) and the crowds made getting anybody to answer your questions tough.