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Anti-gun forums has changed my mind...

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I'd like to parachute jump from an airplane. Easy for me to say, safe upon Terra Firma. I don't think one truly knows if they can really jump until they're standing in the doorway, thousands of feet above the earth. Wind howling in your ears, sphincter clenched tighter than any other time in your life. Adrenolin and doubt pumping thru your veins. Will you jump now?
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At first I thought this was a poor example. I've probably seen a hundred or so first-timers make that jump. I can't remember anybody that summer riding the plane down.

Then again... perhaps its fitting. When the adrenline is pumping I'd wager even anti-gun person would "see the light" when put on the spot. Then again, I'm an optimist.

To answer the original question, however, I don't care if its Sarah Brady herself. I'd intervene. I might have to stand trial and be judged by 12 but in the end I'll be judged by 1. I place more importance on the latter than on the former.
 
Why would you need to come to the aid of an anti? After all, it's no secret that Feinstein has, at least in the past carried a .38. California state congressman and gun prohibitionist Don Perata has a Califorina concealed carry permit; Tom Diaz, head cheese of the violence policy center admitted in an interview that he owns handguns; and Sarah Brady admitted she bought a 30-'06 for her son.

Seems to me the anti's are just as capable of defending themselves with small arms as anyone here.
 
Powderman --

I think that thread about the anti- guy getting sick over an AR was here. I remember reading it, and now that you have mentioned it I wonder if the protagonist's aunt is still engaged to the doofus, or if she smartened up and dumped him like a hot rock.
 
When I got my carry permit, I thought about this quite a bit. I concluded that I am not trained well enough to protect anyone but myself and my family. Though the heroism instinct may present itself, i've chosen to remain uninvolved relative to the use of my weapon.

in the end, my decision is a manifestation of my power to exercise my will. The anti-gunites have exercised the same power as have those who choose, by inaction, to remain defenseless in a predatory society. Let the consequences follow.

This is not to say that if I were to encounter a rape or assault on a defenseless individual, that I would not render what ever help I could. I would do it without drawing my weapon; unless the perp foolishly focused the assault on me and my hardware.
 
Baba Louie,

Understand too that I usually wind up being punished for doing the good deed or right thing. I am not saying don't do it, just be prepared for the poop that follows.

All the ebst,
Glenn B
 
this guy WENT INTO ANOTHER ROOM, CURLED INTO A FETAL POSITION, AND WHIMPERED AND CRIED AT THE MERE APPEARANCE OF THE EVIL BLACK RIFLE,
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I think I would have had to go in and slap the dogcrap outta him to bring him out of it. :D No need to thank me, it would be my pleasure. ;)
 
I have an Iowa nonprofessional permit to carry weapons. Under the heading

"Reason for issuance:" PERSONAL PROTECTION

I think that says it all.
Vern
 
These threads where the populace of the High Road get to express their self-centered views always leave me feeling bad about society. No one is advocating you go blazing into an unknown situation and try to Rambo the situation. All I would say is if you have a good shot (tactically and legally), why would you just walk away? I am not going to shoot in any situation unless I can legally justify it, but my state is pretty clear that if a reasonable person is in fear of their or another's life, I can shoot. I don't care if the anti I save does testify against me, I am not taking the shot unless I know I can successfully be defended in a court of law.

Second, how are you ever going to convert anti's with this position? Do you honestly believe if you have a justified shoot and you save some morons life they aren't going to be thankful? People say a lot of things when they don't know what they are talking about. When their life is in immediate danger and you save their butt, they are going to think differently about criminals and the criminal mindset. They are going to realize that they were not as tough as they thought they were and they can't beat everyone up and/or that you can't negotiate with truly violent people. And if they don't, oh well, you knew it was a legal shoot and you have the law behind you. Let them testify. Let them be upset. They will get over it.

Rest assured PRK residents, if I see you and you need immediate help and I can legally and tactically do it, I will help you. Obviously the rest of "free America" has something to worry about. :mad:
 
I believe El Rojo that you are assigning a degree of rationality to the anti-gun crowd that many of them do not have when it comes to the subject of guns.

In my experience guns are an emotional issue for the true and die hard anti's. There is no reasoning with them on the subject. No fact however presented will persuade them that guns are not evil hateful things that need to be eradicated from the earth.

There are those who are so convinced of their position that if one stepped in and saved them from death and used a gun to do it that they would chastise and excoriate you to the maximum state they were capable of applying. If that meant suing you for whatever BS reason their lawyers could imagine they'd do it.

I know this to be true as equally as I know the sun will rise tomorrow.
 
I know this to be true as equally as I know the sun will rise tomorrow.
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How? Can you site any real world cases where this occured? Are we to just take your word for it? And even if you could site some specific instances where this happened, we still come back around to the idea that you are able and capable of helping out a fellow human being, but you choose not to. I guess to each their own, but I would rather have a anti-gun friend that is willing to help out a person in need than a gun owning friend that is capable but does nothing out of self-interest or some misguided notion of revenge.
 
I think it would be somthing i would have to go on by a case by case basis.

It also depends on the person, I have to live with myself after ward, no one else does.

An example: When i was in junior high i got sent on an errand by a teacher to the schools office. On the way there i ran across a guy and a girl. They were arguing about somthing and eventually the guy slapped her. I stepped up behind the guy and belted him in the side of the head as hard as i could which was unfortunantly not hard enough. He was bigger than i and all i did was piss him off enough to get him to punch me in the gut BUT he forgot about the girl who took off and got the principal. When he noticed she was gone he took off too leaving me in the hall alone and with a sore stomach.

I didnt gain anything from that, but i wouldnt have been able to live with myself had i just walked by and i dont know what would have happened if i would have taken the extra minutes to run and get the principle. My stepping in and getting his attention off of her seemed the only way to garuntee she didnt get abused more. It worked and i got abused instead but i was proud of myself for it, it just seemed right.
 
Rojo, if you have a neighbor who boozes away his savings and then hits money trouble, are you gonna lend him a house payment?

If he's run his mouth for years at your efforts to prepare for various sorts of emergency situations, laughing at your ideas about self-defense, are you gonna jump out all eager to deal with HIS problems? Where he's spent years avoiding personal responsibilities?

Or, even if you decide you have some moral obligation on his behalf as a Good Samaritan, are you never, ever, gonna make some sharp comments about his personal character?

How eager are you to be helpful to those who work diligently at taking away your civil rights? Why would you be startled at sarcasm directed against such people? How are they less an enemy than anybody else who would initiate policies which lead to serfdom or enslavement?

Art
 
El Rojo said:
How? Can you site any real world cases where this occured?
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Yes - Yes I can.

My younger brother is as hard core an anti as an anti can be. There is no reasoning with him. He's very intelligent, a college graduate with a degree in Psychology (that's most of his problem IMO) and runs a sizable chunk of Florida's DHS system. He's capable of understanding the stats - he's seen 'em, he's verified the sources. Doesn't matter. To him guns represent all that is evil about mankind. Rid man of guns and we'd all live in a violence free society. Guns are an emotional issue with him. No amount of logic, science or facts will influence him.

In my 53 years on the planet I've met others like him. IMO guns being evil and we'd be better off with out them is a matter of faith for the die hard anti-gun zealot. They cannot be reasoned with - it's a waste of time.

If we are to respect the beliefs of others then it would be a slap in the face, totally disrespectful act bordering on the sacreligious to step in and save a rabid anti's life by using a gun.

They've made their choices - let them live (or die) with them.

If we step in to save them then we are no better than the nanny state that most of us claim to despise.
 
We are talking about saving someone's life Art. That is a pretty big difference from bailing them out of financial trouble. Again, why do you think these people don't understand self-defense and guns in general? I would argue its because they have never seen a need for it and they live a cushy life where they probably won't. However, if suddenly the need arises and they are facing extinction and you save them, you don't think that would be a life changing event. I think it just might be. Just based off of that alone, it would be worth the risk because if you succeed, you have a chance to change an anti's mind. Some of you would rather they die at the hands of criminals and guess what their liberal friends are going to do? Blame their death on the criminal's gun. That's right, if there were no guns in the world, that anti would still be alive. Think James Brady here. Someone who gives someone else a reason to fight. That rationalization is just as good as what you are proposing. To do something means you might face opposition. To not do anything means to possibly face opposition.

Still, the main argument against helping still seems to be that you don't help the enemy or they get what is coming to them. Sorry, these are American citizens, your neighbors, and in some cases it could be family. If I want to fight them, I will do so by donating money to the NRA and CRPA, by writing letters to the editor, and by speaking my mind. I won't fight them by watching them die when I had the ability to do something about it. Frankly, it is very disappointing to see this attitude so prevelant on this discussion board. Why don't you guys just go ahead and take it one step further. Watching an anti die and doing nothing about it in order to further our 2nd Amendment cause is not as efficient as just killing them right now. Why don't you just come out and say that anyone who is anti deserves to die and you are just the army to make it happen. Yeah, start shooting them now. LEts get the revolution started! :barf:

Do we wonder why we have such a bad reputation in society sometimes?

Werewolf. Ok, he is an anti, but that isn't what you were claiming was significant earlier. You claimed there is no changing him ever. I claimed that if he had a near death experience where someone saved him with a gun, it might cause him to re-evaluate his beliefs. So you tell us he is an anti, but there doesn't appear to be a close call where he was saved by a gun and then he choose to continue his beliefs just as before. So again, you still haven't addressed the issue.

I personally find it disturbing that a man would rather watch his brother die as a means of teaching him a lesson than save his brother and give him one more chance to change his mind in life. Again, is it any wonder why some anti's think we are psychopaths? To each their own I supose. I am just glad you aren't my brother or my neighbor.

If we are to respect the beliefs of others then it would be a slap in the face, totally disrespectful act bordering on the sacreligious to step in and save a rabid anti's life by using a gun.
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A complete cop-out bordering on absurd. Again, all of this hostility is just circling back around to what people really seem to be saying, "Anti's are the enemy and they should be exterminated."

Don't look at this as a means to issue out your own self-rightuous judgement, look at it as a means to change people's minds. Or don't and start shooting anti's on sight.
 
In many states, the CCW laws specifically allow the carrier to use his gun ONLY in defense of himself or his family, not of anyone else.

Sounds harsh, but here is a couple of scenarios:

You are a legally armed citizen. You are walking down the street when you see a house door open, and a woman comes out, screaming. Following her closely is a tough looking guy who runs her down, and throws her to the ground. You defend fair maiden by plugging the abuser. The woman, freed, naturally runs away, to get away from her awful experience with the brutal rapist.

Congratulations! You just shot and killed an FBI agent who was trying to arrest a woman who had murdered 20 people while a hospital nurse. And you let her get away to do it again. Feel proud of yourself? Think you will get a medal for heroism from the mayor? Nope. Maybe 20 years in Club Fed.

You are a legally armed citizen. You are in a restaurant when a holdup man points a gun at the cashier and demands money. You haul out your trusty piece and blow away - the cashier. Ooops! No medal from the mayor for that one, either; you may be lucky and get off with manslaughter, only to face a whopping civil suit from the cashier's family.

Sorry, but the folks who say you should limit defense to yourself or your immediate family/companions have a good point, even if the law doesn't set that limit.

Jim
 
Sorry, but the folks who say you should limit defense to yourself or your immediate family/companions have a good point, even if the law doesn't set that limit.
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Your examples are good examples of how everyone needs to take caution and thoroughly evaluate the situation. They are not good examples of why we shouldn't get involved. In the first example, a man jumps on a woman and you just pull out your gun and shoot him? Did you observe a weapon? If not, then you weren't really justified in shooting were you? A better idea would have been to yell at the guy or just go over and kick him in the teeth. Situation two, you in your own stupidity shot the cashier. What does that have to do with the broader subject? That is just a good example of why you should not be stupid and shoot the person with the name tag on and behind the register instead of the guy with nylons over his head and the gun. :banghead:

Yes discretion is the better part of valor, but we aren't really talking about that. We are talking about having a legal and tactically sound means of saving someone else who is about to be seriously injured or killed and not doing anything about it because of a hatred for anti's and a greater sense of self and revenge than helping out someone in need.
 
I once was attacked by my pschotic ex-wife. I left the relationship at that point. When the Mom in law asked why we were separated again after 4 months of marraige I told her about the attack and its fury. She commented that the last time my wife attacked them with a knife was at least ten years earlier and she thought her daughter was over that. :(

I mention the above because I am in a quandry over the original question. I agree with the pricipal of letting the anti's lie in the bed they made. I also disagree with the idea of not helping someone in need. My story above shows how the perceptions most of us have about men and women involved in violence can be misconstrued thus causing a tragic mistake.

In my case I have decided to do the best I can with the info I have. I intend to defend myself and my family agaist harm and to be a good witness if violence comes my way while not actually involved. In rare circumstance I can see using my weapons to defend third parties no matter their gun worldview as long as I was sure of the necessity of the action. I would err on the side of caution however as things are not often the way they seem.

I also believe that there is a level of extremist in the anti gun universe that does not understand reason and will fight the anti gun fight no matter what "life changing" events might take place. I have seen these people turn any information on its side to support their view. They do not need logic, fact or reason to justify their actions. Some might call it a mental illness. It hits many people in life not just anti gunners. Just look at your average GLOCK hater for example! :D
 
When I got my CCW permit, I too felt (at first) that the only way I would use it was in the self-defense of myself, my family, and those close to me.

As I became a member of THR and TFL, and eventually became a Senior Member here, I started to read all the threads of sticking up for your fellow man/woman and realized that not only should I and would I stand up for a fellow human being whose life and/or safety is in imminent danger, but that I already have when I was unarmed.

I also realize that my job, requiring me to work with the general public everyday, causes me to help those in need, is something I do not only because I am paid to do it, but because my heart is in it as well.

So yes, I would render aid to someone I didn't know, whether they be anti-gun or not, whether I need to draw my gun to stop the threat or not.

I call it being a good, God-driven human being, even if the antis call it "vigilantism".

If that situation arises and I step in, I'm not worried about the legal mess at that point. I've already realized that drawing my gun AUTOMATICALLY puts me into a legal ramble. I'm simply worried about saving a life.

-38SnubFan
 
Hi All-

Jim Keenan, you're precisely correct with your examples.

If one is walking around with his or her carefully concealed firearm...it should stay that way unless the CCW holder or his/her family is directly threatened. Trying to play police officer and intervening in a crime-in-progress (that one may stumble upon while out and about) is a sure way to get someone killed...especially while dressed in civvies as bystanders call 9-1-1 about a man with a "large gun" waving it at people.

"...Wouldn't anyone feel like a hero when they see a scruffy dirtbag holding a well-dressed gentleman at gunpoint in a alleyway and they shoot him...rescuing the innocent businessman? Nice shooting Quickdraw McGraw...that was an undercover police officer arresting a wealthy and sophisticated international drug dealer..."

The point is, you never truly know what's going down out in the streets. If you want to be a hero, shout at the top of your lungs that you're calling the police. The undercover FBI agent won't care and the drug dealer will still be arrested. Protect your own and be a good witness otherwise. If some wish to flame, that's fine.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
No flames, friend....

but isn't it a sad state of affairs that folks can sit here, on an internet forum called "The High Road", and expound on how they will use any rationale possible to avoid helping someone in need?

Yes, they might be an international drug dealer.

Yes, they might be undercover cops.

I'm willing to bet, though, that if you present your firearm and challenge them quite loudly that badges would be produced post-haste.

And, something else to think about....

What if the roles were reversed?

What if YOU were the one getting victimized?

What would you think of the people who stood by idly while someone was hurt?
 
In minnesota, we have a good samaritan law. If i render medical aid to someone in good faith, I can not be held liable for a bad outcome. As I have had somewhat more advanced first responder training, I am required to give lifesaving aid if the situation presents itself to me. IE if i see a heart attack I am required by law to render aid.

I wonder if by some chance this could be held against me in a similar way because I hold a CCW, IE I see a armed assault and do nothing, could i be held liable for not rendering aid in the Situation, I have been told by Counsel that I can not be held liable if I am forced to defend myself or someone close and they suffer a bad outcome. Just a thought to stir the pot.
 
If they admit they need help then they lose the debate. Some of them might truely believe that they would deny aid and die some fool martyr but most of them just don't have the balls to admit they are wrong. It's nonsense regardless.
 
Hi Powderman-

We certainly live in an unfortunate period of time that many conservative and honorable people like me don't find heartening. When witnessing an altercation, the emotional side says "intervene" but the rational side says, "protect those near and dear" and help others to the best of your ability within reason.
  • Pulling your gun will get the attention of uniformed police.
  • The police will draw down and you and kick your flawless firearm across the pavement
  • They will forcefully handcuff you and throw you into jail with criminal dirtbags
  • They will NOT shake hands with you and pat you on the back for a job well done
  • There will be significant publicity, especially if you shoot
  • You may lose your job
  • Relationships with family will be extremely strained during the legal proceedings
As far as badges being produced, they're a dime-a-dozen online and in the backs of magazines as they're just pieces of metal with nice designs. They're certainly insufficient for me to make a judgment between who is right and wrong. It would really be a kick in the head to later learn that you intervened in a scuffle between a prostitute and her pimp...and now you're making the front page of the newspaper for your troubles.

As far as ME if the roles were reversed? I've made peace with the fact that this is a cold world in which we reside. We live, love, laugh and have a grand time...but realize it's just you and your circle of friends and family in the end. If police arrived while I was taking a beating, I would consider it "gravy" and very fortunate, but I've taken the best steps possible to reduce the opportunities for that scenario to occur in the first place. Sorry if I sound like a pessimist (I'm not) but I'm absolutely a realist.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
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