Anti-hunting gun owners

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The black buck of India, there are more Black buck living in the state of Texas on TROPHY hunting ranches than there are in the also non-hunting country of India. WHY? Well I think you already know why.

This seems to ignore entirely the question of why animals are a valuable resource. In each of your arguments, hunters value them only as a tool for the continued propagation of hunting: that is part and parcel of the state of mind some here have objected to.

These black buck exist in Texas solely for sporting pleasure. What environmental, cultural/social or economic value is there to that existence apart from the trophy ranches' finances?
 
Oh...My...God... this is the thread I have been waiting for.

I've never hunted. Don't really want to hunt. If people like to hunt, fine, but in general I don't care much for hunting culture. I also don't see supporting hunting as instrumental in preserving 2A rights, as hunting is a sport, like (as I stated in a previous thread) skateboarding. I also don't care for skateboarding culture, but hell, if you want to skate, fine. I also loathe being treated as some form of inferior gun owner because I do not participate in hunting. Somehow, there's this opinion amongst some in the hunting crowd that I need to kill something to "prove" myself. Anyone ever browsed an AW with a Fudd beside you and hear this phrase, "that gun ain't good for hunting squat... 18inch barrel too short." I just replied, "Oh, if you think that's short, wait till you see it after it's SBSed to 14 inches". Ah the look on the poor Fudd's face. It looked something like this: :mad: Meanwhile, I made this face: :barf: as he browsed a 26 inch mossy oak pump-action. He just looked at me with his grin and said, "now this'll get you a deer". Whatever. Fudds.
 
Interesting things that you might not have thought about before:
-Someone who kills a dog or a horse -- especially for food -- is looked down upon, whereas someone who kills a bear or a deer (legally) has no such stigma attached to him. The difference is not that the first two are domesticated animals because eating cows carries no such taboo.

-The authority most people cite in allowing them to kill animals is because people are more intelligent or highly evolved. Why then, can't someone with a high genius-level IQ hunt someone with severe mental disabilities? Or, for that matter, if a highly advanced alien race suddenly appeared, would you be perfectly satisfied with them hunting us for sport? (I'm making the assumption that they would have all the food they needed).

Smellvin -- Interestingly enough. I have thought about those things before.

-I really couldn't care less if someone eats a dog or a horse. Just don't eat MY dog or horse. And eating them seems like a waste of a fine animal, and just plain old not my personal cup of tea.
-A person with a low IQ is still a person. A: Not tasty to me B: Worthy of drawing and quartering any SOB who thinks he can hunt his own race. Next.
-Any highly advanced alien race hunting us for sport would receive a highly advanced butt-kicking. We're neither deer nor sheep my friend, but if we ever stop raising a generation of hunters in the USA, we won't have to wait for an alien race to hunt us for sport, other members of our race will be hunting us for invasion.
 
I am excited and alive and free and in my element every time I grab a rifle and head for the distant horizon. Whether to hunt cape buffalo or cow elk to deny that feeling is to deny a basic human condition I am not a spectator in nature I am a participant just like that lion in Botswana.

H&HHunter -- Well said. You've been though more than most, but we all have to stop thinking we need to apologize for Man's nature.

Man's nature -- effective hunting through effective use of tools, culminating in weapons that allow us to live by our own means and defend our personal property -- which has given us the time and freedom to develop technology to even have such debates.

A truly hungry man with hungry children wouldn't have time for the lot of us. He'd be out poaching the wild geese on the local golf course, wishing he had a better shotgun.

We may have moved beyond that man, but he's still only a few paychecks or a few missed grocery truck deliverys away.
 
I've never hunted before since I never saw the point to it around here. My idea of fun doesn't involve sitting in a tree stand all day hoping a deer will walk by. But I also have always wanted to try a hunt out west for elk or some other large game. The one problem though, if I happened to see a magnificent specimen, I think I'd prefer it to remain alive and in the wild than mounted. I think the idea of the hunt appeals to me more than the actual taking of the animal.

Anyways, I have no issue with any sort of hunting.
 
I am pro gun all the way, but I do not hunt. I just buy my food. I get no satisfaction from the sport. I shoot at our land, and at the range. Even hunting rifles.. If I were in need of food, and broke, I would take a deer or something. Yea yea, deer need to be managed.. OK, quit breeding them for hunts. I am not anti-hunting. I am not going to support it if asked, nor petition it. Has nothing to do with being a gun owner and pro gun. I can own all the guns I want, that does not mean I have to shoot animals. I have shot several deer and some big cats when I was young, and just never felt good afterward. All deer were for grandparents and cats were for a buddys who stuffed and sold them. I like targets now. I will still hang out with hunters and will not try to talk them out of doing it, but I choose not to do so. However, I will blow an intruders face off and not think twice about it. That is the main purpose of my guns and I hope it never happens. Targets are good for everything else I use them for.

Speaking of this, was the first firearm developed to hunt amimals or kill men?
 
Hunt4life said:
We're all meat eaters here, right?
Nope. I've been a vegetarian for over a decade. :uhoh:

That said, I came into this thread not expecting any animosity towards hunters. At least not as much as some people saying they'd rather hunt hunters. Wow.

I don't eat meat, but support others right to do so, and totally respect people who put their own food on the table. If I ever get rich, leave the city, and buy a farm or something, I'd let people hunt on my land. Hell, I'd probably take care of the varmints myself if they were stealing my precious veggies. Not quite sure how anybody sees a problem with that. It's pretty much self defense if you think about it.
 
We're all meat eaters here, right?

I doubt it.

I also doubt I'd have ever picked up a gun if it were not for hunting. Hunters for the most part tend to strong supporters of RKBA and view firearms for the tools that they are. Pity our common enemy exploits our division so readily. For the purposes of defending the RKBA, I accept all the help I can find.

If you've never hunted, and seriously want to understand it, I'll help you find an appropriate teacher. If you prefer not to understand, that's fine too. Remember, when you choose to pontificate on subject where you are ignorant you sound as foolish as a Democratic senator claiming that a certain .50 caliber pistol can shoot down airliners.



David
 
Daughter: "Dad, how do I know who's a real friend?"
Me: "A friend is someone who cares how your life turns out."

"Truth is a dangerous thing: once found, you must never turn your back on it." -- Arfin

"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe." -- Arfin

Arfin -- I have noticed and admired your quotes. Especially the "real friend" definition. It's the clearest definition I have ever heard.

And "...Liberty is not certified safe" is gold.

Your post above rings very true with me. I assumed a lot and then discovered that the liberty supporting our easy life is rotting. The bedrock liberty of our children and grandchildren is decaying.

Specific to this topic, a human being should, at some point in their life, experience what it means to hunt, kill, butcher, cook and eat an animal. Meat is life to human beings.

If anyone thinks killing is "beneath" them, then you have little connection to 99% of the human beings who came before you. You are standing in the shoulders of meat-eating giants who did whatever they had to do to feed their kids. And also provide you with electricity and the Bill of Rights.

-ROTR-

P.S. If a person truly chooses to avoid eating flesh...then that person should experience turning a (wildlife-supporting) forest into crop land, harrowing the earth, planting seed, fertilizing, watering, harvesting, processing and preparing 'protein without a face' in a manner sustainably palatable to your progeny.

You are still using a large footprint of the earth's resources to support your vegetarian existance. So don't presume to judge efficient meat-eaters.

Vegans and vegetarians who don't judge -- I salute you. You are more wholesome, and probably thinner, than I. (but your kids will still somehow discover hot dogs:evil: ).
 
Nope. I've been a vegetarian for over a decade.

I have more respect for veg*ns than I do meat-eating anti-hunters. At least veg*ns try to live lives consistent with their ethics. The rest simply deny the truth of their actions.

For the rest...

We are meat eaters.
Killing for food and wildlife management is OK.
Hunting is highly regulated.
It's humane.
It's fun.
There's no moral high-ground at Ruth's Chris.
Read that one again.
Get the heck outta my head and into your butcher's for awhile.
Think.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
Face your food.
Face reality.
Embrace your BBQ.
Animals are food.
There is no guilt in an American hot-dog.
There is no guilt in deer tenderloin (Or synthesized growth hormones)
Independence Day ain't the same with tofu on the Weber.
Besides, its falls through the grill.
My baloney has a first name, it's B.A.M.B.I.
Let's go huntin, baby!
It'll cleanse yer soul :)
 
I'm not anti-hunting, grew up in a hunting family, but don't hunt now, as the supermarket is a heck of a lot easier, but comments like the following just crack me up...

Whether to hunt cape buffalo or cow elk to deny that feeling is to deny a basic human condition I am not a spectator in nature I am a participant just like that lion in Botswana.

I suppose if you participated in nature using nature and clubbed your kill, or had to actually snare it w/o technology, I could appreciate this. But grabbing a gun with a zillion dollar scope, and fancy ammo, and dropping some animal from a few hundred yards away that never stood a chance hardly seems like "participant". Sounds more like "I just like to kill stuff" to me...

Heck, if you even had to herd it off a cliff like the buffalo jumps, I could definitely see that as participating.

But when all is said and done, I"m not going to stand in your way of your version of "participating in nature"...
 
Here's a quick hunting question: if any of you are familiar with Wisconsin at all, is the deer hunting here pretty much limited to deer stands? That's all I seem to hear about and I've just assumed it's all like that. But I could see myself taking a deer if I was able to walk around the woods stalking an animal, but I fear sitting in a tree would bore me to death.
 
Some people here have expressed an active disrespect towards "trophy hunters" especially with regards to African safaris. It is my understanding that most modern safaris offer the opportunity to sample a variety of game fro dinner, even if you yourself did not take it. Presumably that game was taken by a different hunter on a different trip. It is also my understanding that barring whatever trophy is taken (and can be legally exported) the rest of the animal is considered to belong to the safari organization and is used to feed the safari crew, other hunters and very possibly the community.

Another consideration regarding African safaris is a geopolitical one. Many of these African nations derive a surprisingly large portion of their income from revenues generated by these safari activities. It is my understanding that poor, unstable nation states are a veritable breeding ground for terrorist organization recruitment efforts. If a modern trophy hunter provides enough wealth to a poor nation so that one of it's citizens is a little better off and rejects efforts to be recruited into such an organization, I say hurray for the hunter.

Lastly, I suspect that much of the current animosity toward what is called "trophy hunting" comes from the lessons that we have all learned about the real depredations and excesses wrought by the robber-barons of the 19th and early 20th centuries. This is probably a very important area for you hunters to act on. Start educating people that this is not condoned anymore. I wonder if it would be helpful to have a public service ad that starts of by showing some yahoo poacher doing everything wrong and ends with him getting arrested by the appropriate game warden officials stating that much of the game wardens' budgets come from the license fees of legitimate respectful hunters. Perhaps offering a scene of a hunter having an animal in his sights and not taking the shot - his hunting buddy could ask, "Why didn't you shoot?" and the reply could be, "Well, Bob, it looked like that animal was about 150 yards away and I've only been practicing at 100 yards. I didn't want to be disrespectful to the animal."

As I said before, I am not currently a hunter - I do not know if I have the willingness to take the game myself. However, this is a personal decision. I do not feel that any harm whatsoever is done by the hunters who are properly respectful of their game and make every effort to ensure a clean, quick kill. I hope that my thoughts might be helpful to those that do make efforts to preserve respectful hunting of game as a viable hobby activity for those that care to partake of it.
 
hunting ain't for mee

I personally don't like hunting because I just don't like killing things unless I have to. But I support others right to hunt if they so choose.

I'd have less of a problem shooting an intruder in my house than shooting a deer just minding its own business out in the forest. One wants to harm me, the other just wants to be left the hell alone, kind of like me.

:(
 
I'm not pro-hunting.

I'm not anti-hunting.

Deal with it.

If it goes bang, it's good.

IMHO, it's cheaper, overall, for me to buy my breakfast sausage at the nearest Diergberg's market.

Campers, things are NOT black and white. The folks who'd like to see the "gun culture" split over an issue like hunting would also like to see us go away. IMHO, if someone wants to go shoot Bambi's mama, that's fine with me, as long as I don't have to admire his/her cooking under duress... Unless, of course, they can actually do a decent BBQ...

I can party with Nugent. I can also party with the (very few and far between...) Vegan Shooter.

Deal with it.
 
mrcpu

I can appreciate what you say, as well as the context in which you believe you are saying it.

The man you address is not the droids you're looking for.

Think, instead, more along the lines of standing in the path of a charging cape buffalo with a double rifle -- that means exactly two rounds available -- with no scope and no protection beyond the rifle.

Either the shots count or the buffalo wins.

That's a real participant.

The kind of guy I was never brave enough to be.

The kind of guy I'd like to learn from.

I'm sure there is, out there somewhere, a fellow deserving of your contempt.

H&Hhunter would not be that man.
 
I suppose if you participated in nature using nature and clubbed your kill, or had to actually snare it w/o technology, I could appreciate this. But grabbing a gun with a zillion dollar scope, and fancy ammo, and dropping some animal from a few hundred yards away that never stood a chance hardly seems like "participant". Sounds more like "I just like to kill stuff" to me...

Couple things...

"It never had a chance" - It had lots of chances. And a WHOLE lot more than the Prime Rib Special at Joe's Denial Grill had ;)

Hunting can be made extremely "challenging" and some hunting is relatively easy. Some folks enjoy a challenging hunt, others just want some deer, elk, bear, turkey for the grill (I fall into both categories - After my grubstake is made I'm going make sure my season lasts as long as possible)

But when it comes to killing a food animal, making a challenging game out of it is not what makes it "right" or ethical. If it was, we'd have to put all the McDonalds drive-up speakers 30' up a greased poll.

From a pig in a poke to buck nekid chasin moose with a stick and string, it's all ethical, no matter if you call it "hunting" or "slaughterhouse butchering."

I kill stuff because I like to eat stuff. We like to hunt, we like the outdoors, we like being out there, observing, being part of the landscape and we like to shoot. And, we like to see the critter go down as the end of a successful hunt. It's a happy time. That crtitter's cycle is complete. That's not sad, that's the beauty of the natural world. We honor the animal, we pay homage to it, we celebrate its life, its death and the meals it will provide. That is something a cow never gets the benefit of.
 
anti-hunting gun owners

:confused:
now i dislike antis as much as the next man
but the thought of gun owners hunting them is simply ridiculous
 
I am like a lot of others here. I am not anti-hunting, but I do not hunt nor do I really care to.
I probably do many things you do not care to do. That's okay, kinda makes the world an interesting place don't your think? After all, what else would we argue, er I mean, talk about?
Just don't tell me how to live my life, and I will not tell you how to live yours. As long as you do not infringe on my pursuit of happiness, I will not rain on your parade. Please insert your own favorite platitude here.
 
At first I expected this to be a pretty lame thread. Have not read every posting, but I get the idea. I would be willing to guess that prior to the Zumbo affair, there would have been postings that would be very anti-hunting. Since that time, the posts have moderated somewhat. The negative posts on ebr's have also moderated. This suggests people becoming more tolerant.

You still get some fudd postings and I continue to find the term derogatory just like a person who shoots an ebr doesn't like to be called a killer. Being called or labeled a trophy hunter was a positive term suggesting that you are very good at the craft of hunting and simply don't hunt for meat. Meat hunter was a negative term. The term shooter (reference the movie "The Shootist") also was a negative as it suggested someone who kills people not a person who shoots holes in paper targets.

Several comments mention the cost of hunting being too high for what they perceive you "get for you money". There lies the true power of hunters, spending discretionary income on the sport they love. Until handgun ownership for self defense and the AR-15 platform developed a following, people who punch paper for pleasure exclusively with guns were in a huge minority. They were limited to people who enjoyed shooting their pistols, revolvers, wildcat cartridges, custom rifles, and those that wanted to find the most accurate combination of components for their 1911, Remington Model 700 or Winchester Model 70. This has changed somewhat with with two rifle platforms; the AR-15 and the Ruger 10/22 and the maturing of the 1911 platform. It also helps to have disposable income and this more than anything is driving things like the ebr's and serious target shooting. The shooting sports is also becoming more common with handguns too whether the gun was purchased for self defense, hunting, to collect, or target practice.

I'm strongly pro-hunting and strongly pro-2A. I don't care if a person is a trophy hunter, a meat hunter, or hunts simply for pleasure. Don't waste the meat on game animals and do let the varmint carcasses lie around smelling up the countryside. I like people who conduct their shooting activities safely.

An early comment "Never been hunting, but I go varmint shooting." That is hunting. :)
 
The pro-hunting arguments I've heard so far are:
1. I can.
This is the worst argument, so I'm not even going to spend any time on it.

2. I want to, and it's a part of the natural order.
You are not in danger of going without meat or protein. We have plenty of farm animals that we've specifically raised for this purpose.

What's more, our technology has greatly outpaced evolution. No quarry has a chance against a decent marksman; they don't understand how a little moving blob on a hill a quarter of a mile away could possibly be dangerous. I do hold a begrudging admiration of people who hunt using more primitive techniques (such as atlatls). At least then, the quarry had a chance.

Maybe some day we'll have the rough equivalent of condoms for hunting (e.g. you can get the full psychological effect without having the bad effect). I would have no problem with simulations that allow people to sublimate their primal urges.

3. The animals would starve and die a horrible death if the herds weren't culled.
By this reasoning, in areas of famine such as Ethiopia, the kind thing to do would be to drop in hunters and reduce the locals so that they can find death faster and more humanely.

Most of us agree that a government that says, "I know what's best for you, so let me manage you" is to be resisted. The most personal and important individual right is the right to life. I think that making major, life-changing decisions for another living being is, at the very least, a little selfish. As such, this precept should be upheld as much as is possible.

4.
HarryCalahan1 said:
Your reasoning is the ammunition the anti-gunners are using to make inroads to take our guns.
Hunting doesn't have anything to do with the Second Amendment. If they're arguing that, they fundamentally don't understand it... which I think is something we already know. :)

5. PETA crazies like animal rights... so anyone who thinks animals should be allotted certain rights are crazies, too.
This is the same ad hominem nonsense that anti's use against us along the lines of, "If you own a gun, you're obviously a fat, drunken redneck with undersized genitals who only wants to have the opportunity to shoot other people who break into your house." Based on what I've read and seen, PETA is a radical, crazy group of sad-sacks (that's about as high road as I can get with them -- sorry). They do not represent everyone who thinks killing something capable of suffering should be avoided.


The underlying goal of my posts were only to get people to consider how they would react if they were in situations where they were being stalked by an opponent against which they had almost no opportunity. There's a black line that most people draw between "people" and "animals" which I don't think is so well-defined and somewhat arbitrary. This mentality was used, in years past to justify xenophobia and racism; the idea that our certain in-group is inherently different and better than another, so it doesn't matter how we treat the other (outside) group who is just as capable of suffering as we are. I was trying to foster the idea that before doing something to another animal, we should consider how we would like to be on the receiving end. Empathy is good.

At the very least even if you still disagree, I hope some of you realized that being anti-hunting isn't necessarily illogical.
 
'There has never been a managed game animal hunted to extinction...'

Maybe, maybe not. Modern game management techniques really were not developed until the middle of the last century. But hunting controls were developed early on in the 1900s. And still we eliminated the passenger pigeon, caspian tiger and tasmaninan wolf and many others and certainly we will more.

How about hunting an animal to extinction in a particular area such a griz in most of the lower 48 and bear in MD? And then opening the hunting back up when it reaches an arbitrary number that is still too small in some ops to support a healthy population? But hunters pressure the state and find a friendly biologist to sign off on it... What do we do when we are down to the last few hundred of a species and then a disease wipes them out? Or hunting a wild animal to the point where it actually becomes domesticated to ensure survival such as buffalo? What about reducing the numbers to the point where we have to issue no tags because there is almost nothing left?

Don't get me wrong... I have my own land; I hunt on it. Occasionally I go with someone else to their land or lease and go hunt with them. I hunt everything from rabbit to elk and lots in between. But every year when I go somewhere there is more encroachment on habitat. More McMansions on the 2 acre plot with the SUV and BMW in the driveway, another Wallyworld, another gas station, another road. In the end hunters will not make most species extinct but man certainly will if we don't do something about it. After we cut down the last shady oak tree to put up the Shady Oaks subdivision there will be no more hunting....

I lived in Northern Virginia in the 80s and watched first hand at what uncontrolled growth of a man made habitat can do to the world. When people are chasing dollars today they care little about repercussions 10 years down the road.

Trophy hunters do some heavy lifting to preserve the enviornment. They should, they have resources to trade for other resources. Joe tax payer does a lot more when all things are considered but not neccesarily in the name of hunting. I do find trophy hunting childish. But then I find most games like basketball childish also.
 
Smelvin-

You are starting to irritate me. All of your posts equate wild animals to people in some way. Wild animals are not people they are just animals.
 
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