Any other liberals?

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"I still wrestle with this choice I've made."

I have to say that I just don't understand this ankst. I look at owning a gun like owning a car, I'm not hurting anybody by owning it, so I am not imosing on anybody or infringing anybody's rights.

As far as the car goes, I don't believe in global warming, so I really don't care about my carbon footprint. I'm not hurting anybody, so I expect to be left alone. I smile alot and like life. I guess I'm just one of those bitter guys who is clinging to guns and religion.
Mauserguy
 
Given what's going on in Iraq and Wall Street, I think there are many more important problems facing the US right now than whether I'm allowed to own an AR-15.

It's not about you. It's about all future generations of Americans. The National Firearms Act was put in place to battle prohibition-era gangsters. That issue solved itself with the end of prohibition, and Americans have been paying the price ever since.

Gun control laws do not go away (AWB notwithstanding). Wars come and go, economies rise and fall, rights are forever.
 
Regardless of who we vote for, we tend to be united in the idea that what's best for the individual should be left up to that individual, not anyone else and certainly not the government. This applies to everything from personal protection to retirement savings to health care. Nothing boils the blood quicker than a government official that seeks to regulate my activities, activities that do not harm another in any way, because they think they know what's best. History shows again and again that they do not.

can i get an AMEN
 
My father was an avid shooter and reloader and guns were a normal part of life growing up in Alaska. When I graduated from high school, I went straight into the Marine Corps. Firearms have always been a part of my life and will continue to be. As for political beliefs, I think of myself as more libertarian than anything else. So for me, there was no cognitive dissonance when it came to firearms and self defense.
 
Dirty, stinking liberal here. I support gay marriage, social programs, you name it, I support it.

Except gun control, which, in my opinion, runs completely contrary to the liberal beliefs. If we can't tell two people not to get married, why exactly can we tell them what tools they may or may not own? Would we deny them a fire extinguisher? If not, then why a firearm?

I do not and never will support any form of gun control. An armed society is a polite society. I won't say for sure that more guns = less crime...but I can definitely see a trend when I look at the graphs. A liberal I may be, but I still listen to logic.
 
....I plan to vote for Obama. I don't think his election will result in any gun bans except possibly a new assault weapon ban, which wouldn't trouble me much.

Every gun owner should be troubled by AWB 2. It's much more draconian than the first one, which even most liberals acknowledge as having had no impact on crime. Gun grabbers know that they can't shut down gun ownership in one fell swoop. It's all about incrementalism. It's about destroying your right to own firearms, one small step at a time. If AWB 2 ever gets signed into law, yes the Brady Bunch will be popping champaign corks that day, but the next day they'll be working on the next gun ban law. Remember Martin Niemoller. Because one day the Obama crowd will come for what you own.
 
For those who plan on voting for Obama....

Brrack Hussein Obama will ban every gun, magazine and accessory he has the votes for -- Spread the word.
The NRA produced this list for your study ---

FACT: Barack Obama opposes four of the five Supreme Court justices who affirmed an individual right to keep and bear arms. He voted against the confirmation of Alito and Roberts and he has stated he would not have appointed Thomas or Scalia.

FACT: Barack Obama voted for an Illinois State Senate bill to ban and confiscate “assault weapons,” but the bill was so poorly crafted, it would have also banned most semi-auto and single and double barrel shotguns commonly used by sportsmen.

FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry.

FACT: Barack Obama wants to re-impose the failed and discredited Clinton Gun Ban.

FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a complete ban on handgun ownership.

FACT: Barack Obama supports local gun bans in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other cities.

FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people who use firearms in self-defense.

FACT: Barack Obama supports gun owner licensing and gun registration.

FACT: Barack Obama refused to sign a friend-of-the-court Brief in support of individual Second Amendment rights in the Heller case.

FACT: Barack Obama opposes Right to Carry laws.

FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and “research.

FACT: Barack Obama supported a proposal to ban gun stores within 5 miles of a school or park, which would eliminate almost every gun store in America.

FACT: Barack Obama voted not to notify gun owners when the state of Illinois did records searches on them.

FACT: Barack Obama voted against a measure to lower the Firearms Owners Identification card age minimum from 21 to 18, a measure designed to assist young people in the military.

FACT: Barack Obama favors a ban on standard capacity magazines.

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory micro-stamping.

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory waiting periods.

FACT: Barack Obama supports repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits information on gun traces collected by the BATFE from being used in reckless lawsuits against firearm dealers and manufacturers.

FACT: Barack Obama supports one-gun-a-month handgun purchase restrictions.

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on inexpensive handguns.

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on the resale of police issued firearms, even if the money is going to police departments for replacement equipment.

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory firearm training requirements for all gun owners and a ban on gun ownership for persons under the age of 21.

Read the rest, including the footnotes and cross references, at NRA-ILA.
 
"Obama will ban every gun"

I heard an ad on the local country station this morning at 6:30. It said he won't take our guns and that he's a really nice man. Yesterday they ran an ad with a bunch of people testifying about why voting is good. I liked the kid who said he registered to vote because a tank of gas cost more than his mother made in a day. Note to kid: You're old enough to get a job and help out.

This is the same station that runs gun show ads, so I guess they'll take money from anybody.

Me? I'm a fiscal conservative first and think some social programs are beneficial. The one I work for helps people get back to work (and paying taxes.)

John
 
I'm generally conservative and don't even agree with a lot of them. I'm not much for "rubber stamping" anything, be it political or religious(although I believe in revealed truth in old and new testaments).

I've owned a rifle for decades but didn't get a hg until last month. I consider it a definite "upping the ante" kind of thing,for me. As far as OC or CC,I'm not ready for that. It seems like it'd be too easy to get charged with unjustifiable homicide ,even in this state, after using a pistol(in defense of my life)outside of the home environment. Going to a penitentiary (interesting misnomer) for X amount of time seems like a prelude to damnation to me.

It's refreshing to see that some liberals at least believe in taking part in their own protection. At least I can agree with them on something.
 
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I had to be able to stand up for myself.

I guess you're not a liberal any more. It's probably hard to identify with any prefabricated belief system in the face of reality, and "liberal" is just one example of such a system.

The problem with modern American liberalism is that it's infused with a psychological dynamic. This dynamic involves the side of us that wants to remain a child -- to be taken care of, to believe that mommy and daddy will keep us safe.

The problem is, this is based on a foundation of lies. These lies generally involve power. People want to believe in these lies, and those who want power are happy to feed them what they want to hear. Those who wish to control you are happy to promise safety if that's what you want -- but it's a lie. They'll promise anything, because they want to control you. They don't SAY they want to control you; they want to control the "gun industry" that sells what you may choose to buy. They want to impose the "fairness doctrine" so they can dictate what you hear. They want to force "business" to do certain things that limit your choices. They never want to control YOU, of course, just everything you can do. "They" can take many forms, but to borrow from Joseph Campbell, "they" is the devil of a thousand faces, and the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

I'm not much of a conservative, but there's no way I could identify with modern American liberalism, any more than any other cult that is based on this phenomenon (craving the safety of the womb, at all costs).

BTW that's why many critics of modern American liberalism use the phrase, "drink the kool-aid."

Best of luck with your wrestling. It will make you stronger, as it makes all of us stronger who engage in wrestling with ourselves.:)

(If you want a personal challenge, read Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism". He says that writing it turned him towards libertarian thinking, not the conservative perspective he started with.)
 
"Given what's going on in Iraq and Wall Street, I think there are many more important problems facing the US right now than whether I'm allowed to own an AR-15."

Agreed. I think that what Obama said about clinging to guns and religion is right on the money. Of course he can't say that! But he's right. In this time when people are losing their jobs, their houses, their retirement savings, their kids and grandkids' future financial stability, etc., potentially losing the right to have some guns seems like it should not be the main issue.

I understand the "opening up a can of worms" belief on the matter, and I agree it's tricky. But we're in a disasterous place right now and we need to make decisions on any number of policy matters that make positive impact now.

Josh

P.S. I hope Obama wins, but I'm not voting for anyone.
 
"Given what's going on in Iraq and Wall Street, I think there are many more important problems facing the US right now than whether I'm allowed to own an AR-15."

This begs the question: if "there are more important problems facing the US right now," they why is an AWB or other laws against "some guns" being pushed AT ALL?

Which leads to other questions, such as "why are some firearms being banned as so-called "assault weapons" when they shoot the same ammo, the same way, as non-banned firearms? And why would a legislator burn up time with this issue instead of those "more important issues?"
 
This begs the question: if "there are more important problems facing the US right now," they why is an AWB or other laws against "some guns" being pushed AT ALL?

People who want power will seize it when nobody's paying attention. Plain and simple.

In this time when people are losing their jobs, their houses, their retirement savings, their kids and grandkids' future financial stability, etc., potentially losing the right to have some guns seems like it should not be the main issue.

But the notion that Obama's left-wing ideology will somehow make for a better economy (or the Democrat's pipe dream energy "policy" better standards of living) than in the past is borderline insane.

Furthermore, it's the left side of the aisle that wants to make it much more difficult to ensure one's grandkids' financial stability...

I understand that people don't remember 1930, but I DO remember the 1970s and I DON'T want to relive them. Obama and the Democrats do. I'm afraid you're falling for the false promises of safety and security that I wrote about above. I don't want to pay for your naivete.

The Republicans have sucked. But their sucking does not in any way imply that the Democrats have the right ideas or policies.
 
In the few short days since this thread was started the American financial and political system has been turned upside down. One of the most right-wing administrations in history is providing taxpayer funds to save private enterprise. The party of "no more government expansion" has been, and continues to be, responsible for the largest expansion of government in history. On the other hand, we can't trust the other party not to push excessively social policies (including gun control) if they are elected. Do I trust any political party - Yeah, like I trust a rabid pit-bull. Unfortunately, the established political parties have made sure that there is almost no chance of an effective third party challenge.

I would estimate that our group consists of a fringe of ultra-right red-neck conservatives that hold their opinions based purely on dogma, and are proud of it. Almost zero ultra-left "liberals" with similar (lack of) thought processes. In between we have a spectrum of beliefs that are created by life experiences and relatively intelligently considered opinions, which, though the opinions held may be open to discussion, is the way it should be.

We all believe that in some way the ability to own a firearm may be important in our future whether that be for simple self-defense or to preserve ourselves from oppression. I think very few people actually have a clear idea of how they would use a firearm in the future but we all believe that we would rather be armed than the alternative because we know that, whatever crisis occurs, we will need to be self-reliant and being armed will be a massive plus in that direction. Therefore, we have a common interest in the right to bear arms.

Am I getting close?
 
....I plan to vote for Obama. I don't think his election will result in any gun bans except possibly a new assault weapon ban, which wouldn't trouble me much.

First they came for the Jews, and I said nothing because I was not a Jew.......
 
One of the most right-wing administrations in history

You've got some good stuff in the post, but that phrase shows that you, too, are subject to believing propaganda -- and dogma. It will not help you to understand someone's perspective when you let their political opposition demonize them and take what you hear at face value.

The reason we have "red-neck conservatives" here is that, in America, the "red-neck" perspective that you so rudely caricature tends to favor individual freedom in many areas including self-defense. Libertarians of various stripes have differences -- some of them huge -- with various types of conservatives, but a general principle of "leave individuals alone" is not one of them.

American liberals, OTOH, tend to believe that central planning by experts would yield a better society, and that individual impulses to acquire wealth, defend oneself with a gun, etc. must be subjugated to the state. It's hardly an accident that most college professors consider themselves to be such "experts" and to be "liberal" in the American sense. (European "liberals" are different animals.)

Now there are some situations where liberals favor individual choice, e.g. gay marriage. Many conservatives perceive this not as allowing individual freedom so much as forcing other people to accept gay marriage. When you look at it that way, conservatives are still responding from a "leave me alone" perspective. The problem is that the result DOES limit the freedom of homosexual couples. Libertarians run the gamut, but tend towards asking why the government should have any say about marriage at all.

Bottom line?

There are underlying reasons why conservatives and libertarians of various stripes are more common here. "Liberal" in America does not mean "libertarian" as it does in Europe, not by a long shot.

Anyway, I still recommend "Liberal Fascism", which examines the history of the central control model and how it has impacted American politics on the left AND the right (and also how these terms themselves can have limited value).
 
ibtl

Libertarian. I think there should be 2 laws.

1. Don't physically harm anyone else.
2. Do not take what isn't yours.

Punishment for breaking said laws should be decided by a judge/jury in a case by case basis.

There, I just wrote the whole criminal code for the jackdanson government.
 
First they came for fill in the blanks... right on! Good quote of that WW2 era Lutheran minister. You wait too long to complain and you may NEVER have the chance to fight for IT = FREEDOM in any ISSUE via the 'law' or another tea party. That includes ALL kinds of guns, open and conceal carry issues, etc.

My husband and I own various types of guns including one of those 'evil black guns' - Bushmaster. It is not my "thing" although I have shot rifle styles like that in the past.

When they start to claim and BAN anyone's favorite style of gun in a semi automatic pistol, a revolver, a shotgun, a rifle, a lever action rifle and/or a single action revolver (Gasp!) - maybe someone might think that is DOES matter and it is an important issue NO matter what party you belong to or how you feel in ALL issues of 'politics'. (See my other post here.)

It is about C ON T R O L - any type of gun control is about CONTROL. The other issues that matter very much in Constitution shredding and outright ignoring it is about CONTROL too. Either way, you, me and WE are screwed. The only thing that 'may' save us is our GUNS no matter what they LOOK like and whether we 'shoot and love' x, y or z firearm.

"America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
Claire Wolfe

http://www.lneilsmith.org/whyguns.html

Why Did it Have to be ... Guns?

by L. Neil Smith
[email protected]

Over the past 30 years, I've been paid to write almost two million words, every one of which, sooner or later, came back to the issue of guns and gun-ownership. Naturally, I've thought about the issue a lot, and it has always determined the way I vote.

People accuse me of being a single-issue writer, a single- issue thinker, and a single- issue voter, but it isn't true. What I've chosen, in a world where there's never enough time and energy, is to focus on the one political issue which most clearly and unmistakably demonstrates what any politician -- or political philosophy -- is made of, right down to the creamy liquid center.

Make no mistake: all politicians -- even those ostensibly on the side of guns and gun ownership -- hate the issue and anyone, like me, who insists on bringing it up. They hate it because it's an X-ray machine. It's a Vulcan mind-meld. It's the ultimate test to which any politician -- or political philosophy -- can be put.

If a politician isn't perfectly comfortable with the idea of his average constituent, any man, woman, or responsible child, walking into a hardware store and paying cash -- for any rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- without producing ID or signing one scrap of paper, he isn't your friend no matter what he tells you.

If he isn't genuinely enthusiastic about his average constituent stuffing that weapon into a purse or pocket or tucking it under a coat and walking home without asking anybody's permission, he's a four-flusher, no matter what he claims.

What his attitude -- toward your ownership and use of weapons -- conveys is his real attitude about you. And if he doesn't trust you, then why in the name of John Moses Browning should you trust him?

If he doesn't want you to have the means of defending your life, do you want him in a position to control it?

If he makes excuses about obeying a law he's sworn to uphold and defend -- the highest law of the land, the Bill of Rights -- do you want to entrust him with anything?

If he ignores you, sneers at you, complains about you, or defames you, if he calls you names only he thinks are evil -- like "Constitutionalist" -- when you insist that he account for himself, hasn't he betrayed his oath, isn't he unfit to hold office, and doesn't he really belong in jail?

Sure, these are all leading questions. They're the questions that led me to the issue of guns and gun ownership as the clearest and most unmistakable demonstration of what any given politician -- or political philosophy -- is really made of.

He may lecture you about the dangerous weirdos out there who shouldn't have a gun -- but what does that have to do with you? Why in the name of John Moses Browning should you be made to suffer for the misdeeds of others? Didn't you lay aside the infantile notion of group punishment when you left public school -- or the military? Isn't it an essentially European notion, anyway -- Prussian, maybe -- and certainly not what America was supposed to be all about?

And if there are dangerous weirdos out there, does it make sense to deprive you of the means of protecting yourself from them? Forget about those other people, those dangerous weirdos, this is about you, and it has been, all along.

Try it yourself: if a politician won't trust you, why should you trust him? If he's a man -- and you're not -- what does his lack of trust tell you about his real attitude toward women? If "he" happens to be a woman, what makes her so perverse that she's eager to render her fellow women helpless on the mean and seedy streets her policies helped create? Should you believe her when she says she wants to help you by imposing some infantile group health care program on you at the point of the kind of gun she doesn't want you to have?

On the other hand -- or the other party -- should you believe anything politicians say who claim they stand for freedom, but drag their feet and make excuses about repealing limits on your right to own and carry weapons? What does this tell you about their real motives for ignoring voters and ramming through one infantile group trade agreement after another with other countries?

Makes voting simpler, doesn't it? You don't have to study every issue -- health care, international trade -- all you have to do is use this X-ray machine, this Vulcan mind-meld, to get beyond their empty words and find out how politicians really feel. About you. And that, of course, is why they hate it.

And that's why I'm accused of being a single-issue writer, thinker, and voter.

But it isn't true, is it?

Permission to redistribute this article is herewith granted by the author -- provided that it is reproduced unedited, in its entirety, and appropriate credit given.

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Catherine
 
jackdanson-

I'd add one more principle: truth and full disclosure when selling.

E.g.., you should be able to buy subprime paper, but if the seller tells you it's AAA, the seller is liable. Ditto for, say, trans fats. If I want to buy food that's full of 'em, that's my right, and a seller should be allowed to sell it to me -- so long as he/she accurately represents what I'm buying.
 
ArmedBear,
Thank you for the thoughts.

As I said in my post we are shaped by life experience. We are trapped by our definition of terms such as red-neck and liberal.

My definition of red-neck comes from the loudly self-proclaimed Christian who I had the misfortune to meet once. He seriously advocated that all illegitimate children who could not be supported by their family should be allowed to die. A child without sin, without crime, without blame, pays the price for the stupidity of his mother. Very forgiving.

On the other hand, some of the most genuine people I have ever met, who others may call red-necks, have been some of the greatest people. How about a "red-neck" rancher who keeps a deer reserve protected on his land so that the "old folks and disabled" could hunt without too much exertion. He must have been eighty years old himself and walked with a limp from an old injury but he ran his ranch personally with a level of energy that made me feel ashamed.

As you point out, it is very difficult to find a common meaning to terms both internationally and between ourselves.
 
Good and bad in all people, all professions, socio-economic groups, nationalities, sexes, ages and in all religions or lack thereof = All of us as GUN PEOPLE.

Catherine
 
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