Anyone having trouble with FC brass?

[mugsie]

I was loading some .308's the other day. I do one of two things, either purchase cases through the internet, or, if I find some at the range, pick 'em up and reload them too. Anyway, I'm sizing some cases, so I grabbed a handful of FC, and thought I'd size them up too.

Sized some R&P, PPM, Winchester and FC. No problems - everything went fine, checked all with a case gauge amd for setback using my Stony Point gauge and they were all identical. Loaded them up with 44.5g of Varget under a 168g Nosler HPBT and a WLR primer. All were trimmed using a Possum Hollow trimmer. Took them to the range and everything went fine till I got to the FC. Fired ok, but had to take a block of wood and whack the bolt in order to get it to extract. It lifted fine, just wouldn't pull out. I checked the primer and no signs of pressure at all, so I tried another one - same problem. OK - somethings different. Fired the other brass and took the rest of the FC home.

Got home, pulled the bullets and weighed the charges - all exactly at 44.5. Measured the wall thickness and found it to be between .001 to .0015 larger than the other brass. OK - thicker walls, less capacity, same powder = more pressure. I reduced the load to 43.5 of Varget and loaded up a few. Took them to the range and same problem - would not extract.

I even tried nexk sizing some of them but the problem persists. I'm thinking the brass expands but doesn't contract. Maybe they need anealing? I have no other ideas other than scrap the FC cases and don't worry about it. Everything else shot like a champ - just the FC cases were giving me problems.

What has been your experience using FC brass? I use if for .223 with zero problems. I'm strongly leaning towards the cases were work hardened and consequently didn't contract, although I'm open to any suggestions you might have.

Thanks all......

 

[ljnowell]

No experience at all with FC 308, but i have found that my FC stamped cases in 45acp, 357mag, and 38 all fail way sooner than others. I tend to get neck tension problems with them and case mouth splits(way sooner than normal).

 

[243winxb]

Case gage does not measure the diameter. Put a mic on the web. Is it larger than max. spec ? . L.E. Wilson Gage. >

This is a one-piece non-adjustable, cylinder type gage for checking fired and resized cartridge cases for cone-to-head and over-all length.These gages are not made with chambering reamers but with special reamers giving extra clearance both in front of and behind the shoulder so as to elimi-nate any possibility of contact except at the gaging point.

Instructions > http://www.lewilson.com/images/CASE_GAGE.pdf

 

[suzukisam]

I always have problems with FC brass having loose primer pockets.. sometimes even after the first firing with factory ammo... I usually put FC off to the side and don't use it unless I need to

 

[kingmt]

If you decide to scrap them let me know.

 

[Cypress]

I'm not positive but I don't think work hardening would do that. Over annealing would I think. Possibly some brass that has been through a fire or dried in the oven too hot or annealed incorrectly allowing the body of the case to swell and not spring back. Check the measurements of the cases in several places and check against the once that extracted OK.

 

[snuffy]

Only problem I have with federal brass is hitting the scrap bucket when I run across one while sorting range pick ups. I don't need brass so bad that I need to use that apcray.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't think the FC cases are work hardened but I do think it's the cases you have that are the problem and not all FC cases. I use a lot of FC 30-06 brass with zero problems. It's possible there is some damage to the bottom of the case where the extractor contacts the brass. Possible that brass was used in a semi-auto and somehow damaged.

 

[243winxb]

Brass of Unknown History, can be a Problem.

Where the brass came from is more likely the problem.

either purchase cases through the internet, or, if I find some at the range, pick 'em up and reload them too.

FC brass has not given me a problem in 223 or other calibers.

 

[USSR]

What has been your experience using FC brass?

Federal .308 brass is heavy with a reduced case capacity (as you belatedly found out). Treat them the same as milsurp 7.62x51 brass, which means I would load no more than 42.5gr of Varget in them with a 168gr bullet.

Don

 

[JDGray]

I get great results loading Fed GMM empties. 10 loads easy, on the brass, without the pockets getting loose. I'm not pushing the envelope either, 43gr Varget shooting 168gr SMKs @2640fps. Been looking for a reason to get some Lapua brass, but this Fed stuff hasn't given me a reason yet

 

[medalguy]

I won't reload Federal any more. Loose primers and soft brass seem to be the norm.

 

[243winxb]

I'm thinking the brass expands but doesn't contract.

This is true of the web area, as most FL dies do not touch it on sizing. An over pressure load will expand the web & sometimes the primer pockets.

 

[918v]

FC brass is softer than other brands. This can be good or bad.

 

[1SOW]

918 +1: for pistol anyway. "ATK" are all softer than WIN, R&P or PPU

 

[243winxb]

Brass is Brass, it has a standard. Forming/production may change it?? I would guess the problem is more internal volume of the brass. Thick case wall thickness, producing more pressure than thin walls.

modulus of elasticity- Cartridge Brass-
Material is 70 copper/30 zinc with trace amounts of lead & iron , called C26000. Material starts to yield at 15,000 PSI when soft (annealed), and 63,000 PSI when hard.
Material yields, but continues to get stronger up to 47,000 PSI when soft, and 76,000 PSI
when work hardened. Modulus of Elasticity is 16,000,000 PSI. This means to pull a 1.000 inch long strip to 1.001 inch long induces a 16,000 PSI stress.
So if you pull a 1.000 inch strip to 1.005 inch long, you get about 76,000 PSI, which is the max obtainable.

 

[USSR]

FC brass is softer than other brands. This can be good or bad.

Brass is Brass, it has a standard. Forming/production may change it??

Yes, FC rifle brass is soft. I suspect this has something to do with the number of draws Federal uses to produce the case. Brass work hardens, so creating each case with a lesser number of draws than other manufacturers, would produce a softer case. Nothing particularly wrong with this EXCEPT for the reduction in size of the web area (as noted in the excellent comparative photo above), which usually leads to loose primer pockets.

Don

 

[918v]

I think we should employ jcwit to test the durability of FC brass. He'll prolly get at least 50 firings out of one, neck sizing only.

 

[wombat13]

Funny, I like the "loose" primer pockets on FC brass. I'm loading .300WM using Winchester and FC brass. Some of the Win I bought new. Some of the Win and all of the FC is from once-fired (by me) factory ammo.

All of the Win brass have primer pockets that are too shallow (as compared to spec) and I have difficulty pressing the primers in all the way. The FC primer pockets allow the primers to seat fully. I had to buy a primer pocket reamer for the Win brass.

 

[ants]

Cartridge brass is a specific alloy, and has certain characteristics as pointed out by 243winXB and others.

Like all alloys, that cartridge brass has an acceptable RANGE OF VALUES for each property (properties like hardness, ductility, elasticity,etc.) rather than one specific value for each property.

Not all cartridge manufacturers make cartridge brass with identical properties, but all their properties are within the range for cartridge brass.

So Federal Cartridge brass has hardness within the acceptable range, but perhaps toward the softer end of that range.
FC brass has ductility within the acceptable range, but perhaps toward the higher end of that range.
FC brass has elasticity within the acceptable range, but perhaps toward one end of the range.

I find that many manufacturers are fairly consistent with their cartridge brass, but their properties may vary over the years. Or may vary from product to product, for instance brass from Federal American Eagle may differ from Federal Gold Metal Match. Pistol differs from rifle. Etc.

Same is true for dimensions like web thickness. Web thickness probably makes a bigger impact on brass performance than wall thickness, but you'll never convince most reloaders of that. Wall thickness is all they can measure (at the neck only) so that's all they will ever know.

.....


For most of us reloaders, we simply figure out that brass varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, or headstamp to headstamp, and we learn to account for those differences (as USSR Don mentioned) or we restrict ourselves to certain manufacturers only (like those who discard FC).

As the man working the bench, it's your choice of how you do it.

.

 

[mrbro]

I have a recent small lot of 30-06 FC brass that, while very uniform in weight and dimensions, had 8 grains less capacity than other brands and even older lots of FC. That is enough to cause real problems at higher pressure loadings.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

A fellow gave me 80 pieces of Federal Premium Gold Medal brass a couple of weeks ago at the range and I seriously considered throwing it in the scrap bin when I got home (didn't want to offend). However, being the brass junkie I am, I just couldn't bring myself to do it without at least confirming that most of this brass was going to have oversized primer pockets. In the past I have had more problems with loose primer pockets with FC brass than any other I have tried. Must say that I was pleasantly surprised to find that all 80 pieces had tight pockets and can be reloaded at least once. Anyhow, it will help make up for the 20 brand new Winchester cases that I destroyed the same day (talk about excessive pressure):banghead:

 

[918v]

Medium loads extend the life of your firearm exponentially.

 

[Steve C]

had to take a block of wood and whack the bolt in order to get it to extract.

There is a reason why manuals say you should work up your load again any time components are changed.

243winxb explanation of different case volume is the likely explanation and your loads where over pressure.

 

[zeke]

Averaged weight of 5 pieces of 308 brass after trimming to 2.005. Average velocity of 5 handloads using 45.0 gns 748, CCI 34 primer and Win 147 fmjbt @ 2.790 col. From DSA carbine, effective rifled barrel lenth of 14 inches, rest is permanent muzzle break.

Win=157.5 gns, 2502.5 fps
Hirt=162 gns, 2536.8 fps
Rem=166.3 gns, 2538.5 fps
Fed Match=175.8 gns, 2566.2 fps
LC 71=181.1 gns, 2576.5 fps

I save the Fed match brass for one specific bolt action, as the rim does not stand up as well as the others in the DSA's action. Use fewer grains of powder with the Fed case for same velocity as Win case in hunting loads.