AR chambering for hunting 4-legged mammals in NW USA

[helotaxi]

The 6.8 and 6.5 are good calibers but the 300 is a better choice in an AR because it fits the rifle better

I disagree. The 6.8 fits the rifle very nicely without compromising the bolt. A different bolt and mags aren't THAT big of a deal and they're worth it to actually get some utility out of the rifle from a hunting perspective. Load to the capability of the SPC II chamber with a 95gn TSX and you've got a pretty potent combo for deer out to 300yds. 6.8 parts are very common at this point and aren't all that expensive as a result.

The 6.5 is a different story and I don't consider it useful for much other than punching paper at long range.

There are some pretty neat wildcats out there based on the 6.8 cartridge as well, from .20cal up to 6.5mm.

 

[68wj]

Thank you for the correction about rim sizes. The problem still remains that opening up the bolt face weakens it.

Please refer me to an AR bolt in any AR cartridge that failed prematurely due to design. Defects happen, but I am unaware of any 6.8 bolts breaking, one gun with a 6.5 bolt that was determined to be an out-of-square receiver. If the bolt tail breaks at the cam pin, this area is identical between cartridge.

The problem with the 7.62x39 is that it works best in AK mags and it's difficult to adapt an AR lower to their use.

Not a 7.62 in an AR fan here, but 7.62 AR mags work, especially for the use that the OP is asking for. Personally, if you want to use 7.62 in AK mags, get an AK.

The 6.8 and 6.5 are good calibers and the 300 is a choice in an AR option too

Fixed

 

[Tex4426]

If you want 1 upper to do it all then go with the 450 bushmaster or 458 socom..7.62 would be ok for deer as well as 6.8 and 6.5, low on power for elk...the 50 is not practical in my opinion, herd a lot of ppl have trouble getting ammo for it. I kno you can get a 458 socom from RRA for under 750 shipped to your door.. and i believe a 450 bushmaster even cheaper...as far as the 458 u can get bullets from 300-600 grains...suggest 300 for dear and elk, and 500 for hogs...ur looking at 40-60 dollars a box of 20 so not your everyday play gun...with the 458 and a decent scope (assuming your a decent shot) you can kill a dear at 250-300 yards no problem..elk i wouldnt push it over 250..check ballistics...o and the 458 fitts in standard 223 clips...obviously doesnt hold as many...3-458s to 10-223

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

other than the proven .308, all the other calibers might do the job, but where you gonna find the ammo? I doubt too many stores in the NW are gonna have 300 blackout or 458 Socom on their shelves. .308, yes. use common sense instead of fad rounds that aint gonna be around when you need them, unless you beleive everything you read.

 

[35 Whelen]

If you want 1 upper to do it all then go with the 450 bushmaster or 458 socom..7.62 would be ok for deer as well as 6.8 and 6.5, low on power for elk...the 50 is not practical in my opinion, herd a lot of ppl have trouble getting ammo for it. I kno you can get a 458 socom from RRA for under 750 shipped to your door.. and i believe a 450 bushmaster even cheaper...as far as the 458 u can get bullets from 300-600 grains...suggest 300 for dear and elk, and 500 for hogs...ur looking at 40-60 dollars a box of 20 so not your everyday play gun...with the 458 and a decent scope (assuming your a decent shot) you can kill a dear at 250-300 yards no problem..elk i wouldnt push it over 250..check ballistics...o and the 458 fitts in standard 223 clips...obviously doesnt hold as many...3-458s to 10-223

You might want to double check the ballistics of .45 caliber cartridges you mention. From what I've read, they approximate the ballisitics of the old 45-70 trap door....hardly a 300 yards hunting cartridge.

35W

 

[wch]

6.5 Grendel-(uses a 7.62x39 bolt) and AR-15 lower; you can easily change back to 5.56 if you wish by switching to another complete upper.

 

[CraigC]

500gr .458 bullets on hogs is a huge waste of money and recoil.

 

[Tirod]

Don't attempt to hunt elk with an AR15 unless it's .45 or larger, and expect to shoot them under 100 yards.

Again, it's all about ballistics.

Attempting to make it match gun capable is saddling it with two diverse and opposite characteristics. It's either a hunting rifle OR a match gun. Trying to make it do both means it can't do either very well. Compromise guns always suffer.

In this case you'd likely choose an excellent long range cartridge with sufficient barrel length to propel it to it's best velocity - which would be ok on medium game when good hunting ammo can be found. It would also be a longer rifle with about $200 more in the barrel than needed. Game can be shot with a 2MOA milspec barrel out to 500m, it's still a ten inch group, about half the size of the lethal zone. Target guns run as low as a 2.5" group at that distance.

You'd also have the expensive adjustable stock, lead weights, and the totally wrong scope on it to swap out for hunting. That drives costs up reequipping it to be 2-4 pounds lighter - true target guns are built heavy.

Hunting guns are built weight conscious, you carry them up and down hills walking to undisturbed game where you can use their habits against them.

Not being as good as the Larue family, I don't use a small match cartridge for elk, or even pretend that one gun can rule them all. Just settle on a good AR15 in an appropriate legal intermediate cartridge. A match rifle knocking down elk is too much to ask for a new shooter.

 

[Tex4426]

idk about you but i want maximum knockdown power on a hog...with a .458 500 grain bullet it will be dead before the bullet exits

for additional info military special forces divisions designed the 458 to fit strait onto an ar15 platform annd use the same 223 mags..they shoot 500 grain bullets because of the ability to be sub sonic..with this size bullet u prolly be maxed out at about 150 yards..who needs a hog gun to shoot farther..with a good tipped 300 grain bullet with max charge will allow you to kill deer as far as 300 yrds...you have to know bullet drop compensation to be able to shoot that far because it drops alot after 250...its all personal preference..you wanted 1 gun to do it...personally i would go with 3 guns...gives me an excuse to my lady to by more guns...if u got the money use an ar 10 platform for elk...you can get by with the ar 15 for hogs and deer.


The 45-70 was used out to 1000 yards on buffalo by sharp shooters...

ballistic sighted in 1.5 inches high at 100 yards with 300 grain tipped 458 bullet

25 yds: -0.4"
50 yds: +1.0"
75 yds: +1.7"
100 yds: +1.5"
150 yds: -1.8"
200 yds: -9.7"


as far as recoil it does not kick that bad...depending on bullet weight the recoil is compared to a .308 - 12 gauge

 

[Dustin0]

I like the 6.5 Grendal for the 4 legged type hunting.

 

[Tex4426]

i do know the 458 packs 10% more energy than a 45-70...the 45-70 wa used to kill buffalo...so as far as killing the 458 will have little problem...as far as shooting 300 yards with it..it is possible but i dont recommend to..the bullet drops like 20 inches at 250 yards with a 300 grain JHP..but in the right hand it will kill a deer out to 300 yards...the 458 is similar in ballistic to my 50 cal muzzeloader..300 grain bullet (max charge of buck horn high performance powder) out of a tradition vortek...i have shot this gun with a good group out to 300 yards...but have not had the opportunity to test that range on a deer...doubt i would take the shot if i did

 

[Tex4426]

http://www.military.com/entertainment/outdoor-guide/ar-hunting/rifle-review-458-socom.html


check into this article ...should give u an idea if this is in the vicinity of what your looking for

 

[CraigC]

I'm not saying the .458SOCOM is not capable. I'm just saying you don't need a 500gr bullet to do it. A good 300-350gr bullet will cleanly take deer, hogs and elk with no problem.

...i do know the 458 packs 10% more energy than a 45-70...

Maybe if you're looking at standard pressure data.

 

[Mike1234567]

If I was going to be anywhere near brown bears with an AR-15 then my choice would be .458 SOCOM. I know that's not on your list... sorry.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Byond:

I would not take any of the calibers that you mentioned elk hunting except for a 7.62x51.

However, as has been pointed out, that requires a different lower.

If you were to drop the elk from the equation, then I would take either 5.56x45 or 6.8 SPC. I have killed both deer and hogs with the 5.56 and 3 hogs with the 6.8 SPC.

 

[Welding Rod]

.458 socom.

 

[MistWolf]

Please refer me to an AR bolt in any AR cartridge that failed prematurely due to design. Defects happen, but I am unaware of any 6.8 bolts breaking, one gun with a 6.5 bolt that was determined to be an out-of-square receiver. If the bolt tail breaks at the cam pin, this area is identical between cartridge.

Not a 7.62 in an AR fan here, but 7.62 AR mags work, especially for the use that the OP is asking for. Personally, if you want to use 7.62 in AK mags, get an AK.

Fixed

Be that as it may. Opening up an AR bolt to take the rim size pushes it to it's dimensional limits. Taking that plus the fact the 6.5 and 6.8 need proprietary mags to function properly and neither caliber has any practical advantage over the 300 for hunting make the 300 a better choice in an AR. The 300 is good for deer out to roughly 300 yards, roughly the same as a 30-30. The 300 isn't as powerful as the 30-30, but it could be thought of as a 30-30 Lite.

Change to a rifle that fits the 6.5 and/or the 6.8 and they may be a better choice than the 300. But in general, folks are finding it easier to get an AR to run reliably in the 300 than the 6.5 or 6.8 and doing so with the 7.62x39 is even more problematic. One company has even gone so far as to design a lower and magazine with a wider body specifically for the 6.8 (it could have be they designed it for the 6.5, but if I recall right, it's the 6.8).

As far as where to get the 300 BLK in the Pacific Northwest, I know for a fact it's on the shelf at Surplus Ammo & Arms in Lakewood, WA. The 300 is penetrating the market and ammo is becoming more & more available.

I don't say stay away from the other calibers, just that the 300 BLK is a better choice for the AR. Less tinkering, good performance on deer and hogs, ammo availability is getting better each day and the Freedom Group is giving it their full support

 

[helotaxi]

The .300 is at a distinct disadvantage over the 6.8. Period. I have both. I would not hunt with the .300. I would not hesitate to hunt with the 6.8. Using published velocities from Hornady with their factory ammo, the 6.8 has a 150fps velocity advantage with a heavier bullet that is actually designed for big game and just barely goes below the 1000FPE threshold at 300yds while the .300 just barely carries that to 100yds. Move to some of hte hotter factory ammo on the market like the SSA SPC II loads and that difference becomes even more pronounced.

The .300 is a neat cartridge, but it isn't the best hunting cartridge in the AR-15 by a long shot, and despite what you seem to want to believe, the 6.8 works very well from the AR-15 platform and parts for it are very common at this point.

 

[35 Whelen]

In these discussions, I'm really surprised to see that the 300 BLK/AAC mentioned ad nauseum, when it's essentially nothing more than the ballistic twin to the 7.62x39, and NO ONE mentions the .30 Remington AR which is far more powerful than the 300 BLK, treading close on the heels of the 300 Savage. Realistically, it gains 300-400 fps over either of the aforementioned rounds, and would likely suffice as a short range elk cartridge.

35W

 

[helotaxi]

Has anyone actually seen a .30 RAR rifle or ammo? It sounds great on paper and the reviews have all been positive, but other than gunwriters I don't know of anyone that has ever seen the gun or ammo.

 

[68wj]

But in general, folks are finding it easier to get an AR to run reliably in the 300 than the 6.5 or 6.8 and doing so with the 7.62x39 is even more problematic.

Unfortunately, it is misleading, generalized statements such as this that cause these discussions to be hijacked. The 6.5 and 6.8 have been around for a bit now and have no more troubles that the 5.56 that has been around in AR's much longer. And don't get all tingly in the legs for Freedom Group. Maybe they got it right this time and will actually follow through on their newest creation, but they have also left a trail of hype and run (the 6.8 is doing well in spite of Remington and the .30 RAR had great potential too). My apologies OP, I will leave this one alone now. Good luck with your selection.

 

[Stack]

Give it to em wj, LOL I'm with ya!

 

[Tirod]

While the .30 RAR has good ballistic figures, it goes right back to having a proprietary carrier and bolt based off the AR10 - not 15.

The .300 BO is simply the Newest! on the market, and to Remington's credit, their spokespersons don't inflate what it does like the fanboys. A 200gr .30 with 15gr of powder only goes 1500 fps, a 95gr 6.8 with 28gr of powder will run up to 2,700 or more.

Big heavy bullet in a teeny weeny case isn't going to magically create high numbers. The biggest challenge any shooter can face is matching a cartridge to the job without emotional bias or attachment. It's not about a favorite, it's about what does the job in that situation.

Which one carries 1000 foot pounds out the furthest? The real issue in hunting is lethality, not what's the latest greatest. Nobody wants to lose game, or impose limits on what they need to do. Save that for bowhunting or blackpowder.

 

[rsilvers]

Where I see the blackout falling short is that it pushes a 110 grain bullet to 2400 fps according to factory ammunition data where as the 7.62x39 does the same with a 124 grain.

I wish I had a nickel for each time someone compared a 16 inch 300 BLK velocity to a 20-24 inch other cartridge velocity.

http://www.hornady.com/store/7.62X39-123-gr-ZMAX-Steel-Case/

7.62x39mm - Hornady - probably the single best load available - is 123 grain at 2360 from a 20 inch barrel.

Once you adjust the barrel length, and factor in the BC of the bullet, the 300 BLK will pass it at around 100 yards and by 300 yards have about 16% more energy.

 

[rsilvers]

300 BLK has lower cost practice ammo:

$11.06 per box.

http://www.richiespng.com/product.php?item=136515