If you aren't running them hard, you're babying them. If an AR needs to be babied, why bother with it?
AR on the inexpensive (not on the cheap)
- Thread starter k0sh
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What's your budget? What's the intended use of the gun? Are you looking to plink and have fun or will it be used for something more serious than that? If the latter is the case then I would advise you to steer clear of RRA, Stag, DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, and Doublestar. There are a few others as well. These guns have a reputation for being substandard and you're really not going to find any of the top trainers/instructors in the industry who would recommend one for any kind of serious use.
I highly suggest you look at a Colt or BCM (Bravo Company), you will not go wrong if you choose either of those. The same can be said for Daniel Defense and LMT.
Spikes and S&W sit in between these two groups in both quality and price. They are both acceptable options but the best options really aren't that much more. If a Colt 6920 can be had for a mere ~$100 more, you'd be crazy not to get the Colt.
I highly suggest you look at a Colt or BCM (Bravo Company), you will not go wrong if you choose either of those. The same can be said for Daniel Defense and LMT.
Spikes and S&W sit in between these two groups in both quality and price. They are both acceptable options but the best options really aren't that much more. If a Colt 6920 can be had for a mere ~$100 more, you'd be crazy not to get the Colt.
mljdeckard
Member
A couple of years ago, the prevailing opinion seemed to be to build the lower and buy the upper for the most economic solution. But prices have dropped enough now that that value is debatable. I usually encourage guys to build when they don't necessarily want to save money so much as not have to buy the whole rifle at once. It's easier to embezzle a few $20s at a time from the missus than to choke up $1k all at once.
You don't need any specialized tools to build a lower. Unless you consider vise grips with some tape on the jaws a specialized tool.
You don't need any specialized tools to build a lower. Unless you consider vise grips with some tape on the jaws a specialized tool.
All modern AR15s are good. They will all mix and match. Stag, DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, and Doublestar are great rifles. Any being made will last a life time. Innovations like CNC machine centers has improved manufacturing reliability of the hand adjusted machinery.
http://centerfiresystems.com/ar-ia-car-gb.aspx
Completely assembled AR 15 Only $624.00 + shipping and your FFL transfer fee
http://centerfiresystems.com/ar-ia-car-gb.aspx
Completely assembled AR 15 Only $624.00 + shipping and your FFL transfer fee
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Good tools are absolutely not necessary, and the torque spec is there to prevent damage. You don't torque to the spec, you stop and fix the problem if it gets too high. It's NOT like tightening a lug nut.
If you are an experienced home auto repair owner, assembling an AR15 isn't rocket science, it's easy and less trouble than rebuilding a one barrel carburetor. Read the assembly stickies on arfcom and you will see the one time assembly of a single AR15 doesn't need a company armorer's kit that will disassemble and repair large crew served machine guns - also part of the job.
The current situation is that assembled guns are as cheap as the parts - since the Brand name builders buy in volume, they get lowers and uppers for less than $50 each. The overall savings buying in bulk is more than enough to cover assembly. CMMG Bargain Bin guns for $599 are a good example, compared to my cost of $950. And I only paid $75 for the lower, $48 for the upper, both stripped, and used an A1 stock and rifle handguard. I obviously didn't buy a discount $80 barrel, and all the hotrod BCM parts that really have no place on a hunting firearm.
Bargains can be had at a gunshow, but shopping online can beat it down quickly. Few would purchase a front sight base at a show for $120 when you can order one online for less than $30. Checking build forums for the bargains of the month can and will save money - if you check almost daily and have an idea of exactly how that part fits into the build philosophy.
Most getting into the AR build process miss the entire point: it's to make something you can't get otherwise, like a Colt 6920 in 6.8SPC. Specify exactly what you want it to do - target and range - then choose the caliber and barrel length that support the job. From there, add the upper needed, the furniture, and last, the trigger. Don't be surprised that when you are buying parts, the easiest thing to do is get a subkit that has all the little bits, and that the price ON THE DOORSTEP, shipping and discounts included, is what you really need to consider. I've bought most of my small parts as kits from Brownells because I get a significant military discount. My FSB now needs parts, too, almost done.
You don't want to be caught out ordering a firing pin retainer or sling swivel rivet - the front door cost shipped is nearly $10 for small single items. Shipping has already cost me over $45 on this build, which would pay for most of the linear compensator I chose. And that's the real issue of why building isn't cheap - upgrades from milspec are expensive, and often not in keeping with what the gun will really do. Since I built mine for hunting, I stuck with a GI charging handle and left off all the ambidextrous doodads.
Accessories get pricey, too, clamp on a set of BUIS, you pay over $85 for Magpul plastic, or $150 for iron. On the other hand, you can build with a GI FSB, and cut down a M4 carry handle for the rear, which used, only run $30-35. And milspec, too, and do the job.
Don't get caught up in a testosterone fueled exercise in marketing hype, and the basic decisions are made in a calm atmosphere - does the part actually contribute toward the job - Yes or No, not well maybe it will help in a 5% situation. Far too many build for the small chance what if situations and the result is something that's not the optimum combination for the 85% of the time they need the best. Hence all the pics of carbines with 3x9 variable scopes and bipods. Apparently some do shoot cockroaches in a maternity ward.
If what you want isn't really available, build, but be careful, and don't be surprised costs begin to add up. Otherwise, just buy and shoot it. It can be changed if needed, albeit not cheaply, as used parts never sell for a new price.
If you are an experienced home auto repair owner, assembling an AR15 isn't rocket science, it's easy and less trouble than rebuilding a one barrel carburetor. Read the assembly stickies on arfcom and you will see the one time assembly of a single AR15 doesn't need a company armorer's kit that will disassemble and repair large crew served machine guns - also part of the job.
The current situation is that assembled guns are as cheap as the parts - since the Brand name builders buy in volume, they get lowers and uppers for less than $50 each. The overall savings buying in bulk is more than enough to cover assembly. CMMG Bargain Bin guns for $599 are a good example, compared to my cost of $950. And I only paid $75 for the lower, $48 for the upper, both stripped, and used an A1 stock and rifle handguard. I obviously didn't buy a discount $80 barrel, and all the hotrod BCM parts that really have no place on a hunting firearm.
Bargains can be had at a gunshow, but shopping online can beat it down quickly. Few would purchase a front sight base at a show for $120 when you can order one online for less than $30. Checking build forums for the bargains of the month can and will save money - if you check almost daily and have an idea of exactly how that part fits into the build philosophy.
Most getting into the AR build process miss the entire point: it's to make something you can't get otherwise, like a Colt 6920 in 6.8SPC. Specify exactly what you want it to do - target and range - then choose the caliber and barrel length that support the job. From there, add the upper needed, the furniture, and last, the trigger. Don't be surprised that when you are buying parts, the easiest thing to do is get a subkit that has all the little bits, and that the price ON THE DOORSTEP, shipping and discounts included, is what you really need to consider. I've bought most of my small parts as kits from Brownells because I get a significant military discount. My FSB now needs parts, too, almost done.
You don't want to be caught out ordering a firing pin retainer or sling swivel rivet - the front door cost shipped is nearly $10 for small single items. Shipping has already cost me over $45 on this build, which would pay for most of the linear compensator I chose. And that's the real issue of why building isn't cheap - upgrades from milspec are expensive, and often not in keeping with what the gun will really do. Since I built mine for hunting, I stuck with a GI charging handle and left off all the ambidextrous doodads.
Accessories get pricey, too, clamp on a set of BUIS, you pay over $85 for Magpul plastic, or $150 for iron. On the other hand, you can build with a GI FSB, and cut down a M4 carry handle for the rear, which used, only run $30-35. And milspec, too, and do the job.
Don't get caught up in a testosterone fueled exercise in marketing hype, and the basic decisions are made in a calm atmosphere - does the part actually contribute toward the job - Yes or No, not well maybe it will help in a 5% situation. Far too many build for the small chance what if situations and the result is something that's not the optimum combination for the 85% of the time they need the best. Hence all the pics of carbines with 3x9 variable scopes and bipods. Apparently some do shoot cockroaches in a maternity ward.
If what you want isn't really available, build, but be careful, and don't be surprised costs begin to add up. Otherwise, just buy and shoot it. It can be changed if needed, albeit not cheaply, as used parts never sell for a new price.
Well, mine is hand fit and torqued to spec. It prints inside 2 mils with factory ammo. DPMS lower with hand fitted internals. Yankee Hill furniture, with YHM folding front sight gas block. Ace ARFC stock. Burris AR 332 CQB prism sight. I built it exactly the way I wanted it, and I think I did a good job. It's performance has been flawless.
Even a novice mechanic knows the value of good tools.
Even a novice mechanic knows the value of good tools.
I've built two from Del-ton kits. No problems and I don't "baby" them. They put the upper together, head space and test fire it, so the newbie doesn't need any special tools for that. Doesn't take much more than a pin punch to assemble a lower. I've compared the parts side by side with DPMS and others and danged if I can tell any difference.... parts come from the same place, near as I can tell.
atblis
Member
I came up with this
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/1560.php
+
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/1633.php
+
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/2096.php
Stripped Lower $65 shipped (use coupon code for this)
+
Rest of parts for lower $99 shipped
+
Complete Upper $429 shipped
= $593
+$25 transfer = $618 out the door
Bang for the buck used to be Spikes. It looks like Palmetto has taken their place.
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/1560.php
+
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/1633.php
+
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/2096.php
Stripped Lower $65 shipped (use coupon code for this)
+
Rest of parts for lower $99 shipped
+
Complete Upper $429 shipped
= $593
+$25 transfer = $618 out the door
Bang for the buck used to be Spikes. It looks like Palmetto has taken their place.
sarduy
Member
I built a very nice carbine last month for under $600 using mostly Palmetto State Armory parts. I also used PSA LPK and other PSA parts when i built my 3gun competition rifle. I've put several hundred rounds thru both with no issues.
ESS solutions has AR M4 barrels for $73. http://www.esssolution.com/pricing I've used one. It was to spec and was accurate as my S&W M&P15.
The Aimsurplus deal listed above is a great deal. I dont need a lower, but at that price i might order one.
ESS solutions has AR M4 barrels for $73. http://www.esssolution.com/pricing I've used one. It was to spec and was accurate as my S&W M&P15.
The Aimsurplus deal listed above is a great deal. I dont need a lower, but at that price i might order one.
merlinfire
Member
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2010
- Messages
- 793
I picked up a new bushmaster m4a1 from my LGS with fixed a1 sights for 650. a buddy of mine bought a flat-topped version bush for $720. it can be done
Lakedaemonian
Member
On the inexpensive... I've contemplated going with a Smith & Wesson MP15 Sport. It is NOT cheaply built. The upper does not have a dust cover or forward assist, but it does have a shell deflector. Fit and finish between the upper and lower is nice and all internals are of proper milspec quality and code. The bolt is MP tested and the gas key is properly peened. The barrel is 1/8 twist stamped 5.56, but it is not chrome lined. We have them on the shelves at our gun-store for like $600 I believe. If your looking for a great AR on the "inexpensive" I'd look into it, unless you plan on vacationing in Afganistan, you wont need the dust cover.
Z-Michigan
Member
Usually the term is "staking" for the gas key, as in staking the gas key screws. Someone used to metalworking might call it peening, but the standard AR term is staking. On a related note, a quality bolt is shot-peened, but few companies advertise that and it's not something you can tell by looking.
No but it's nitride treated, which is better in some ways and almost as good in others. I wouldn't hesitate about the barrel.
I agree, especially if you can get one for under $650 or so.
Zerodefect
member
The Colt 6920 is a good cheap start with all the right parts.
I also like BCM, LMT, Rainier, and Noveske. You can order whatever lower you want from your LGS, then order a BCM upper online as well.
I also like BCM, LMT, Rainier, and Noveske. You can order whatever lower you want from your LGS, then order a BCM upper online as well.
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Dees wrote
Buy the Colt if you want brand name recognition and resale value, but from a feature perspective, there is simply no NEED to limit yourself to Colt anymore. There are now many good manufacturers that are churning out equally good quality and greater variety of options to suit specific needs. You mentioned LMT, Daniel Defense and Bravo Company are good to go mil-spec options, but not including Spikes in that group is a mistake. The only parts/manufacturing deviation between Spikes and Colt is the Spikes Tungsten filled buffer, and some prefer it to the traditional offerings anyway. The S&W series is a great gun, but it is not in the same category as Spikes. Having said that, I would love to have an M&P, Smith is legendary for their customer service and those are very nice firearms.
Buy the Colt if you want brand name recognition and resale value, but from a feature perspective, there is simply no NEED to limit yourself to Colt anymore. There are now many good manufacturers that are churning out equally good quality and greater variety of options to suit specific needs. You mentioned LMT, Daniel Defense and Bravo Company are good to go mil-spec options, but not including Spikes in that group is a mistake. The only parts/manufacturing deviation between Spikes and Colt is the Spikes Tungsten filled buffer, and some prefer it to the traditional offerings anyway. The S&W series is a great gun, but it is not in the same category as Spikes. Having said that, I would love to have an M&P, Smith is legendary for their customer service and those are very nice firearms.
imac98374
Member
S&W M&P15 Sport
Check it out! I bought one as a secondary to shoot the nasty ammo i couldn't bring myself to put through my "good AR." I've been impressed so far. Fit and finish are good, accuracy is good, function has been excellent. It's eaten ~400 rounds of wolf so far without complaining. It's a good, simple rifle. Plus it carries a lifetime warranty. Hard to go wrong IMHO.
Check it out! I bought one as a secondary to shoot the nasty ammo i couldn't bring myself to put through my "good AR." I've been impressed so far. Fit and finish are good, accuracy is good, function has been excellent. It's eaten ~400 rounds of wolf so far without complaining. It's a good, simple rifle. Plus it carries a lifetime warranty. Hard to go wrong IMHO.
I purchased a Palmetto stripped lower and lower build kit (Magpul furniture) from their store in Columbia, SC, and I am VERY pleased with the quality. Much nicer than what comes from Stag, RRA, S&W, or Bushmaster in my opinion. The trigger and overall fit & finish especially.
The rumor is that the supplier for the lower parts is the same that supplies parts to the local FN factory (which produces M16s, M249s, and M240s for the military under contract). That's just a rumor, though, and I can not verify.
I elected to order a complete Spikes upper half rather than build one from Palmetto parts, but from what I've seen in the store, the upper parts looked pretty nice too (M16 full-auto BCGs with properly staked bolt key screws, available parts with MPI testing, etc.)
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I suggest using the time waiting to save up/stock up on ammo so you can hop right to it when it comes in.
This is a helpful thread. I have been lusting over a BCM midlength that I'd eventually add Magpul MOE handguards to, but now that I see that Spikes are also manufactured to Mil-Spec standards (except there are no midlength Mil-Specs, strictly speaking), I see that I may not need to wait for BCM to start taking orders again.
After all, to me a good rifle is a good rifle. I don't care what's stamped on it as long as it runs like a well-tuned eight cylinder on a straight stretch.
After all, to me a good rifle is a good rifle. I don't care what's stamped on it as long as it runs like a well-tuned eight cylinder on a straight stretch.
Z-Michigan
Member
I have a Spike's midlength upper and am quite happy with it. No harm in giving that a try! They are currently shipping with MOE handguards so that will save you a minor upgrade cost as well.
Strongly agree, but for those us without mass spectrometers, the name is often the main indication of how it will run!
Strongly agree, but for those us without mass spectrometers, the name is often the main indication of how it will run!
For those of use with the technical education, the name tells us who's doing the actual work, and that means more.
I bought my lower from AGP - the turbo tuner kit makers who manufacture parts for installation in cars. When you can CNC precision parts that withstand 1,500 degree temps with 200,000 rpms, you get things right the first time. There's really only a dozen or so actual machiners of the hundreds of rollmarks - it not unlike walking into the Phillips 66 plant in KC circa the '70's and seeing five brands of oil coming off the 10-40 fill line to be sorted out. Lower makers just run the SN's and roll marks consecutively.
When you dig into it, one makers $85 stripped lower comes from the same shop as another's $130 lower. It's said the machiner can load a separate program to do each separately, but when the $130 product is done, why would the $85 guys want or need to pay for a completely separate developed program when the CNC shop already has a good one? That separate program often amounts to the rollmark change and start number.
I tried to avoid buying a FA upper, it was going to cost up to $300 (in that case a sidecharger.) I gave it up when LAR Grizzly offered blem stripped uppers for $60 shipped. LAR was founded to make uppers decades ago when the government needed another maker to offer just them for repair parts. Again - when you know who to buy from, you can save.
If you actually plan to shoot the thing and drag it into the woods, blems are a great way to go. Who's going to see one scratch on the gun freshly assembled, or three years down the road after weeks of offroad use? Many of us prefer the savings, not a safe queen. The difference is enough to buy a Primary Arms red dot, if you want, or 80-100 rounds of premium ammo.
I bought my lower from AGP - the turbo tuner kit makers who manufacture parts for installation in cars. When you can CNC precision parts that withstand 1,500 degree temps with 200,000 rpms, you get things right the first time. There's really only a dozen or so actual machiners of the hundreds of rollmarks - it not unlike walking into the Phillips 66 plant in KC circa the '70's and seeing five brands of oil coming off the 10-40 fill line to be sorted out. Lower makers just run the SN's and roll marks consecutively.
When you dig into it, one makers $85 stripped lower comes from the same shop as another's $130 lower. It's said the machiner can load a separate program to do each separately, but when the $130 product is done, why would the $85 guys want or need to pay for a completely separate developed program when the CNC shop already has a good one? That separate program often amounts to the rollmark change and start number.
I tried to avoid buying a FA upper, it was going to cost up to $300 (in that case a sidecharger.) I gave it up when LAR Grizzly offered blem stripped uppers for $60 shipped. LAR was founded to make uppers decades ago when the government needed another maker to offer just them for repair parts. Again - when you know who to buy from, you can save.
If you actually plan to shoot the thing and drag it into the woods, blems are a great way to go. Who's going to see one scratch on the gun freshly assembled, or three years down the road after weeks of offroad use? Many of us prefer the savings, not a safe queen. The difference is enough to buy a Primary Arms red dot, if you want, or 80-100 rounds of premium ammo.
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