AR with no lube or cleaning ability = not so hot shtf

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Hmm. Since every piston AR on the market is different, with no interchangeability between manufacturers, I wouldn't subscribe to this notion at all. Just get a Colt 6920, LMT Defender 2000, or a Noveske N4 and call it a day.
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The OP stated that he was lost in the woods for as much as a month without lube or cleaning kit. Interchangeability does not help for the OP's situation. If he wants DI then get a KAC SR-15 or SR-25 and have it NP3'd.
 
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Agreed with the majority, AR is a solid reliable rifle, lubed and properly maintained it will always serve you well. Dry she will do just fine. As others have stated, it MIGHT hiccup or jam if you shoot alot of rounds thru it, the average fighting marine or soilder in a COMBAT ZONE carries about 210 rounds, 7 mags, thats a lot of shooting but not enough shooting to jam up a rifle, and a lot of weight to be lugging around. Thats 1 mag in the rifle and 6 shoved somewhere in your pants pockets (assuming you don't have some kinda pack or web gear holding them since that gear would most likely have your cleaning kit and basics too in there) so all that weight is probably what is weighing and pulling your pants down to make you fall in the mud.

If you are in a situation where there are 200 enemies/animals/zombies or whatever coming at you you are already screwing the pooch! If you are falling in the mud and don't have the practical mindset to save your weapon and to keep it as the highest priority on your survival list within reason of course, you may already be lacking in the discipline and patience to survive for weeks alone anyways. Personally if I was lost in the woods, with only an AR, even if I only had one mag, half empty or not, I guarantee you I would clean that thing and maintain it every nite, rub it down with me tshirt, or dry it out and blow the dirt out or whatever. In your scenario, survival is more about discipline and patience than your gear.

Besides a good ole but stroke or strapping on that bayonet will always work in a pinch!
 
Besides a good ole but stroke or strapping on that bayonet will always work in a pinch!
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That's a good argument for the old SMLE ... but not the M-16 / AR-15.

antiques_s.gif
 
I have doubts about the AR-15 for self defense situations or the battlefield, if it has to be babied all the time so it doesn't turn into a jam-o-matic, that give me serious doubts and worries in high stress situations, in real world situations(less than ideal situations) where dirt does get into the gun. The most important consideration with guns for the battlefield to me would be will it shoot when I pull the trigger? I would seriously consider a side by side 12 gauge shotgun with buck shot over an AR-15 for self defense in dirty environments.
 
I have doubts about the AR-15 for self defense situations or the battlefield, if it has to be babied all the time so it doesn't turn into a jam-o-matic, that give me serious doubts and worries in high stress situations, in real world situations(less than ideal situations) where dirt does get into the gun.
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I suggest you search here and elsewhere and actually read what returning warfighters say, when they come back from the sandbox. Not what they supposedly said, or what somebody's father said they said, or what the chain letter reportedly written by a warfighter said - you need to read what actual real live folk who've Been There and Done That (and can prove it) have to offer.

I know of more than a handful of these folk, and universally NONE of them complained about the M16/M4 platform being unreliable. Some of those folk have posted that very same thing here.

Y'all just have to stop repeating this silly nonsense. It might have been true in 1967, but it's simply not the case today. And sadly, the chorus of the chairborne warrior or the well-intentioned newbie is drowning out the words of those in a position to speak with authority on the issue.
 
shepard19 - I have doubts about the AR-15 for self defense situations or the battlefield, if it has to be babied all the time so it doesn't turn into a jam-o-matic, that give me serious doubts and worries in high stress situations, in real world situations(less than ideal situations) where dirt does get into the gun. The most important consideration with guns for the battlefield to me would be will it shoot when I pull the trigger? I would seriously consider a side by side 12 gauge shotgun with buck shot over an AR-15 for self defense in dirty environments.

Maybe the origianl m16 jammed but were quickly replaced. Modern day M4 and AR 15 platforms are very robust and do not "need" to be babied all the time, standard maintance is a must for any responsible firearm owner, regardless of situation or place. If you discount the thousands of troops that used that rifle in multiple wars and combat zones throught the DECADEs including "dirty enviroments" like SAND (maybe you haven't seen the news the past 8 years? And yes I have been there and have had 100% faith in my rifle). Before you make an statement like that at go enlist, serve your time, do your duty with real actual experience, then make a comparison. I guarantee you that if you had a "side by side 12 gauge" (2 shots?) in a "high stress situation" (deployment) you would really be regretting your choice of firearm. No guesses on my part, just real world observations.
 
The answer to the OP is dead simple. You can choose the AR with its direct impingement system which is second best to a gas piston system in reliability but who cares because you will unfailingly have the tools and time necessary to preen it. Even if you don't have those tools or the time, a good AR should manage to grind along okay for all the use you'll be giving it anyway right?

This is failed logic. You won't need the best because the second best ought to let you get by. If people want to opt for second best in reliability because it’s good enough then that’s their business. If you rightfully think that stinks, you can opt for the age old gas piston design which is undoubtedly the best of the two when it comes to reliability.

The current generation of assault rifles aren’t adhering to gas pistons just to add extra weight.

XM8
FN 2000
IMI Tavor
HK416
FN SCAR

(and for that matter neither are basically the entire history of assault rifles from inception which includes such diversity as the Austrian Steyr Aug to the Taiwanese T86). The AK and other gas piston designs haven’t plucked an aura of reliability out of thin air and neither did DI build up controversy out of nowhere.

You can rest assured that when the US army inevitably does ditch direct impingement they sure aren’t going to be opting for second best saying that it’s ‘good enough for what we need it to do’. SOCOM sure didn’t have ‘the second best is good enough’ attitude when they chose the HK416 and neither should you if you want the best in reliability.

Very simple, you could settle for second best because it ‘should do just fine’ as seen in numerous comments or just do what any rational person would and get a decent gas piston design rifle if reliability is your #1 desire.
 
Your argument that the DI system is second best is flawed. Both systems work, both work well, both have advantages and disadvantages.

The current AR Piston conversion system manufacturers are relying on the misplaced fears of people who heard about their dads best friends cousins son who had problems with his gun back in Vietnam. Or the storied of gun store commandos buying second rare gear and having problems.

Funny that the people who use these weapons aren't screaming that they suck and jam up. They actually seem pretty happy with the M4s and their "second best" DI system.

There is no need to "preen" a DI gun. You give it a basic cleaning every thousand rounds or so and you should be fine. And by cleaining I don't mean strip it down to basic component. I mean drop the bolt, wipe it off, give it a quick once over and go back to shooting.
 
Your argument that the DI system is second best is flawed. Both systems work, both work well, both have advantages and disadvantages.
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It isn't flawed. What is flawed however is your comment that fails to acknowledge I was talking second best in regards to reliability. Each system does have pros and cons and reliability is undeniably the trophy held by the gas piston.

The current AR Piston conversion system manufacturers are relying on the misplaced fears of people who heard about their dads best friends cousins son who had problems with his gun back in Vietnam. Or the storied of gun store commandos buying second rare gear and having problems.
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Totally disagree. Regardless of whether or not you have or haven't had issues with the second place reliability position held by DI has nothing to do with it falling behind the piston design in regards to reliability. I don't really care if people don't have any issues with it and that it 'does what it needs to do'. The fact remains that the piston design is inherently more reliable and assault rifle manufacture past and present, with the glaring exception of the m16 (which will inevitably be replaced with GP anyway), will continue to be dominated by piston designs.

funny that the people who use these weapons aren't screaming that they suck and jam up. They actually seem pretty happy with the M4s and their "second best" DI system.
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being happy with a system that is reliable enough is fine. Recognising the fact that it is not the winner when it comes to reliability is more than fine - it is being objective and rational.

There is no need to "preen" a DI gun. You give it a basic cleaning every thousand rounds or so and you should be fine. And by cleaining I don't mean strip it down to basic component. I mean drop the bolt, wipe it off, give it a quick once over and go back to shooting.
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That's why I said "Even if you don't have those tools or the time, a good AR should manage to grind along okay for all the use you'll be giving it anyway right?" The AR15/m16 may be adequate in terms of reliability but is sure isn't the best. If I was looking for the best in reliability I wouldn't opt for second place with the justification that 'it does the job'. Small arms designers havn't since the 40s, the army won't when it ditches DI, SOCOM didn't when the adopted the HK416.
 
Funny you keep saying second best. second best, second best, yet I haven't seen you offer one bit of actual data to back up your argument.
 
I've put thousands of rounds downrange by now and have not had any real problems with my Bushmaster AR other than a couple FTFs using crappy ammo. Yes, I keep it cleaned and lubed, but I do that for all my guns. I'd trust my life with this gun any time.
 
In my opinion a cave man could look at both systems and determine that gunk pushed in here or kept out there would clearly indicates which system is inherently more reliable.
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Such a conclusion would not be supported by actual empirical data, however. At one point, it was postulated that even a cave man could look at the world and see that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. Simply holding an opinion as fact, however broadly it may be held, doesn't make it true....

There have been many thoughtful discussions here as to be benefits and liabilities of piston-upper ARs, and the consensus seems to be that retrofitting a piston upper onto the AR platform causes more issues than it solves. Designing a rifle from the start as a piston-drive action may prove more satisfying in some ways, and less satisfying in others.

But that's all a thread drift that is unfair to the OP. The OP postulated that the AR platform was unsuitable for use in austere conditions, and that opinion has been demonstrated as patently false by the very people who use them as the tools of their trade.
 
Darn....I must be a second rate citizen. I own a dozen or do DI AR systems. I also hate cleaning guns.

Yet, I have not had a failure on any of them that wasnt directly due to the ammo.

I know, I must have just gotten lucky. Im sure all mine are just waiting for that day that they can explode like a hand grenade.

Sheesh. If anyone can tell me why spending double to triple the price on an upper to "Maybe" give me an edge in reliability.... again, no one can assure me of that... is a good thing... Im all ears.

Have not heard a good argument yet.
 
Any caveman could see that the simpler DI system with fewer moving parts would be more reliable. ;-)
 
One other thing never mentioned by the gas-piston crowd.

I can get AR parts if I ever needed them, at the next gun show, and some corner gas stations in small towns.

Try finding parts for any of the many different piston-gun designs when the SHTF, or the next crime control bill passes and it breaks.

rc
 
Any caveman could see that the simpler DI system with fewer moving parts would be more reliable. ;-)
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Heh yeah, tell that to the Israelis - upcoming Tavor, Norway Turkey & US SOCOM - HK416, Austrians - Steyr Aug, Swiss - SIG SG 550, Singapore - SAR-21, Britain SA80, Chinese QBZ-95, Indonesian Pindad SS2, Brazilian IMBEL MD2, Mexican - FX-05, Taiwanese - SAR-21, Italians - Berretta AR-90, Korean - Daewoo K2, Belgians - FN F2000. The oldest of these assault rifles is the 1978 Steyr Aug introduced 17 years after the m16. Not to mention the XM8 and FN SCAR.

Seems designers have shunned DI even after its supposed benefits had been apparent for 17 years in the case of the AUG and 44 years in the case of the HK416. Sure DI will get you by in reliability therefore it’s A-okay right? Wrong, getting by and getting the best is patently two very different things as SOCOM know and the regular army will no doubt go by when they do change. Don’t get me wrong, the m16 design spanks the AK47 hands down in every area but reliability in my opinion. So if reliability isn’t #1 and you reckon DI will do what you need it to do the answer is obvious – AR15/M16. However the original AK47 was left behind long ago in arms development, even by Russia, and assault rifles around the world sure haven’t been limited to the AK design. So when it comes to AR15/M16 vs contemporary (and even 1978 vintage) gas piston, DI certainly isn’t the best, a point made by SOCOM and regular armies worldwide, domestic designs and small arms adoptions.
 
I am just gonna put it this way a gas piston in the hands of a U.S. G.I. grunt will look like a "u" shape after Private Snuffy tries to clean his rifle. I respect the research the U.S. Army currently puts into an item before fielding it. Therefore in arming a mass infantry the DI sytem must be better for whatever reasons the World's Greatest Fighting Force have deemed necessary.
 
Why is everyone mentioning the XM8? That thing melted into the ditches of history.

DI works. but man do people need something to complain about.
 
Seems designers have shunned DI even after its supposed benefits had been apparent for 17 years in the case of the AUG and 44 years in the case of the HK416. Sure DI will get you by in reliability therefore it’s A-okay right? Wrong, getting by and getting the best is patently two very different things as SOCOM know and the regular army will no doubt go by when they do change.
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Lemme rephrase the argument you've made here:

If somebody chooses a weapons platform that I like, it validates my worldview. If somebody chooses a weapons platform that I don't like, it's because they don't know any better.

Hmmm - OK. If you say so.

As an aside, Grantman - how many of these rifles have you fired, owned, and/or taken into austere conditions yourself?
 
I don't like DI...it is dirty an therefore causes most of the problems that are inherent with the design of AR family of weapons; however I will not go as far as to say that it is likely to fail...it isn't. I can't even say that it is a bad design...just not my favorite...nor is it what I consider the best...but concluding that it is a totally unreliable POS is a big jump. :)
 
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