AR15 (S&W M&P15) Accuracy?

[S4Lee]

Went to the range today to shoot my relatively new M&P15FT (16" bull barrel, single stage trigger). Now, I know this is not an accurized benchrest rifle, but from what I've read and by the recommendation at the gunshop, I thought this is a fairly good and accurate example of the AR15 platform. My first time out, I put about 200 rounds through it, but I wasn't going for pinpoint accuracy, just trying to get the sights close to zero'd, put a few rounds through it to losen the action up a bit, trying a few different ammos, and so I wasn't too concerned with my groupings.

This time, I wanted to see a bit more of what this rifle would do. Using a 4x ACOG, my first 5 shots were a 2" group at 100yds with Lake City M192 shot off a bench using a CAA grip/bipod. Not bad, considering the bipod and what I heard about this ammo, and the tarnished look of the brass, I thought. It went downhill from there... Groups opened up a bit to ~3" with the occasional 'flyer' (is that the shooting equivalent of a Mulligan?) every 5-8 rds. Went through ~100 rounds of similar results, though I did tighten up a bit when I closed the bipod and just rested the grip on the bench (yeah, I know...I got to get some sandbags or a proper rest to really tell).

What I was really disappointed with was the 2 boxes of Federal Gold Match 69gr BTHP I also went through. I wasn't expecting miracles, but I didn't see much difference, either, for 3 (almost 4?) times the price of the LC. Now, I'm relatively new (again, used to plink a bit when I was younger) to shooting, but I did fairly well in my NRA Basic Course, putting 22LR through a single hole at ~20 yds using peep sights, so I think I got the basics down.

So, before I invest in some better rests and maybe more of the expensive ammo, my question is this: Should I be expecting much more from myself and this rifle, or is ~2MAO about the best I can expect from this type and particular rifle? Ive also read that some rifles 'settle down' after a few hundred rounds - do you think I could still expect that to happen? I'm not really looking to modify the rifle itself to try and make it more accurate, I just want to know what it's capable of. I will be going back and experimenting with some other ammo as well...

Any thoughts / comments? Thx!

 

[W.E.G.]

Those groups sound very normal for the configuration and shooting position you describe.

The Federal ammo probably has a better velocity standard deviation than the military ammo. So, you will see the benefits of that ammo at distances where the vertical dispersion caused by variation in velocity causes the groups to open up. At 100 yards, you will see little benefit from premium ammo over good-quality military ammo.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

My S&W AR likes 62 grain Barnes TSX bullets...with my reloads it will shoot 1 inch @ 100 yards.

The load recipe...
Winchester brass
26 grains of Reloder 15
62 grain Barnes TSX bullet
OAL is 2.27 (barely fits in the mag...and is not a reliable feeder, but I only use this load for target work)
Federal 205M primer.

2.26 OAL feeds fine but is not quite as accurate at 1.25 - 1.5 inches at 100 yards...all are 10 shot groups.

Mine is just a plain jane M&P 15 with a 3x9-40 Leupold scope.

 

[def4pos8]

Oh, I think you'll be able to do better.

Never attempt to shoot for accuracy with a "hard" support. When hunting in Germany and desperate for support, I took that strange wool hat with the boar's brush off of my head and got it between my forend and some wood.

I suspect that your groups will improve to at least 1.5 inch with a proper sandbag rest and best ammunition.

You might, also, stick with two or three loads of good reputation as you become familiar with this particular rifle. Don't experiment too much right away. You're still "wearing in" things and learning how the trigger truly feels.

I could dog you some about how my SIG 556 shot so well "out of the box" but I'll save you the "buyer's remorse"!

 

[S4Lee]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

@Ridgerunner - Thx. I filed your recipe for when I start reloading. Right now, I'm just collecting brass.

@def4pos8 - I looked at the SIGs online, but I don't think they have a NJ-legal config. I do like the DMR, and if I can find one in a NJ-legal config someday, maybe I'll add it to my collection for the 'precision' work.

 

[taliv]

you don't need more expensive ammo. you need match ammo. m193 is neither cheap nor match ammo.

 

[Nhsport]

Don't believe the armchair commandos who go to the range and report on their best group of the day. That is only their best group,not what they can reproduce at any given time!
Your gun likely has some potential yet but a combo of several factors are working against you.
1)4X isn't much power
2)stock triggers when new are usually a bit rough
3)bipods usually don't work as well as good sandbags
4) ammo.
You actually seem to be doing fine,keep at it.
My experience is that the Fed GM69 load doesn't start looking good untill you get past 100 yards. At 100 it is only slightly better than ball ammo.
The load I use for accuracy testing is a winchester 45gr "VARMINT 3600FPS" I have bought it at Wall-Mart and other discount sporting goods. It comes in a 40 round box. It has performed very well in most rifles with 1/9 and 1/8 twist,not sure if it would work as well in 1/7.
If you see any around the Privi ammo has worked a bit better than the Fed (LC) ball ammo and is usually slightly cheeper.

 

[El Tejon]

Nothing wrong with a 2MOA carbine. If it stays under 5 inches at 200 yards it's a keeper!

Only 1 in 500 gun owners can shoot up to their weapons, so inherent accuracy should not worry you, and especially me.

 

[Onmilo]

It has been my experience that a new rifle barrel will not settle down and start producing grouping potential until 1000 rounds or more have been sent downrange.
2" groups from a new barrel isn't bad at all.

 

[S4Lee]

Unfortunately, there was a match going on, so I couldn't get on the 200/300 yd range last weekend, though I did want to.

m193 is neither cheap nor match ammo.

The M193 I bought was (IIRC) $7.99 a box (20). That was probably the cheapest stuff I've bought so far, except for maybe the Winchester WB 5.56. Care to share what you consider cheap & decent (that I don't have to buy by the pallet)?

I've seen the Privi for sale at a gun show. I'll keep an eye out for it next time I go.

 

[wcwhitey]

Buy some good match ammo like Black Hills. Seriously 2" groups from a new barrel with M193 is not bad. My target AR is a 16" DPMS Low Pro, free floated, stock trigger and bipod. 1.5 to 2" is normal with ball ammo. With good reloads or match ammo sub MOA is easy to achieve. My 1/9 rifle prefers 52 Sierra MK's out to 200 yards (longest local range).

 

[taliv]

that's a pretty good deal on m193 from lake city. that's better than ammoman's case price.

don't misunderstand. i'm not saying m193 is bad. it's great stuff for what it was designed to do. it's just not match ammo.

wolf, winchester white box, etc are what i'd call cheap. (not bad for plinking...)

i haven't tried this stuff myself because i handload, but look at something like this http://wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8452

if you've got the cash, the hornady tap 75g or fed GM match stuff would probably give you sub MOA

 

[brighamr]

the 7 pound trigger pull isn't helping. The triggers are gritty at first. Upgrading to a 2 stage trigger resolves both issues and will help with accuracy. price: $136-245 pending replacement parts

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

M193 is basically 3-4MOA ammo in most rifles, so I wouldn't feel too disappointed with the results.

If you can find it, the Hornady Practice 55gr FMJ provides excellent accuracy at a good price; but is steel cased (and some rifles don't care for it).

I would try the Winchester White Box 45gr JHPs or 55gr TAP from Hornady. Both of these loads almost always perform well in ARs.

Also, was that a chrome-lined barrel? From what I have read and seen, those barrels take longer to find their "sweet spot" for accuracy; but will hold that spot a tiny bit longer than an unlined barrel.

 

[S4Lee]

Yep, it is a chrome-lined barrel.

I have a couple of boxes of TAP 60gr FPD but haven't shot any of it yet. I wanted to shoot the cheap stuff until I got a better feel for the rifle. Geez... I didn't realize I've been stocking up on so much ammo....I've been buying it faster than I can shoot it! I I'll keep an eye out for deals on the 55gr TAP, but would 45gr rounds be a little light for the 1/9" twist?

I've also heard good things about Black Hills, so I'll try that someday, too, though I'm still trying to figure out the difference between the Red and Blue boxed stuff? Is there a big difference?

The trigger's not the greatest, but it's not horrible. I may look into a drop-in trigger upgrade someday, but I want this to be more of a 'service' rifle than a pure precision shooter.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'll keep an eye out for deals on the 55gr TAP, but would 45gr rounds be a little light for the 1/9" twist?

No. I've shot the WWB 45gr JHP out of 1:7 twists with no problems and they do nicely in 1:9s.

I've also heard good things about Black Hills, so I'll try that someday, too, though I'm still trying to figure out the difference between the Red and Blue boxed stuff? Is there a big difference?

If there is a difference, I am not a good enough shooter to notice it.