Full Metal Jacket
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you should avoid mak's in general. get a cz-82/83. far superior in quality.
Are all Makarov's created equal?
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you should avoid mak's in general. get a cz-82/83. far superior in quality.
bdb benzino
Member
This is one of the most unexperienced and incorrect things I have ever heard!! While the Mak may hold less rounds, both pistols are of great quality. Some people dont need to compensate for extra ammo, and 7-9 rounds is plenty.
Full Metal Jacket
member
your post is analogous to saying pintos are the same quality as mercedes.
i've fired quite a few of both, and the Mak's are have painful edges along the back of the grip, 30lb trigger pulls, the sites would often shift during firing, and it has far more muzzle jump than the same fixed barrel designed CZ 82/83.
i wouldn't have made the comment if i didn't have the experience to form my opinion
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That hasn't been my experience with the Mak either. The trigger pulls are fine for a military pistol and get better with use. Mine aren't painfull to shoot and are VERY accurate. If you don't like the feel of the grip, excellent aftermarket grips are available like the Pearce grip. Makes it very comfy to shoot. I think we just have some Mak haters here.
i think u will find haters in any situation... but i do welcome any and all reviews, so long as the fussing doesnt get my thread closed down...
regarding trigger pull, i have heard that about the 64, but also that there are lighter springs to help that... the PA-63 should be approx 13-15lbs if i remember correctly from what ive read.
and im sure my dad will be a hater if i mention buying anything that doest say Springfield on the slide...
regarding trigger pull, i have heard that about the 64, but also that there are lighter springs to help that... the PA-63 should be approx 13-15lbs if i remember correctly from what ive read.
and im sure my dad will be a hater if i mention buying anything that doest say Springfield on the slide...
Snowdog
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Oh, I don't think Full Metal Jacket is a Mak hater, he's just been spoiled by the CZ-82... just as I have been.
How can one not become spoiled with a pistol that's seemingly built around ergonomics, is amazingly accurate and reliable while having usable sights, an excellent trigger and topped off with controls in the proper place.
Maks have a lot going for them though! However, when CZ-82s are selling for less than Maks (currently anyway), I just found it difficult not to throw the CZ-82 option into the fray while slathering it with just deserved praise. After all, they are quite awesome.
How can one not become spoiled with a pistol that's seemingly built around ergonomics, is amazingly accurate and reliable while having usable sights, an excellent trigger and topped off with controls in the proper place.
Maks have a lot going for them though! However, when CZ-82s are selling for less than Maks (currently anyway), I just found it difficult not to throw the CZ-82 option into the fray while slathering it with just deserved praise. After all, they are quite awesome.
bdb benzino
Member
There is nothing wrong with the CZ 82, in fact I am thinking about picking one up lately. But that does not make the Mak equal to pinto's and the CZ equal to Mercedes, and that comparison is hating at its finest!!lol. Some people do not like pistols they do not own. I have never fired any pistol that the sights jumped around, and I find my E. German Mak to be soft shooting not painful. All the things he said about the Mak he fired makes me wonder if he knows exactly what a Mak is!!lol.
Not to mention they are comonly refered to as "reliable as a revolver" and have the fewest number of parts and are more simple, which hints at more reliable in the long run. JMHO!
Not to mention they are comonly refered to as "reliable as a revolver" and have the fewest number of parts and are more simple, which hints at more reliable in the long run. JMHO!
emilianoksa
Member
The CZ 83 is actually much more expensive than the Mak here.
It is undoubtedly an easier gun to shoot, and has an excellent trigger.
And yet there's something about a Mak that made me choose one over a CZ, apart from price.
I love its simple, elegant lines, and, unlike the CZ, the Mak is a gun that has history. It's also easier to carry.
I'd love to have a CZ as well. It's a lovely shooter.
It is undoubtedly an easier gun to shoot, and has an excellent trigger.
And yet there's something about a Mak that made me choose one over a CZ, apart from price.
I love its simple, elegant lines, and, unlike the CZ, the Mak is a gun that has history. It's also easier to carry.
I'd love to have a CZ as well. It's a lovely shooter.
My Bulgarian Mak is one of the most reliable pistols I own. It will shoot accurately every single time, no matter when the last time you cleaned it. The quality versus dollar point is unmatched (I did get mine for $200.00 w/ 2 sets of grips, 2 holsters and 5 magazines). It is small enough to carry in any pocket as long as you don't wear tight leather pants (or shorts!). Buy one and shoot it, if you don't like it put it in a safe.
millertyme
Member
All this reading about guns is making me crazy! I have a new to me CZ 75B and an EAA Witness P 45 I haven't been able to go out and shoot yet and all you people do is keep talking about all the other guns I want to get my paws on! ARGH!!!
On a more reasonable side, I have looked at them all. The "real" Maks are pretty sweet and would make for a fine CCW. The P64 is a nice one-off, but not the same as a decent Mak. And as for the CZ82, if you can conceal it, why not have 12 rounds in your magazine? I could conceal my P95, if you can believe that, and I loved the idea of 15 rounds. The fit and finish on the CZ82 was pretty amazing, especially for a $200 pistol, but the Bulgarian Mak I handled wasn't too bad, either. However, for the same price and not that much difference in size, I would pick the CZ.
On a more reasonable side, I have looked at them all. The "real" Maks are pretty sweet and would make for a fine CCW. The P64 is a nice one-off, but not the same as a decent Mak. And as for the CZ82, if you can conceal it, why not have 12 rounds in your magazine? I could conceal my P95, if you can believe that, and I loved the idea of 15 rounds. The fit and finish on the CZ82 was pretty amazing, especially for a $200 pistol, but the Bulgarian Mak I handled wasn't too bad, either. However, for the same price and not that much difference in size, I would pick the CZ.
Dnaltrop
Member
My old man has fallen in love with his... owned 2 holsters 4 months before buying his first pistol.
My hands are huge, and it's a comfortable little gun in my hand (though not yet had the chance to fire it)
What intrigues me most, is the Spetsnaz automatic-chambering holster for them. (edit, It appears to be called the EFA-2)
the gun is carried loaded, but un-chambered, and in less than half a second the user can draw downward, and the holster works the slide, chambering a round in the process, or ejecting any round within already through a small vent.
Obviously, if someone grabs for the gun, unless they already know what the holster does, they'll draw upward, leaving you time to disarm them before they can ready the gun.
My hands are huge, and it's a comfortable little gun in my hand (though not yet had the chance to fire it)
What intrigues me most, is the Spetsnaz automatic-chambering holster for them. (edit, It appears to be called the EFA-2)
the gun is carried loaded, but un-chambered, and in less than half a second the user can draw downward, and the holster works the slide, chambering a round in the process, or ejecting any round within already through a small vent.
Obviously, if someone grabs for the gun, unless they already know what the holster does, they'll draw upward, leaving you time to disarm them before they can ready the gun.
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christcorp
Member
The CZ-83 is NOT the same as a CZ-82. Yes, it's part interchangeable, but the CZ-82 is the REAL 9mm Makarov chambered Military/Police Czech gun. The CZ-83 is NEW and much more expensive. And generally, chambered for 380. The CZ-83 has NO real history. The CZ-82 does have history. And the CZ-82 is usually much cheaper than a Makarov.
Back on topic. I LOVE my East German Makarov. But there is no way that it touches the quality, ergonomics, and accuracy of my CZ-82. Makarovs are very nice guns, but CZ-82 are great guns. Granted, the CZ-82 has only been around since 1982+/-, and the Makarov has about 30 years more of history, but that 30 years gave the czechs time to improve on the pistols and come up with a much better firearm. Yes, I love my E. german Mak, but the CZ-82 is so much better.
North Bender
Member
Because my 9x18 CZ-83 has a square trigger guard it could have reliability problems compared to the CZ-82?
It's always funny to read people's rants on which is the "better" gun. It's like trying to convince someone apples are better than oranges. I like them both and each has some advantages. The Makarov has the marked advantage of being able to completely dissassemble (try taking a CZ-82 completely apart) so home smithing is pretty easy; parts are cheap, and it's slightly smaller than a CZ-82. Does that make it a "better" gun? I won't say so, but it may have advantages that some will appreciate over the CZ-82. The 82 feels better in my hand and carries more rounds. To each his own.
It's always funny to read people's rants on which is the "better" gun. It's like trying to convince someone apples are better than oranges. I like them both and each has some advantages. The Makarov has the marked advantage of being able to completely dissassemble (try taking a CZ-82 completely apart) so home smithing is pretty easy; parts are cheap, and it's slightly smaller than a CZ-82. Does that make it a "better" gun? I won't say so, but it may have advantages that some will appreciate over the CZ-82. The 82 feels better in my hand and carries more rounds. To each his own.
wojownik
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For "true" Makarovs (Makarov PM), your options are Russian, East Germ, Bulgarian, and Chinese. Unless the OP is just generally seeking a pistol in and 9x18 makarov caliber.
Russian, EG and Bulgarian Makarov PMs are very good, reliable shooters. I had a friend that served as a junior NCO in a Soviet armored company (mid 1980s) - his LT (лейтена́нт) had an "accidental discharge" when pointing his Mak between my friends legs and decocking. That's the one anti-Russian mak story I've ever heard, but it sounded more like user error (there was alcohol involved, ahem). Otherwise, the Russian military Maks are harder to find and more expensive than the Bulgarian Maks. Personally, I'd go with a Bulgarian Mak as a shooter, and if you ever find a Russian Mak PM, that may be a collector.
The Chinese Mak PMs are not as good as the others, but some see them as collectible as well.
Then as a variant from the Makarov PM is the Polish Wanad (P-83). They are also inexpensive, and an accurate though somewhat more utilitarian design. The other Polish pistol in the 9x18 caliber is the P-63. I like mine, but to make it really usable - because of its impossibly hard DA pull - some work needs to be done. These are not Makarov pistols, per se.
The Hungarian FEGs are not quite as good as the above. I got rid of my PA some time ago. More a Walther clone than a Makarov.
The CZ-82s are in a different class of pistol, IMHO. Excellent design, just a very different pistol. I love mine. Ergonomic, accurate, virtually indestructable. It's doesn't happen to be a true Makarov PM, if that is what one is looking for.
Russian, EG and Bulgarian Makarov PMs are very good, reliable shooters. I had a friend that served as a junior NCO in a Soviet armored company (mid 1980s) - his LT (лейтена́нт) had an "accidental discharge" when pointing his Mak between my friends legs and decocking. That's the one anti-Russian mak story I've ever heard, but it sounded more like user error (there was alcohol involved, ahem). Otherwise, the Russian military Maks are harder to find and more expensive than the Bulgarian Maks. Personally, I'd go with a Bulgarian Mak as a shooter, and if you ever find a Russian Mak PM, that may be a collector.
The Chinese Mak PMs are not as good as the others, but some see them as collectible as well.
Then as a variant from the Makarov PM is the Polish Wanad (P-83). They are also inexpensive, and an accurate though somewhat more utilitarian design. The other Polish pistol in the 9x18 caliber is the P-63. I like mine, but to make it really usable - because of its impossibly hard DA pull - some work needs to be done. These are not Makarov pistols, per se.
The Hungarian FEGs are not quite as good as the above. I got rid of my PA some time ago. More a Walther clone than a Makarov.
The CZ-82s are in a different class of pistol, IMHO. Excellent design, just a very different pistol. I love mine. Ergonomic, accurate, virtually indestructable. It's doesn't happen to be a true Makarov PM, if that is what one is looking for.
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christcorp
Member
I consider the polish P-83 and P64 and the Hungarian PA-63 totally nothing as a variant of the true Makarovs. The FEG PA-63 is a variant of the Walther PPK.
The BEST Makarov is the E. German, Next is the Russian. Chinese and Bulgarians are pretty much a wash. Just that the Chinese is hard to find, that they are more valuable.
You are correct that the CZ-82 is in a class all it's own. Then again, it wasn't even developed for another 30 years after the Russian Makarov. So, the Czechs had a few years to improve on the design, while using the same caliber.
The BEST Makarov is the E. German, Next is the Russian. Chinese and Bulgarians are pretty much a wash. Just that the Chinese is hard to find, that they are more valuable.
You are correct that the CZ-82 is in a class all it's own. Then again, it wasn't even developed for another 30 years after the Russian Makarov. So, the Czechs had a few years to improve on the design, while using the same caliber.
Attention, PM Makarov (and CZ-82/3) owners, please! Could you stop posting on how great a VALUE your pistol is?
That might have been true - 10 years ago.
I've only seen one anywhere less than $300.00, and I've seen barbell weights that had a better fit and finish than that example.
So just keep in mind that it's 2010 before posting how underrated your $400 dollar surplus pocket pistols are. Yes, we know. You got a great deal on yours. Enjoy.
That might have been true - 10 years ago.
I've only seen one anywhere less than $300.00, and I've seen barbell weights that had a better fit and finish than that example.
So just keep in mind that it's 2010 before posting how underrated your $400 dollar surplus pocket pistols are. Yes, we know. You got a great deal on yours. Enjoy.
Snowdog
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Shop much?
The CZ-82 wasn't C&R until 2007. The supply is now showing signs of drying up.
We will continue to annoy you personally until you purchase one. Those are our terms.
Seriously, just ignore whatever annoys you; you can always continue to scroll down ya know.
WardenWolf
member
Gloob, I paid $260 for my Bulgarian Makarov before the price dropped, and I still consider it a good deal. I'd challenge you to find a nicer brand new pistol for that price. The fit and finish is superb, and it was basically brand new and unfired. So consider this: I paid $260 for a gun that was essentially "New old stock". Good luck finding that kind of deal on a quality new commercial gun. You're not going to. Until you can honestly say you can get a brand new commercial gun, with all the reliability of a proven military design, for that price, it's a good deal.
christcorp
Member
I just bought another CZ-82 (Needed a brother) at a gun show about 3 weeks ago. Got it for $200 + tax = $212 out the door. Gun dealer in town has another E. German Makarov. He doesn't want too much for it, but it comes with like 4 magazines. So he wants $350 for it. Great price for it with 4 magazines. I just don't need that many. I have plenty. He was honest and said if I could find someone to buy 3 magazines, he's sell me the E. German for $250. I'm tempted to buy the whole thing and gunbroker the extra magazines. With what I have now, I probably already have 11-12 makarov magazines. Don't even know where they all are.
Anyway, the price of the 9mm makarov chambered pistols are STILL a great deal. Sorry Gloob, but take the gloob out of your eyes and look around. You'll see great prices. Except on gun broker where everything is over priced.
P64: $159
PA-63: $189
Polish P83 $230
Bulgarian Mak: $230
CZ-82: $219
These are very good prices. The PA63 are drying up quick. So are the polish P64. The CZ-82 are still out there; but within about another year, that will be about gone too. Pretty soon, gunbroker and their high prices will be the only place to find them.
And I do agree that when these guns pass the $300 mark, they really aren't worth the price unless you really like military/police weapons. Once you pass the $300 mark, there are many used guns of good quality that can start to be found. But under $300, the 9x18 pistols are still some of the best deals out there. Especially for the ammo. For new guns, sorry, but Hi-Point is still a good gun for the price. But that's another topic.
Anyway, the price of the 9mm makarov chambered pistols are STILL a great deal. Sorry Gloob, but take the gloob out of your eyes and look around. You'll see great prices. Except on gun broker where everything is over priced.
P64: $159
PA-63: $189
Polish P83 $230
Bulgarian Mak: $230
CZ-82: $219
These are very good prices. The PA63 are drying up quick. So are the polish P64. The CZ-82 are still out there; but within about another year, that will be about gone too. Pretty soon, gunbroker and their high prices will be the only place to find them.
And I do agree that when these guns pass the $300 mark, they really aren't worth the price unless you really like military/police weapons. Once you pass the $300 mark, there are many used guns of good quality that can start to be found. But under $300, the 9x18 pistols are still some of the best deals out there. Especially for the ammo. For new guns, sorry, but Hi-Point is still a good gun for the price. But that's another topic.
Wardenwolf, where did you get yours?
I drove up to J&G personally, a couple weeks ago, the day after I saw the price drop. I was SURE I was about to buy my first PM Mak. Maybe they were holding out on me, but the "best" ones I saw were in terrible shape. The casting on the frames was very rough, the finish worn off, the safety catches stained bright orange from cosmoline. The original red handles were so worn down you could barely see the ribs and the star was completely worn off. They looked like WWII relics.
Instead, I picked up one of their P-64's in excellent condition. Unissued, from the looks of it.
I bought a PA-63 a couple years ago, when they were "flooding the market," so to speak. Back then, per the gun forum consensus, I got ripped off at $150.00. Today, I'm glad I got "ripped off" because last one I saw at a gun show the guy wouldn't go a dollar less than $240.00.
Prices on ALL guns (except GLOCKS) has gone up quite a bit in the last few years - at least in my non-FFL world where I buy guns I see IRL, not over the internet. The last CZ-82 I've seen was listed at $449.00. I'm not kidding. When I finally found a decent makarov for $280.00, I would have gladly purchased it, if it wasn't in .380! All the "GLOCK wannabees" XD, MP all cost the same or MORE than GLOCK, around here. Another gun I thought cost less than a GLOCK was the FNP-9. When I finally found one for sale, it was $650.00.
So if I sound like a troll, it's only because I'm JEALOUS!
I drove up to J&G personally, a couple weeks ago, the day after I saw the price drop. I was SURE I was about to buy my first PM Mak. Maybe they were holding out on me, but the "best" ones I saw were in terrible shape. The casting on the frames was very rough, the finish worn off, the safety catches stained bright orange from cosmoline. The original red handles were so worn down you could barely see the ribs and the star was completely worn off. They looked like WWII relics.
Instead, I picked up one of their P-64's in excellent condition. Unissued, from the looks of it.
I bought a PA-63 a couple years ago, when they were "flooding the market," so to speak. Back then, per the gun forum consensus, I got ripped off at $150.00. Today, I'm glad I got "ripped off" because last one I saw at a gun show the guy wouldn't go a dollar less than $240.00.
Prices on ALL guns (except GLOCKS) has gone up quite a bit in the last few years - at least in my non-FFL world where I buy guns I see IRL, not over the internet. The last CZ-82 I've seen was listed at $449.00. I'm not kidding. When I finally found a decent makarov for $280.00, I would have gladly purchased it, if it wasn't in .380! All the "GLOCK wannabees" XD, MP all cost the same or MORE than GLOCK, around here. Another gun I thought cost less than a GLOCK was the FNP-9. When I finally found one for sale, it was $650.00.
So if I sound like a troll, it's only because I'm JEALOUS!
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WardenWolf
member
I ordered mine from AIM Surplus. They're out of them now. Note that dried cosmoline residue can make a firearm APPEAR rough until you clean it. Also, the reddish safety and sight was intentional, although a bluing pen will darken it in about 2 minutes if you don't like it. I also made a trip to J&G Sales and got a P-64. I'm happy with both guns. Kind of wishing I'd picked up that P-83 they had, too.
Here's a picture of my Makarov. I've since installed a set of Pearce rubber grips on it, and I have a set of wooden Marschal grips on the way:
Here's a picture of my Makarov. I've since installed a set of Pearce rubber grips on it, and I have a set of wooden Marschal grips on the way:
Very nice looking gun, Wolf! I'd be quite pleased with that PM for what you paid!
Your cosmoline theory is intriguing. I might have to drive back up there and take another look. I did find one annoying "defect" on my P-64 that turned out to be nothing but dried cosmoline. But I can't imagine that these particular pistols were "brand new and unfired," like yours was, considering the way the handles were worn.
Your cosmoline theory is intriguing. I might have to drive back up there and take another look. I did find one annoying "defect" on my P-64 that turned out to be nothing but dried cosmoline. But I can't imagine that these particular pistols were "brand new and unfired," like yours was, considering the way the handles were worn.
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