Are Rugers REALLY stronger than S&W's?

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I read somewhere, a long time ago, that older colt and S&W revolvers were built on "black powder frames" whereas the ruger frames were developed strictly for smokeless, And therefor made stronger.

I would imagine the same does not hold true any longer, but myths and ledgends never die.
 
Note also that people are talking about "Blackhawks" and .44 Magnum. There are relatively few .44 Blackhawks, and no recent ones except for the flattop reissues.

The single action .44's currently for sale are the beefed-up Super Blackhawks, introduced in 1959:
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Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of "Thermonuclear loads of .357mag, for my blackhawk"Only" I would never use them in my S&W hiway patrolman.

In my mind, the best way to keep your "puppy" in good health is to keep him away from the "BIG DOGS" food.
 
I think the reason has to do with the sideplate-less design of the Ruger; it's one solid piece through and through. Really from a pure design angle I like the Ruger better; the liftout trigger group is nice too.

Bingo. I love the way the trigger group pops out of the DA designs, too, much easier cleaning and routine maintenance. The big advantage is that there are TWO SIDES to the gun, not just one side with a cover plate. Two is stronger than one.

Sold my SP101 back to my son-in-law. Might get a 3" sometime. My Blackhawks, though, can handle loads an N frame would shutter from. Don't load up your .45 Colt Mtn gun with my Blackhawk loads. You would regret it. I have probably 1K of those loads through that gun, don't shoot 'em a LOT, but enough for field practice. The gun has shown no ill effects. I'm loading 20.0 gr 2400 behind a 300 grain Hornady XTP. That's a rather warm load with .44 mag ballistics. My normal light load is safe in any .45 Colt, but I wanted the Ruger for that hot load option in the field. If I wanted a mtn gun in a heavy caliber, I'd go with the .44 mag. The N frame can handle the .44 better, smaller, more meat in the cylinder, smaller case head can handle higher pressures. I'd bet, though, that a .45 Colt Blackhawk will outlast a .44 mag mtn gun both firing hot loads.
 
I can speak most authoritatively about my police service six, which is roughly the same size as a S&W K-frame. I've owned it for 26 years and have run some very hot loads through it from time to time. These same loads, while within limits of the reloading texts, loosened more than a couple of S&W Model 19s and 66s, as well as at least one Colt Trooper. I can discern only normal wear on the Police Service Six. I may have bought an exceptional sample of their production, but I doubt it.
The S&W and Colt revolvers seem more amenable to tuning of triggers than the Ruger. I assume that this is because there are more articulating surfaces in the S&W and Colt pieces, while the Rugers appear to be constructed of fewer, heavier, more sturdy parts.
A "torture test" of Ruger's Redhawk vs. a Colt Anaconda or a S&W M29 is a bit beyond my financial means. It ALSO sounds like it would hurt my hands. Nonetheless, I would expect the "Elmer Keith original" .44 magnum loads to loosen the S&W and Colt before the Redhawk, to say nothing of some very sore hands.
 
"A Ruger will stand up to any load I can put in it, you can't blow them up."

The guy who said that blew up a nice Redhawk a couple of weeks later with a "triplex" load. He now refuses to talk about it.

Jim
 
Someone (was it this board?) blew up a Blackhawk, I think. Oh, yeah, you put enough fast powder in a big case, you'll blow any Ruger, just like anything else. For instance, try (no not really, I'm being hypothetical!!!) 20 grains of Bullseye instead of 2400 in a .45 Colt case. If you were half asleep or half sober, you might could pick up the wrong powder container, ya know. :D
 
All alloys being equal, forged parts will be significantly stronger than cast parts.
Forged is stronger, in the same thickness, and it is more uniform. Casting can be good or bad, it really depends on the process whether imperfections exist in the finished product that reduce strength.
If the casting is both good, using good steel alloys, and significantly thicker than the forged metal it can still be stronger, which is the case with the Rugers.


I think the reason has to do with the sideplate-less design of the Ruger; it's one solid piece through and through. Really from a pure design angle I like the Ruger better; the liftout trigger group is nice too.

Rugers appear to be constructed of fewer, heavier, more sturdy parts.
Exactly, simple and robust.
Fewer tiny parts to suffer wear, get out of tune etc.
The parts that are there are bigger and stronger.

Both though are fine designs. The Smiths and Colts can be setup to be perfect for most people. While the Rugers are more or less the way they are, and you have to adapt to the Ruger. You can change grips, or improve the trigger, but to retain what makes them great you have to deal with them for what they are. A heavy duty clunker that can digest many heavy rounds with little wear, and withstand abuse without complaint.
It is a mule. It does what it does for generations, and does not change much.

The Smith is more the thoroughbred that can be graceful and an absolute pleasure to use, like an extension of your hand. It however also needs a lot of grooming, the perfect diet, can be finicky, and loses more of what makes it great with age.
 
ArmedBear said:
Note also that people are talking about "Blackhawks" and .44 Magnum. There are relatively few .44 Blackhawks, and no recent ones except for the flattop reissues.

The single action .44's currently for sale are the beefed-up Super Blackhawks, introduced in 1959:

Weren't all the changes from the Blackhawk to the Super Blackhawk just about ergonomics and weight? AFAIK they used pretty much the same frame, but went to a larger steel grip frame, unfluted cylinder, etc.
 
Flawed casting can be weak.

However...

Ruger's claim to fame is their investment casting, which they do for other companies and other industries also. They've operated a separate casting shop for outside service for 45 years.

This is their casting shop web site: http://www.ruger.com/Casting/index.html

If their castings were weak, we'd know it by now.:)
 
The issue I have with the (casting has to be bigger to be stronger)thinking is if it's true why does the super blackhawk 7 1/2" barrel weigh 1oz less than the 629 with the 6 1/2" barrel. If casting has to be bigger then shouldn't the blackhawk weigh considerably more?
 
Comparing total wieght to determine frame strenght is like judging a swim suit model based on her bathing suit...
 
Does anyone know the legend behind the testing of the Ruger Old Army...?

If your a reloader, you will fully appreciate this. Bill Ruger had an Old Army loaded up with 40 grains of Bullseye to see if it was strong enough to hold up to a mistaken Smokeless load....

It held up....

Man, I would have paid good money to see that test,,,,,LOL!

Giz
 
The only reason I compared weight was to show that the rugers arent overbuilt to compensate for the "weaker" casting. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against smiths or any other maker for that matter, in fact I just sent my dan wesson 357 maximum to the factory for a possible bent crane(I think the previous owner did something to it) and if all DW's have a trigger like this one I might be trading in a few of my rugers.
 
With new hardening and heat treating processes,and the latest metals, investment castings are size to size just as strong as forgings.The reason the investment casting is used so much it is cheaper than forgings which means more profit for the manufactuer.
 
S&W M29 vs Super Blackhawk

First, the Super Blackhawk has the same frame as the Blackhawk. The cylinder is the same diameter as the 44 Blackhawk cylinder but is slightly longer.

There are more ways than one to ruin a revolver. It's not just pressure, but recoil and a few other factors that come into play as well.

As for catastrophic failure, both the S&W M29 and the Super Blackhawk cylinders will fail at the same pressure, around 60,000 cup. This is by actual destructive testing.

In a catastrophic failure due to gross overload cylinders do not typically fail at the bolt notch. They usually fail first at the web between chambers. (After the fact it take a forensic medtalurgy examination of the pieces to determine the failure point.) The primary reason for a the five shot big bore is to get thicker walls between chambers. If it were merely a matter of getting the bolt notch away from the ceneter of the chamber there are other ways to do that, look at a Dan Wesson. There is an exception for a bolt notch that has been cut deeper than spec. In which case the bottom of the notch may bulge or even fail producing a crack in the notch area.

I have seen a S&W M27 test fired with the side of the cylinder ground down to the level of the notch bottom along the entire length of the cylnder with out failure.

All this said, the S&W will go loose quicker than a Blackhawk with heavy loads. One weak point is the method of limiting forward cylinder travel. The yoke tail bears on the bottom of the cylinder well with a very small area. In recent times S&W has taken steps to improve this in the M29 by heat treating the yoke tail and increasing the area. But the real cure would be to locate the cylinder at the neck where much more area is available, as most other revolvers do.

Bottom line, either one will take the same overload to blow, but short of that it's easier to beat the S&W to death.

BTW: My background is reliability engineering.
 
I read somewhere, a long time ago, that older colt and S&W revolvers were built on "black powder frames" whereas the ruger frames were developed strictly for smokeless, And therefor made stronger.

I would imagine the same does not hold true any longer, but myths and ledgends never die.

The very first double action revolver was indeed black powder only. It was fragile and broke often. IIRC, Billy the Kid used one, the 1877(?) Colt DA--more commonly recognized by the name "Lightning". Later double actions from Colt, as well as the first from S&W, were all originally designed for, and used with, black powder cartridges. In fact, IIRC, what is now the Model 10 was originally chambered for the .38 Long Colt cartridge. The basic gun dates back to the late 1880's or early 1890's. The first .38 special ammo was also loaded with black powder.

Obviously, since black powder fell out of favor, newer guns are built from better steels and have some improvements---but they're still basically the same as those first DAs intended for BP only.
 
The reason the investment casting is used so much it is cheaper than forgings which means more profit for the manufactuer.

And a more reasonable MSRP, which helps sell the gun in the first place. Some think money equals quality. Ruger is a good example of that not being the case. I'll buy a new Ruger. I won't buy a post lock new Smith even at equal price, let alone at twice the price.
 
I wonder if the argument could not be made about heat treatment of forged frames, and frame stretching under heavy loads. S&W did address that issue.

However, no one seems to be addressing endshake in the S&W's here...What makes S&Ws so sensitive to endshake is their timing and lock-up system is very precision. A few thousandths endshake can make a big difference in carry-up, light primer hits, barrel scraping the cylinder face, and cylinder lock-up. Some get so bad the cylinder will jump out of the clinder stop notch when fired.

S&W uses a very thin yoke tube for a bearing surface in all models. Even the N-frame has the same skinny tube as a smaller 38 K frame. The yoke tube mates with a softer surface inside the cylinder.

Compare that to the size of the Ruger and it is very telling....S&W should address this issue and virtually eliminate end shake from their guns....

I collect and shoot both Rugers and S&W's and enjoy them immensely. I just wish that S&W would belly up to the bar on the yoke tube, and be done with all the peening issues this one part takes....

Giz
 
As long as this thread is diverging into cast vs. forged/machined, several things both anecdotal and personal will be mentioned.

Already mentioned and quite true is the fact that cast parts can be stronger in certain applications, particularly shear loads, as castings lack stress risers caused by forging....Ruger bolts in their rifles are much less prone to sheared or cracked lugs for this reason.

Old Army cylinders are cast, and all other Ruger cylinders are not.

An acquaintance who once owned his own ammo company used an Old Model Blackhawk to test .357 loads, lightning-bolt loads, and several hundred thousand rounds later, the Blackhawk still worked just fine.

My personal objection to castings are the inconsistancies of the alloy caused by flow-enhancing additives for mold fill-out.....for instance, I actually rusted a stainless ROA by ignoring it for 2wks after firing Pyrodex, only hosing the gun down weekly with WD40.... in isolated spots, deep pitting fissures attacked weaker areas of the cast steel, whereas a barstock or forged piece would have shown just uniform browning/light pitting....

Both brands and type construction have their ups and downs, and personally I like them both, and own them both.
 
I've got 4 SWs and 2 rugers and love them all. But I'd like to say that all points previously discussed point to the fact that Rugers are better designed overall, to handle long term use and abuse. That means Ruger using a clean sheet of paper from the start, analysed the stresses and strains a gun is put through when fired, used the proper materials, specified the correct dimensions and came up with a better tool for the job of shooting the caliber the gun was specified for.

For me, Rugers are better engineered while Smiths have the better aesthetic design and feel. I think the bone of contention is really that the lockwork of the S&W is not capable of dealing with long term magnum stresses.

Ruger has benefited from the experience of Smith & Wesson. What I don't understand is why SW did not benefit from their more than 100 years experience and did not go back to the drawing board to solve their durability issues once and for all, with a permanent fix. I think all they've done was to tweak their ancient 19th century lockwork design to bring them up to 21st century use and I honestly think that is not good enough.

I have a Smith Wesson 686 and 586 that have loosened with a few thousand full house magnums. I am not going to subject my other newer 686 to the same abuse. It is too pretty for that. That is what the GP100 and Blackhawk are for.

So are Rugers really stronger than S&Ws? Model for model, yes. A 45 oz 6 inch GP100 is way stronger than a 44 oz 6 inch 686, out of proportion to the 1 ounce weight difference.
 
The basic design of S&W revolvers dates from pre-1900, way prior to magnum cartridges. The Redhawk, for one ex., was designed in the 1970s, specifically AROUND the .44 Mag cartridge.

Blued Ruger revolvers are almost entirely 4140 chrome-moly (excepting stainless steel lockwork parts). S&W revolvers in the past used softer alloys in the crane to make hand-fitting easier for assemblers.

S&W frames are single-shear with one wall supporting the breech face v. Rugers double-shear walls.

Etc., etc.

S&W did a fine job with the Endurance Package engineering changes to the N-frame...while retaining the characteristics we all love about their revolvers...but it's never going to be as strong as a Redhawk. Is S&W capable of starting today with a clean sheet of paper and creating a strong, modern DA revolver? Of course, but then in one sense it would no longer be a S&W, would it?
 
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