Are we overthinking all the "tactics" and "training"

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Rockwell1

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My level of "training" is minimal at best. I took an 8 hour, state mandated, NRA approved , pistol safety course. I've had martial arts training. The Army sent me through the MOUT sites at Ft. Lewis and Ft. Carson any number of times.And I pratcice good sight alignment, breathing and trigger control every time I go to the range.

That's about the extent of my "training". By the standards here pretty dismal I'm sure. I'm probably going to be the first casualty in any gun fight I'm ever in.

John Wesley Hardin didn't even know what the term "shutz haus" meant but at the age of 15 he was able to sucessfuly defend himself against an ex-slave named Madge with a cap and ball revolver while seating on a bucking,terrified horse. 21 is an absolute myth but young William Anatrim ( AKA Billy the Kid) did for at least 9 people in and around Lincoln & Fort Summner New Mexico, people who knew their way around a gun, I might add . Audie Murphy and Alvin York had minimal training and they seemed to do ok.

My point is that while some training may be desirable; is it really absolutely necessary that I become a "steely eyed missle man" just because I carry a concealed weapon?
 
I dont believe that the requirements for adequate self defense are all that high. If you simply know how to aim and pull the trigger, in the moment of fight or flight, anyone can do well enough to survive the fight and kill the bad guy but there is a good chance innocent folks can get hurt too. I believe that most folks spend countless hours training in order to handle guns so that the bad guy takes the round and there is no collateral damage. Another thing is that I love any training that you can get with a firearm because I love everything about guns and training time is fun time. Plus its another notch on my belt of training that I can throw in the face of antis who say gun toters are mindless barbarians.
 
Like anything else, it's capable of overstatement.

Basically, we all want to "get good" at survival and combat. We don't have to be so proficient that it dominates our entire lives, but for some of us, security stuff is involved at least a little bit in our work. No, not that we daily fight our way through an army of crazed zealot zombies, but situational awareness and a lot of other stuff keeps us out of scary situations from time to time, or, uncommonly, lets us slip out of them after they've developed or, on exceedingly rare occasions, actually fight our way out. It can happen to anyone, from a housewife taking her kids to the park to a night watchman confronted by an armed prowler. And it's not exactly ninja stuff. The "right" survival skill may be as simple as remembering which chunk of meat in the icebox is frozen solid enough to knock out your assailant when brought down on his head.
 
Are we overthinking all the "tactics" and "training"?

no.

is it really absolutely necessary that I become a "steely eyed missle man" ?


to steal a line from Lee Lapin's sig:

MINDSET - SKILLSET - TOOLSET - IN THAT ORDER!

that pretty much covers it, and explains the examples you gave and their success in the absence of training
 
Right out of highschool I got a job laying block in FLA (actually I started out as a hoddie but you get the idea) Anyway there was this old Mason named Bobby Muncie that used to tell me "Shoestring, you worry about doing it right. Speed will come."

I carried that advice with me and I believe now that if I practice the basics; sight alignment, breathing and trigger control the rest will take care of itself
 
No you don't NEED training. There are hundreds of examples of people who have sucessfully defended themselves with a firearm who have NEVER taken a tactical training course.

There are thousands of folks who have driven for decades and never taken drivers training/defensive driving/ice/etc courses. I put on thousands of miles before I was 16/drivers training and it was a waste of time.
I have taken more intense drivers training and it made me a safer/better driver.
99% of folks will do just fine without any tactical training. (unless in military/deployed in harms way *normally on land*, Law Enforcement, criminal element)
I can say I have not "needed " it BUT I feel it kept a person alive who I likely would have shot if I did not KNOW my abilities what danger I was in... I like to think I have been able to assist in teaching survival skills to some people who were going into sandbox as independent contractors who (IMO) were mentally NOT PREPARED. They could kick my butt in running/climbing, many physical areas. Running and gunning in a area where their might be a threat. My sister would likely do as well. (IMO they had been soldiers who did what they were told but didn't have a clue how to think/act for themselves)
Plus you get a HINT of how pressure will effect you. Those nice small groups at 50' at the indoor range will open up when you have to run and draw/shoot at varied distances on command. Having to watch 360 degrees around/multiple targets. Heck having others watch raises the stress to maybe 15% of a real situation.
 
A co worker was through boot camp. Finished infantry course and first day was in Korea. The sun went down on a hill with 305 men.

The chinese came.

The sunrise revealed a roll call of 6 effectives and still had the hill. The man did not tell me what was necessary to get through the night. But he used two words instead.

"Battlefield one oh one." fast is life, slow and stupid is dead.

And that was the end of it. It would have been very easy at any moment all that night for the Chinese to kill all on that hill and no one will know anything.

Dont over think the training. Just try to enjoy life and practice what you think is best. It will come natural to you when something does go down.

For me driving training in school was a waste. Now trucking training involved things like how to park so you dont get blocked in, how to protect your steer and perhaps how to shove a problem out of the way. The real world was life or death for me and I will say that one time my wife shouted "BIKER!!!" on a bicycle dead in front 160 feet and closing at 60 mph on a winding S with a lake to one side and a hill to the other.

All I remember about that event is watching my hands take hold of that wheel and forcing all of the weight into the opposing lanes to get around the guy and peeking in that mirrior on the right to see that he was 8 lifes lost-scared but still bicylcing along. Then I needed to recover the rig before we all went into the water.

The shakes hit 6 hours later. Followed by the puking.

Im pretty sure that rider hates all truckers now. And figured well.. if anyone was coming I would have gone into the lake and we would have to see how to get out a submurged cab.

But if my wife did not shout at that moment the next thing I would have mentally processed is a body going under the right wheels with the gore and metal flying. It would not be the first time Ive hit a animal but never ever a man.

Despite the really surreal sitaution presented to you by your senses of the danger, you have to decide absolutely quickly what needs to be done and then stay with it all the way through. It's not going to be all about you but maybe... just maybe everyone gets lucky and no one gets hurt.

Another time I simply stopped during a left turn. A man walked into my driver's door backwards. I said "Hello" non chalantly leaning on the window in a major city. He was absolutely convinced that he escaped death by truck that day. But he never knew that by walking backwards into danger, I had lots of time to simply park the thing and wait. =)
 
Are we over thinking all the "tactics" and "training"
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Yes.

Common sense should still play a vital role in staying safe.

Simple things, such as not going where trouble is in the first place. Preventative measures such as lighting, door locks, not advertising by words we speak, or the items we leave out for all to view.

Investigate & Verify should be something folks should just do along with using common sense.

i.e. A parent arrives home from work and their child is hiding behind that big, old, shrub, hedge, or tree and jumps out with "Boo! Did I scare you mommie/da-dee?"

No, do not scare the child filling their heads with boogeyman, instead wait until the child is at school ( wherever) and with your spouse see if an adult can hide where the child was.

When you remove it, or cut it down, just tell the kid you did so, because now the house and yard look better, and it makes keeping the yard up easier and faster, which means you have more time to play catch, or whatever.


Internet is a faster means of communication.
Some common sense and simple investigation and verification should apply.

i.e. Just because someone in Alaska keeps Arctic weather gear in the trunk of their car, does not mean someone living in the Desert needs the same gear in their vehicle trunk.

Software, not Hardware.

Before Internet, and even 911, folks just kept canned goods (both store bought and those home canned in mason jars), in case of emergency. Along with water, matches, Zippos, candles, oil lamps first aid kit...

Are we over thinking all the "tactics" and "training"
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No.


I am not suggesting one does not need to take instructions on firearm use, and other training discussed here in S&T, they do.

Just a lot of folks if they used some common sense, investigated and verified , and were brutally honest about it, would not find themselves in situations often seen posted as "what if" around here.

Communication is a key to staying safe as well.

i.e. If I am on the phone with someone, and Evil were to bust in right now, I could say a few words and these folks would know Evil is here.
BGs would never know I alerted those on the phone I am speaking with.

Furthermore, if I am speaking to a member of THR, I know darn well what the game plan is.
While some of our communication had been discussed, some has not, and just simple common sense would have some plans enacted real darn fast.

I am not wanting to find out how fast, still I betcha I would have some folks arrive real fast.
And if I were taken against my will, the area would have road blocks and areas canvased.

Not a practiced plan, just common sense.

Yes, I have met some THR members, and we have been out together. Others I have not met in person, instead maybe phone calls in addition to PMs and public forum posts.

Still, communication is a key, and common sense would signal us, about concerns with safety.

Are we over thinking all the "tactics" and "training"
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One has to be brutally honest in accessing themselves, their environments, and their Software and Hardware needs.
 
My level of "training" is minimal at best. I took an 8 hour, state mandated, NRA approved , pistol safety course. I've had martial arts training. The Army sent me through the MOUT sites at Ft. Lewis and Ft. Carson any number of times.And I practice good sight alignment, breathing and trigger control every time I go to the range.
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If you were in the Army then have been exposed to some stress inoculation training, even if it was only the confidence course in basic. That's more training then most people have.

John Wesley Hardin didn't even know what the term "shutz haus" meant but at the age of 15 he was able to successfully defend himself against an ex-slave named Madge with a cap and ball revolver while seating on a bucking,terrified horse. 21 is an absolute myth but young William Anatrim ( AKA Billy the Kid) did for at least 9 people in and around Lincoln & Fort Summner New Mexico, people who knew their way around a gun, I might add . Audie Murphy and Alvin York had minimal training and they seemed to do ok.
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They learned on the job so to speak. That wasn't unusual, people have been learning to fight on the job since the first man picked up a club or a rock. But that doesn't mean it's the most efficient way to learn something, and the methods of correcting errors can be be pretty severe. A properly planned and conducted training program can let you make your mistakes in a controlled environment where the consequences aren't likely to cause severe injury or worse. A lot of people faced the same challenges the gunfighters in your example did, and didn't survive.

My point is that while some training may be desirable; is it really absolutely necessary that I become a "steely eyed missle man" just because I carry a concealed weapon?
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What threat level do you face? Do you need to expend 50K+ rounds a year if you aren't assigned to a special operations task force kicking in doors of terrorist suspects? While it would be optimal, that level of training is beyond most of our resources even if the taxpayer is subsidizing it. Obviously you have to find some balance between what you can afford to expend in time and money and what your actual needs are. Many of us train because we enjoy it. Or because our jobs require it. The thing is, that a gunfight is serious business and while most people even if they are professionals will never experience one, if one comes upon you, you want to be as proficient as you can be. More sweat in training means less blood in battle. Even if there is only one battle in your lifetime, you want to have every advantage.

Can you over do it? Obviously most private citizens have no real need to take a carbine course. The chances of your average person ever jocking up in body armor and load bearing equipment and engaging the bad guys with his AR or AK is pretty slim. But I don't begrudge those who do take those classes.

It's a personal choice, one that can have serious consequences if you make the wrong one. Then again you can put all kinds of time and money into training and never have to touch your weapon in a real situation. I no longer work in a job where going armed into harms way is my duty. But I still train and I still train others.
 
What threat level do you face?
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I gave some thought to my risk level when I chose to start carrying a handgun. I am a:

43 Y/O C male
Regular Church attendee
Work days in a low risk occupation (Medical administration)
In a secure area of the hospital (HIPPA)
Live in low crime middle class neighborhood
No known criminal associates
No known enemies (serious enemies that would try to kill me)
10 Y/O car not known as a target for theft
Not known as a firearms owner
Not known to carry large sums of cash or credit cards
Not a night owl
Avoid any type of intoxicants
Avoid bling
Avoid dressing in logoed, loud clothing or expensive clothing.

What I do to alleviate what risk I do have

Drive with the doors locked and radio down
Scan intersections that I have to stop at
Park in the secure parking lot at work
Don’t frequent bars
Home well lit
Alarms
Dogs
Shrubbery cut back around the house
Don’t answer door to unexpected guests or strangers

Please note only one reference to firearms

I’d access my biggest risk as random road rage or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time
 
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I dont have much a threat level. Really.

BUT... going into certain parts of Little Rock? At NIGHT? That would be very stupid of me indeed. The threat posture increases dramatically.

Unfortunately I have had to go downtown at night for the wife to get care. And believe me, it's not easy.

I have had gasoline slipped out of cars until I capped em with locking caps recently.

Now I know there be things afoot in our area at night but as long they dont breach the dwelling, it's all good.
 
Ya I think some people go overboard, but who knows they might see something an oblivious person would miss themselves. If you enjoy preparation, then go for it. As long as the polar opposites can have some respect for each other. Still, common sense rules the day, for the most part...
 
Rockwell,
You obviously are a thinking conscientious man. The only thing I can add to all of the above is to develop your mindset and awareness, not a steely eyed iceman, but an aware, questioning, adult who recognises the things around him for what the might mean to you and yours safety.
You notice i didnt mention gun Im talking brain here.
Think layered defense, at home or out and about.
Also know your state laws.
Be aware
train
aviod
remove
evade or escape
but if forced to fight win.

Just some food for thought
 
Of course folks don't need training. They could just get lucky. Some do. Of course, some do not. Unless you have a chance to accumulate experience, then training is a good way to receive some of the appropriate insights and skills development that may help you through a bad situation. It will open your eyes to new ideas and possibilities.

I will say this, however, training is not the be all to end all. You have to take what you learn from training and practice it, think about it, and then have it ready should you need to apply it.

I took a class in Dallas with a Fellow who attended numerous gun schools and self defense classes, but failed the shooter qualification. Come to find out, the only times he got out to shoot and work on self defense was when he took these classes, once or twice a year. The rest of the time, he was so busy with work and family that he could/did not practice. All those classes and all that money was for naught given his retained abilities.
 
A good friend of mine, one of the most dedicated and oldest motorcyclists I know, has a saying: "Dress for the slide, not the ride." Is that overthinking things?

I dunno.

lpl
 
Lee Lapin: " "Dress for the slide, not the ride.""

Love that. Surprised I've never heard it. Having dropped and rolled, once (right in the Hooter's parking lot), I quite agree. Though I'd append, in the words of an old friend from Minnesota watching some California news, "You can't dress for earthquakes."
 
Audie Murphy and Alvin York had minimal training and they seemed to do ok
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I'm not sure about "minimal". The action that won York his decorations was 18 months after being in the army and being in combat, and he had risen to corporal at the time. He was an excellent shot, and no telling how much skill he brought from his youth.

Murphy entered the army as a crack shot, recieved not only basic training but also advance infantry training. Murphy went through alot of combat was also a corporal before he began racking up his numerous personal commendations. He was a sergeant when he won his first DSC.

"Training" is not simply to impart skills. Training programs your responses, allows you to keep your head. Sometimes training programs bad responses, such as when cops trained for revolvers shoot six rounds and stop, even though their new semi-auto holds more than six rounds, or folks that are heavily trained to "double-tap" a badguy stop as they expect the badguy to fall down after being hit twice.

It is well known that panic will get you killed. Both York and Murphy kept sufficient calm to think and react, allowing them to succeed and survive. York kept a diary, and he documents that he was "sharp shooting" at the German machine gunners, while the German gunners fired at York, striking the ground all around him.

(iirc) Wyatt Earp spoke of gunfighting and that one had to "Take your time as fast as you can."

So each person will need various level of training, to allow them to keep calm in a life threatening situation. If you think you need more, if you're not confident in your skills, or you're not sure you could fight in the first place, you probably need more training. Only you can really tell.

LD
 
I imagine good training will only make you better at a task. IMO, it's up to you to decide if it's worth it.
 
Training is great. Just make sure if you forgo it that you at least have the mental preparation and the weapon familiarization to deal with a threat.
 
I train and think through various scenarios because its fun to me. I did it as a kid, I did it in the military, I do it in martial arts and with various weapons. I don't ever really expect to use 1% of my training again (as a civilian now). But its still fun : )
 
70+ year old women, using a gun that's been in a drawer for thirty years, frequently fend off the barbarian hordes.

All we're doing by training is: 1) learning the legal requirements for self-defense, 2) increasing the odds of success by just a few percentage points (see Dangerous Old Ladies, above) and 3) working on our mindset.

#1 is really, really important and too many people don't spend enough time in this area.
 
I'm with mudriver on this one. I practice because I enjoy it.

Once you've become proficient with your defensive tools I don't think it takes a whole lot of practice to stay that way. This is when I start getting creative.

I like to think up new ways to practice, new drills to run, new grips, new draws, new stances.

I like to practice many different ways because you may find yourself in a defensive situation you haven't practiced for. The more live fire practice and unusual drills you can try, the more likely you are to be able to adapt to whatever situation you're forced to deal with.

The bottom line for me is to have fun. In doing so I've become very familiar with my carry weapons. That's a big benefit, but it's not the main reason I practice so much.

Stay safe and enjoy yourself.
 
I think it's somewhat telling that the people with the least training tend to be the ones who spout off about old ladies or that shooting someone is really a simple thing & the people who train are exactly the opposite. That should tell you something.

Being able to stand tall & shoot a tight group at 10 paces doesn't mean a thing when some Thug4Life (TM) wraps an arm around your shoulders, stuffs a pistol in you special place & starts whispering sweet nothings about your money or your manhood.

How do you deal with unknown contacts? Can you shoot while moving? One handed- support side at that? How's your use of cover? How do you keep your gun when the fight is just hands on & you're wrasslin on the ground? How do you deal with someone trying to impersonate a Singer sewing machine? What does a criminal interview look like? What are some physical cues that the interview isn't going your way?

Laziness, ego & apathy drive the "I have all the training I need" attitude. If that is your attitude your mindset sucks & you're relying on luck. Suck it up & do the work.
 
YammyMonkey
Maybe you misunderstand? (or maybe I did) I read that folks were saying that you don't HAVE to take a tactical class for pistol, then one for rifle, then a shotgun class every other month in increasing levels to have a snowballs chance of surviving if put in deadly force situation.
There are some local folks who hunt deer every yr with shotgun. They shoot clay birds/hunt phesants/duck/etc. They also keep that thing loaded in house. Anyone trying to break in (and gets past the dogs) likely won't do too well against them. ($20 says the wife gets first shot off) They have (far as I know) never taken a tactical class. I doubt anthing over firearms safety/DNR. Training is eye opening. I learned a lot and want to take more.. It still is not as vital as the ability/willingness to take action when needed. Even to point of shooting a attacker.

Decades ago I got into a form of Karate. It was one of the slower to advance types. I moved away after @2yrs and was gone for @6 yrs During which time I did minimal training in that area.
Back home I went to check in with old school/see who was there. There were two people who started about same time I did. One had hit it hard the entire time and advanced in rank/skill. Over couse of night the instructor had me spar with him. The instructor encouraged me to push it up a notch. I beat him easily. Not because of skill or speed. (he was faster/better trained) but because I was willing to block and counter hard. (almost take a hit) IMO in a street fight he would get his butt kicked.
 
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