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ARs and optics

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N3rday

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I was just wondering, since I'm not familiar much with the AR line...

Can you put scopes on top of the carry handle, or would you NEED a rail system and a detachable handle? I'm thinking smaller optics like Aimpoint-type stuff, not anything big. I'm new to the whole optics thing, so bear with me:uh oh:

I was just wondering, because it seems like all the ARs with rails lack iron sights and just have a flat top which looks hideously ugly.
 
Yes, you can mount optics on top of the carry handle. Many shooters don't care for this setup as it's difficult if not impossible to get a good cheek weld. If you go with a flat top, I'd recommend you also install BUIS.

Denny
 
Yes you can mount optics on the carry handle. You can also get a detachable carry handle to go on the flattop and iron sights to go on the flattop.

HTH
Jeff
 
BUIS?:confused:

Also, wouldn't having a detachable carry handle, and removing it to put optics on, be completely worthless since the front sight would block the view anyway? isn't the front sight attached along with the entire handguard?
 
BUIS = Back Up Iron Sight, ala the ARMS #40 or other similar design. Designed to stay out oh the way when using optis, but be available to use in conjuntion with front sight when the optic is not needed/inoperative.

And no, the front sight will not interfer with a standard magnifying type scope as the focal point will be well beyond the front sight tower- you'll never even see it.

The front sight is attached to the barrel; the handguards are removable without removing the front sight.

edit; darn...2 minutes too slow...:D
 
If you don't already own an AR, let me give you a piece of advice: buy a flat top. It is FAR more versitile.

The AR and its sighting systems are based around the fact that the stock is in-line with the barrel. In other words, there is no drop in the stock. So, you need the sights elevated so they fall in line with your eye when your head is heald in a normal position. Note that on a non-flat top AR, the rear sight is on top of the carry handle and the front sight is elevated way up off the barrel. If they weren't elevated, you would have to turn your head 90 degrees to get your eye that far down on the stock.
Yes, you can mount optics on top of the carry handle. As was mentioned, the problem is that your cheek will not be on the stock like it is supposed to be in because the optic is so far up in the air.
There are a number of solutions to this that involve the use of a rail to put the optic out in front of the carry handle.
Mounting an optic on a flat top is much easier. Many optics such as the Eotech and some ACOGs come ready to clamp right on your flat top rail. Others require mounts and or rings, but they place the optic right where it should be instead of way up in the air.
Everyone that I know that has a flat top AR15 has BUIS or back up iron sights. Usually they have the standard front sight and a rear sight that clamps onto the flat top rail. These BUIS usually fold down when not in use so you don't snag them on anything or possibly break them off since again, they have to be up high off the receiver.
The sights are not an issue when using optics. You don't see the front sight tower at all whether you are using a scope or a red dot optic.

One more thing about the flat top. You can put a carry handle on it. It looks just like a non-flat top AR15. Even if you buy an AR and never intend to use optical sights or any accessories that require a rail, the rail is always there if you change your mind. In the mean time, you have a carry handle installed on the rail and never know the difference. The opposite is not true. If you buy an AR with a carry handle, you are stuck with it and can't do a damn thing about it.
 
Hmm...as I review the AR line I see a few setups:

1: Attached carry handle and front sight.

2. Detachable carry handle and front sight.

3: flat top, but it seems theres a smaller rail near the end to put a detachable front sight on? Looking at the Olympic Arms PCR8 target match, PCR-16, Vulcan Arms AR flattop...

4: rails but no front sight, nor a place to put one? This refers to the DPMS .308s, low pros, and the Bushy 'carbon' rifles. I guess for those tricked out sniper setups?

So...I guess my choices are cut down to 2 and 3...but it still seems like you would have to see the front sight through an optic...its kinda sticking up, I don't see how you could miss it...especially with an optic that doesn't zoom like the aimpoints. Hrm...I'll take your word for it...


So, besides that, what brands are good? Looking at Bushy, Vulcan, DPMS, Olympic Arms. Reliability is a major issue, and I would prefer some sort of you-can't-screw-me-over warranty.
 
The part of the rifle where the front sight tower is, is called the gas block. This is where gas is bled off to be used to run the bolt. You can get a gas block that has a rail or rails on it, to mount a folding front sight. I have a four rail gas blcok on my .458 Socom upper. I have a fold down front sight installed and can also use the bottom rail to mount a bipod. I could also use one of the side rails to mount a light if I wanted to. Personally, I think it is a totaly unnessessary expense, but it is avialable if that pulls your chain.

Really, you don't see the front sight at all unless you focus your eyes so that you do. For example, my primary AR has an Aimpoint optical sight on it. The correct way to use the optic is to have both eyes open. A red dot appears on the target. it is an optical illusion. I also have BUIS in the form of an ARMS #40. I can use the iron sights and the red dot from the optic appears right on top of my front sight. But, in this case I am purposely looking through the tube of the optic AT the sights. If you arn't looking at the sights, they just don't seem to be there; another optical illusion.

Your last question is a very individual choice and will probably generate some heated response. I own AR15s made by Bushmaster, Colt, Olympic Arms, and Cavalry Arms. My choice would be Bushmaster with Colt coming in a close second. I wouldn't buy anything else. I think Bushmaster makes the best garden variety AR.
 
Hrm...that particular subject would be a new thread....pick my AR brand!
Actually Bushy is a bit too pricey for me...Olympic Arms seems to be a bit cheaper

What brands have you had reliability problems with, if any, and what brands should I avoid at all costs?

Oh, and how much more accurate will the aimpoint make your rifle, compared to an actual scope? Just wondering, I'm probably not gonna invest in a good scope anytime soon unless I somehow win the lottery.
 
Do some research (just as you are doing now), and buy whatever AR you are comfortable with. But I have a piece of advice: Don't settle for something just because you don't have the money at that instant. Good things come to those who wait. If it requres you to do a little saving, it will be all the sweeter when you finally get it. This board is filled with people asking questions about the cheapest this and the cheapest that. Not as many people seem to be interested in the best of this and the best of that (and the best doesn't nessessarily have to cost the most). I don't see any reason to pay more than is nessessary, but I have no problem paying for quality. Especially with guns. You might someday have to count on a gun to save your life. Would you rather depend on the cheapest or the best in that senario ? There are certain features that have been proven over the last 40 years to increse reliability in the AR15/M16 series of weapons. One such feature is a chrome lined barrel and chamber. Anyone who tells you differently hasn't researched the matter in the least. Does the rifle you are looking at have that or is that one of the short cuts they took ?
Know this: Bushmaster makes and sells FAR more AR15s than any other company. They make several times their closest competitor and make more than most companies combined. There is a reason for that.
 
No mention of the purpose for the rifle was made, but having mounted my optics on both the flat-top and carrying handle, I will share my perspective.

I currently use a see through mount from ARMS to mount my Aimpoint to my carrying handle. I like the set up better than mounting it directly on the flat-top. Instead of using a traditional cheek-weld, you use a chin weld. It works just as well. One of my co-workers has an EOTech mounted in the same fashion. We use a 200-meter zero on the optics and a 300-meter zero the irons irons.

I find that the optic is slightly faster to acquire when the rifle is mounted from the low ready in this configuation. Also, in the event I need to use iron sights, I do not need to do anything other than drop my head and acquire a cheek weld.

There are a couple of drawbacks to this set up. First, the weapon is significantly taller, and that takes some getting used to. Also, close in the offset changes from 2.5" to around 4". The only time either of us had an issue was with head shots in the 7-10 meter range after we switched to the new set up. This was easily remedied with a little extra range time.

As with many things, it boils down to personal preference. Several people I work with hate this set up. I would recommend you "try before you buy" if possible.
 
The price difference between the Olys and Bushys is usually around $100 or less. It's money well spent.
 
Nobody mentioned Rock River. They make some real nice ARs. The only drawback is they don't have a chrome lined barrel except for one M4 carbine.

To save a little money and still get a nice quality AR, you could get a Bushmaster upper and a Rock River lower. Rock Rivers are supposed to have one of the best triggers. I know mine has a real smooth, crisp feel.
 
But if I assembled the rifle would there be a warranty for it? Doesn't Bushy have a lifetime warranty with it? That would be my only problem with assembling my own AR, besides the fact that I would want someone...well...more professional to put my gun together.

I checked both the Bushy and Olympic arms websites, and the only ones that were flattops with a front sight were the tricked out $935 bushy 16" SIR system upper, the $910 modular carbine upper, and the 14.5"heavy AK model.

All the others had either carry handles permanently attached or 'milled front sight bases'.

I would definitely prefer the original sights fixed to the barrel, which make the AR look cool. I don't much like the look of the flip up front sights at all.
Oh, and they're $100, too:cuss:

Um...yeah...any advice? Where can i find those flattop uppers with normal front sights?

I'm so confused!:confused: <-----me
 
Uhh, not the ones on their website, besides the 3 I mentioned...
unless I missed a section?
 
Bushmaster refers to their flattop rifles as the A3 model. If you look on their website most of the uppers have the option to be an A3. Doublecheck the website.
 
Double-checked website for A3 options...YES!

...how did I miss that?
My bad...


edited to add: OUCH...that extra $100 brings up just about every Bushy upper to the 650 mark...
 
But if I assembled the rifle would there be a warranty for it? Doesn't Bushy have a lifetime warranty with it?
Click to expand...
Rock River has a lifetime warrantee on complete rifles, assembled uppers or assembled lowers. I don't know about Bushmaster, but I find it hard to believe they wouldn't warantee a factory assembled upper or lower. However, I only see a one year warantee for Bushmaster's complete firearms on their website.

That would be my only problem with assembling my own AR, besides the fact that I would want someone...well...more professional to put my gun together.
Click to expand...
If you can competently change the batteries in a flashlight, you could put an assembled AR upper and an assembled AR lower together! :D
 
Went to the Rock River Arms site...HEAVEN!!!
I LOVE their site, they make it so easy to see exactly what you want.

I have made my preliminary plans:

CAR A4 flattop upper with mid-length green handguards and chrome moly (whatever moly means) barrel,

six position green collapsible CAR buttstock (tactical buttstock, no less!:rolleyes:). This is, of course, assuming the ban sunsets in September (which it better!), conveniently 3 months b4 my 18th birthday ;)

Not sure about the lower, need to shop around more, but unless I find some other good lower that comes with a lifetime warranty, it will probably end up being RRA.

Which leads me to this question: Do you think the extra $20 is worth it for the Hogue AR grips?:D
 
N3rday,
If you're looking for a chrome lined barrel, don't buy one that just says chrome moly which is the type of steel used. A lot of people like a chrome lined barrel for ease of maintenance.

Jeff
 
Wow, Adco has some inexpensive parts! $370 for a complete flattop upper, very nice :D

Also, I know nothing about stainless versus chrome moly, as I am a n00b:uhoh:

Nor, really, do I know much about barrel twists, other than they have a bearing on accuracy...

edited to add: nor do I know what the optional gas block is for...
 
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