attacker with gun vs attacker with edged weapon

[USAF_Vet]

It has been shown that an agile knife man can cover 20 ft or more before the average CCW person can draw and fire. Whether it is a knife man or gunman there is a technique called getting off the X in which you move out of the line of fire or knife attack.

I've actually trained for this. Had a guy stand about 10 meters away from a group of us who were listening to a tactics lesson. He would randomly charge with a fake knife to see who could draw and "fire" (all weapons were either fake, or zip tied open and cleared) before he got to them. If he tagged you before you could draw and say "bang", odds were he inflicted a serious wound. Most of us were killed or wounded in the scenario, even knowing he would be coming for us. So with even the mental preparation we all had, and even keeping an eye on him during the lecture, we were mostly all taken out.

A couple people were able to get off the "X" but very few were able to "bang" before he was able to correct course and tag us. And that was at 10 meters, visibly brandishing his weapon. If he was at 15 meters, most of us had an chance to draw, fire and evade. Not too many knife attackers are going to make their intentions known at that range.

 

[jahwarrior]

Assailant with gun: shoot center mass or head shot
Assailant with edge weapon: shoot lower abdomen and pelvis to immobilize.

Ayoob, my instructors, and a lot of additional research suggest there may be some validity to this, but I honestly have no clue if I would be able to process them differently and react properly in a fight or flight scenario.

What do you guys think?

i think an assailant with any kind of weapon is getting shot the same way, regardless if he was holding an RPG or a pair of scissors. that is, he's getting shot until he stops being a threat. that usually involves shooting the COM, repeatedly.

 

[Loosedhorse]

that usually involves shooting the COM, repeatedly.

We've probably all heard the joke that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly, hoping for a different result. Think body armor, think Mozambique: if two shots COM doesn't do it, I think maybe we should consider a different aiming point.

 

[daytodaze]

I guess my op was really vague. A man charging you with a knife. Vs a man pointing a gun at you. I've had a knife pulled on me several times, I was never armed though, and moat of them were merely for intimidation. I've only had a gun pulled on me once (the policía in Mexico... It's a good story, but not now). I imagine that a robbery at knife point is more common.

To add another element, a guy is standing in front of you with a weapon, you have made the choice that his attack is imminent. First step is to redirect his weapon, right?

 

[SG1]

First step is to redirect his weapon, right?

In martial arts we are taught that the best block is to not be there at all (if possible of course). I would say, given this situation, it would still be better to try and get off the "X" and create as much space and time as possible in order to react.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

First step is to redirect his weapon, right?

The first step is to MOVE off the line of attack. It gives you the initiative. It resets the attacker's OODA Loop and impairs his ability to react effectively in time. AFTER you've stepped off THEN you draw and fire. Move first for protection, then quickly draw and fire to stop the attack.

 

[Loosedhorse]

^+1

moat of them were merely for intimidation

I think that, ASAP, I would inform the knife wielder that he has in fact succeeded in intimidating me--by drawing my gun, pointing it at him, and telling him to drop his weapon (if I felt that op, ab, and jeop were all there).

 

[mortablunt]

COM, always. Adrenaline can make a man seriously ignore some horrific pain; if your foe is truly in fight to the death mode, then shooting his hip with a pistol won't down him.

 

[Loosedhorse]

a man seriously ignore some horrific pain

The "stop" resulting from a broken femur is not based on pain. That leg simply cannot support weight. The aiming point may seem more pelvis than hip.

 

[harrygunner]

Fighting a person who has a knife is outside the imagination of most. It certainly was outside mine. I've experienced the 'Tueller Drill', defending myself with a Simunitions gun.

Out of the dozen or so in the class, only one gentleman stopped the threat without getting "cut". Then we were all taught what that one man knew. And it's not about shot placement.

If the BG with a knife starts out within feet of you, you'll need to grapple with him and control the knife. Your gun won't help.

 

[MachIVshooter]

We've probably all heard the joke that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly, hoping for a different result. Think body armor, think Mozambique: if two shots COM doesn't do it, I think maybe we should consider a different aiming point.

That's a saying I've always held to be true, but there are certainly exceptions to the rule.

You don't hit a 16P nail once and expect it to sink all the way, and you don't take one swipe across a board with a saw, expecting it to fall in half. And in that context, you don't change tools or techniques to get the job done; You hammer the nail til it's in, and you saw back and forth til the board is cut.

I would take the same approach with an attacker; Shoot him til he ceases the attack, wherever you can hit him.

 

[hirundo82]

1) I train using the failure to stop drill--COM shots to the torso, then CNS if necessary. In the heat of a life-treatening situation, I wouldn't want to be trying to decide where to shoot the assailant based on what weapon he has. Thinking makes you slow.

2) In my opinion, people overestimate the utility of a pelvis shot for a quick stop. There's a lot of redundancy in the pelvis, and you would have to hit one of a few small areas to destbilize it (acetabulum/femoral head or pubic symphysis). That's with the degradation of accuracy you're going to be experiencing in a deadly situation. Very difficult with a handgun. Might be a valid option with a shotgun, but again why not the torso instead (with the rare exception of an assailant in body armor).

3) I'm not a big fan of the Tueller drill for the fact that, short of a shot that interrupts the brain or spinal cord, there's physiologically no such thing as an immediate stop. You have probably 10 seconds of useful consciousness even with your heart completely stopped--many hunters have stories of deer that run 50 or 100 yards after a shot directly to the heart with a high-powered rifle. An attacker at full run within 7 yards likely won't even realize he's been shot until after he stabs you.

 

[hso]

Movement is critical in situations like this. Train to MOVE off the line of movement of your attacker. Do not move in a straight line away from your attacker since you cannot backpedal as fast as they can run up on you.

I've done this exercise with local LEOs with me being the attacker. Even with my coming around an obstacle any officer that stood his ground trying to draw his weapon and "stand and deliver" never had a chance. They never got their weapon on target before they were so carved up and stabbed repeatedly that the encounter was called. Those that moved in line trying to backpedal and draw had little better luck. Only those officers that moved laterally and who defended while drawing had any success at surviving the attack. These were all officers that had graduated the academy and who had time on the job.

The magic boomstick will not save you from a knife attack if you don't add some realistic movement and defensive techniques to your training.

 

[tepin]

As if there wasn't enough to remember... Keep in mind that some semi-autos won't fire when out-of-battery so avoid contact shots.

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2007/23Aug07.html
...A second officer entered bathroom moments behind the first. Seeing what was going on, he jammed his own service pistol (G22) into the side of the suspect 's head and immediately attempted to fire. The pistol did not fire, because the slide was pushed out of battery far enough to engage the disconnector. The astonished officer, not understanding why his pistol would not fire, abandoned efforts to shoot the suspect, and, using his pistol as a club, savagely beat the suspect's head until the suspect, by then pleading for the beating to stop, relinquished control of his own pistol and surrendered.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Move out of the way and shoot till they drop.