shotgunjoel
Member
I would much prefer that both of us are alive, and that I may to go court for holding him.
Attempted break in thwarted
- Thread starter Army of Don
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I would much prefer that both of us are alive, and that I may to go court for holding him.
Army of Don
Member
I think we can all agree on this lesson learned:
If someone knocks on your door at an odd hour, verbally challenge them through the door. Stand to one side and do not open the door. This challenge should defuse most situations. However, have a loaded firearm in hand in case things go sideways.
Local laws and personal ethics/morals/experiences seem to diverge on how to handle encountering someone in the process of breaking into your home and the decision to use deadly force. I've posted my thoughts and others have provided informative feedback. Rather than debate it ad infinitum, at this point perhaps we'll all agree to evaluate how such a scenario like I encountered today might evolve in your own personal situations and then review our own home defense plans as needed.
Take care, all. Hopefully tomorrow will get off to a better start for me!
If someone knocks on your door at an odd hour, verbally challenge them through the door. Stand to one side and do not open the door. This challenge should defuse most situations. However, have a loaded firearm in hand in case things go sideways.
Local laws and personal ethics/morals/experiences seem to diverge on how to handle encountering someone in the process of breaking into your home and the decision to use deadly force. I've posted my thoughts and others have provided informative feedback. Rather than debate it ad infinitum, at this point perhaps we'll all agree to evaluate how such a scenario like I encountered today might evolve in your own personal situations and then review our own home defense plans as needed.
Take care, all. Hopefully tomorrow will get off to a better start for me!
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
The problem is that you may not get that option. Taking a "prisoner" is an extremely dangerous thing to do. You're putting your own life in greater danger by attempting to capture and hold someone it seems to me.
But if that's what you think is best then that is your choice.
At the very least I'd look into the local laws regarding citizens arrest to try to avoid a lawsuit later.
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Army of Don, we all have our own opinions and ways of doing things -- for lack of a better word, the cliched "tactics" -- regarding "self protection," etc.
In my opinion, had I been in your situation, the instant I picked up my shotgun, I'd have chambered a round. I believe it would be placing myself at a severe disadvantage to try and meet a possible deadly threat with an empty chamber.
Under extreme stress, things can go wrong. If a thug were to act quickly, he might be able to jump you before you had the ability to fully chamber a round and fire. As the old saying goes, "Action beats reaction every time."
Just the thoughts of someone who doesn't believe in ever giving a bad guy an advantage.
You did a good job, nevertheless. Good luck.
L.W.
In my opinion, had I been in your situation, the instant I picked up my shotgun, I'd have chambered a round. I believe it would be placing myself at a severe disadvantage to try and meet a possible deadly threat with an empty chamber.
Under extreme stress, things can go wrong. If a thug were to act quickly, he might be able to jump you before you had the ability to fully chamber a round and fire. As the old saying goes, "Action beats reaction every time."
Just the thoughts of someone who doesn't believe in ever giving a bad guy an advantage.
You did a good job, nevertheless. Good luck.
L.W.
Yes, yes indeed. You could be (1) overcome by the perp; (2) shot by a first responder; or (3) ambushed by one or more accomplices. All of those things do happen. And then there are the dangers inherent in the aftermath.
Those include the little problem of liability. In making a citizen's arrest, you have all of the liability that the police department has. You can be sued for use of excessive force (there's a criminal aspect that, also), and you are potentially liable for any injuries or problems the perp may suffer starting after you effect the arrest. However, unlike a sworn officer, you are not indemnified by the community against the civil liability. You are on your own.
The dangers are physical, criminal, and civil, and each can be overwhelmingly severe, and they can impact you in combination. There's a whole lot to lose indeed, and when you stop to think about it, there's very little to gain.
A citizen contemplating effecting an arrest lacks training, back-up, another partner to assist, direct communication with a dispatcher, approved policies to follow and to point to afterwards, and as mentioned above, indemnification.
Frankly, I cannot understand why anyone in his right mind who understands what he could be getting into would even consider trying to trying to hold perp.
AKElroy
Member
Particularly when the perp is EXTREMELY unlikely to spend any time in prison for a property crime EVEN IF you are able to keep him subdued & compliant until the arrest.
As for my house, getting them to LEAVE is my only priority. As stated earlier, the method of that departure is completely up to them.
Nice job Don.
I think the important thing was you were aware of what was going on and had taken steps to protect your self. (Even if others would have taken different steps.)
Also I admire your (refreshing) point of view (along with Balog) about shooting someone as the last resort. Nice not to hear the ol forum machismo about taking a life.
Good stuff.
I think the important thing was you were aware of what was going on and had taken steps to protect your self. (Even if others would have taken different steps.)
Also I admire your (refreshing) point of view (along with Balog) about shooting someone as the last resort. Nice not to hear the ol forum machismo about taking a life.
Good stuff.
If the potential-perp is for sure still outside the house, I could see hitting an outdoor floodlights switch to let him know he's been made (casa-Les has both a bedroom switch and a livingroom switch that lights-up the perimeter like the spaceship on Close Encounters), but from just one experience with this scenario, I'm very reluctant to make a peep, much less "rack-a-slide" or start hollerin' (and give up my location) if I think a home-invasion may be in-process. Maybe I'm thinking wrongly (?)
Les
Les
bigfatdave
Member
Good job, Army of Don!
Just managing the "DON'T PANIC" and "have a gun" steps mattered a whole lot more than the exact chambering or status of the gun, or exactly when/how to challenge an intruder.
I hope that I can maintain that level of calm rationality if I ever find myself in the situation some scumbag put you into.
wrs840, that's often not possible in an apartment, landlords and property managers tend to get testy when you start re-wiring and bolting lights on outside.
Just managing the "DON'T PANIC" and "have a gun" steps mattered a whole lot more than the exact chambering or status of the gun, or exactly when/how to challenge an intruder.
I hope that I can maintain that level of calm rationality if I ever find myself in the situation some scumbag put you into.
wrs840, that's often not possible in an apartment, landlords and property managers tend to get testy when you start re-wiring and bolting lights on outside.
03Shadowbob
Member
First off, if you can't always have your home defense firearm always loaded and ready to rock, please chamber a round before you do anything or try to approach someone breaking in your home.
Secondly, in your specific scenario, the BG would have been hit with 180 lumens coming from under the barrel of my shotgun. What he decides to do next will determine my course of action. The only warning he gets is the flashlight. No verbal warning.
Lastly, #4 shot is plenty to take out a BG.
Secondly, in your specific scenario, the BG would have been hit with 180 lumens coming from under the barrel of my shotgun. What he decides to do next will determine my course of action. The only warning he gets is the flashlight. No verbal warning.
Lastly, #4 shot is plenty to take out a BG.
Army of Don
Member
A couple quick followup replies...
1. I store my shotgun with 5 in the tube but none chambered and the safety off. Prior to this event, the intent was to use that "click-clack" of the shell being chambered as the absolute last warning. Having had 36 hours and some great comments on this thread to consider it all, I think I shall continue storing my shotgun without a round in the chamber for safety reasons, BUT, if faced with an intruder again, I will chamber a round before engaging to minimize the risk of technical issues.
2. The "flip on the porch light" idea is a good one but not practical in my current living situation. The porch light switch is directly next to the patio door; I'd have been standing 2 feet away from the perp to do that.
3. I, too, have grown tired of the "internet tough guy" schtick. I have no reservations about admitting that I was scared, not just of what he might do to me but also of what I might have had to do to him. It's not a scenario I care to repeat... but I'll be ready if they come back.
1. I store my shotgun with 5 in the tube but none chambered and the safety off. Prior to this event, the intent was to use that "click-clack" of the shell being chambered as the absolute last warning. Having had 36 hours and some great comments on this thread to consider it all, I think I shall continue storing my shotgun without a round in the chamber for safety reasons, BUT, if faced with an intruder again, I will chamber a round before engaging to minimize the risk of technical issues.
2. The "flip on the porch light" idea is a good one but not practical in my current living situation. The porch light switch is directly next to the patio door; I'd have been standing 2 feet away from the perp to do that.
3. I, too, have grown tired of the "internet tough guy" schtick. I have no reservations about admitting that I was scared, not just of what he might do to me but also of what I might have had to do to him. It's not a scenario I care to repeat... but I'll be ready if they come back.
AKElroy
Member
Fear is not something you should feel a need to "admit". Anyone would have been afraid in that situation; it is a tool the good Lord gave us to prepare our bodies for a fight. I agree with an earlier post that you kept your head, had a gun, and were ready to defend yourself. No one got hurt, everyone walked away; in the end that has to be considered a successful encounter.
As for any comments I and others have offered, it was not an attempt to correct or criticize, I took your original post to heart & offered feedback you were soliciting.
You did a good job.
sonier
Member
you did the right thing don, calling 911 gave the operator a recording. you told her what was happening and im sure they could here glass breaking and figure things out.
my opinions on what i wouldve done.
i wouldve put my self in a room ro spot too where i have a extreme advantage of not getting ganged up on people. if he wouldve came in view i thing buckshot wouldve worked. all this would be on a recording on 911 and yous hould be in the safe. he broke in your house and your life was being threatned.
regardless YOU DID THE RIGHT THING! you were not injured you called police and you protected yourself.
my opinions on what i wouldve done.
i wouldve put my self in a room ro spot too where i have a extreme advantage of not getting ganged up on people. if he wouldve came in view i thing buckshot wouldve worked. all this would be on a recording on 911 and yous hould be in the safe. he broke in your house and your life was being threatned.
regardless YOU DID THE RIGHT THING! you were not injured you called police and you protected yourself.
I think that in a situation such as this, it is important to let the burglar know that the apartment/home/etc. that he thought was unoccupied was, in fact, not. This can be done either verbally or by turning on a light. If he made an attempt to determine this, as he apparently did in this case, he would, most likely, leave at this point. You do not, however, inform him that you are armed. That gives up an edge that you would otherwise have if he is willing to continue anyway. If he continues to enter, knowing the home is occupied, then I feel deadly force is warranted. I'm certain that here (KY) you are on secure legal footing at this point as well.
NMGonzo
Member
well done
no one died
no one died
mgkdrgn
Member
AKElroy
Member
None I am aware of. However, even with castle doctrine, his surviving family may pursue action for wrongful death / excessive force. In Texas, that would be a tough case for them to win, but legal bills will still add up. That is why it would be prudent to be able to demonstrate some attempt to warn off the attack, either by turning on exterior lights or verbally warning the BG.
The fact that these efforts might also cause his flight, so much the better.
gatorjames85
Member
I don't see a problem with you not keeping a round chambered if you feel unsafe doing so, although that's not how I keep my shotgun. I would still keep the safety on until I was ready to shoot. I guess if you truly aren't going to rack the gun until the moment of truth then this thinking wouldn't apply. I guess it just wouldn't feel right for me to keep a gun with the safety off (force of habit).
mgkdrgn
Member
I keep mine the same way (loaded mag tube, but none chambered), but for a slightly different reason.
Chances are that I would be woken up in the middle of the night by a sound that would cause me to grab the shotgun. Personally, I want to make sure I am lucid enough to rack the slide to chamber a round before I shoot. Personal choice.
That said, the very FIRST thing I will do after recovering the weapon from it's storage position is rack the slide.
lobo9er
Member
ALElroy in this situation a warning may have saved the window but by no means does there need to be a law holding homeowners or renter to giving out warnings. only if intruders have to give out warning too. just because are legal system works can work against the victim doesnt mean there needs to be "warning" laws. Because such laws homeowners can easily become the one wrongfully
on trial.
on trial.
AKElroy
Member
I completely agree--I never said anything about this being a law; I only stated it may have been a good idea in the scenario described in the OP. Avoiding civil liability and avoiding breaking the law are different objectives.
Deltaboy1984
Member
You won Army of Don and that is all that matters. Just be better prepared next time.
lobo9er
Member
AKElroy
ok than i suppose i agree with you.
ok than i suppose i agree with you.
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