Avian Flu Prepardness

[ChromDome]

Over the last few weeks there have been more and more articles appearing about the Avian Flue outbreak in Asia and what might happen if it were to become human transmittable.

I found this article on ABC news.com fairly sobering Is the US prepared?

Today I see where President Bush is openly talking about preparing for an outbreak and asking congress to give him the power to deploy the military to enforce quarintens. Bush wants power to deploy military

I read everything I can find on the Avain Flu, and other viral nasties, in an attempt to learn what I can do to prepare. Both the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health Organization have lots of information available.

With a very high mortality rate, uour best bet is to avoid infection. There are two primary methods of transmittion for viruses...You breath it, or you get it on your hands. According to the CDC, poor hand hygiene is the main culprit. However, with the flu, anytime your in public around someone who might cough or sneeze in your vacinity your at risk. Even if you aren't around when they sneeze, the byproduct of the sneeze will settle on the local area....Just waiting for you to come along and touch it.

For very little money you can prepare now for protecting yourself and your loved ones...How?

1) Go to Lowes or Home Depots paint department and purchase 3M N95 dust masks. A N95 or greater mask is recommended by CDC and WHO. I bought a box of 20 for $17.95. I plan to buy more over the next several weeks so I will have some to give to my friends and family. Do it now because if this thing hits, they will be sold out and in short supply.
2) Go to Sams, Costco, etc... and buy a couple of boxes of latex gloves. $8.95
3) While your there, pick up as much Alcohol based hand sanitizer as you feel comfortable buying. I bought 2 2ltr containers of Purell for $14.95 each
4) Buy disenfecting wipes. For use on things like telephones, gas pump handles, public toilets...anywhere you might come in contact with someone elses's dirty hands.
5) Consider buying a some extra bleech. It's cheep and is the best all around bug killer there is. Should be used diluted in water.
6) Take a good multi day vitamin and vitamin C to boost your immune system

I've also thought about buying my own supply of Tamiflu; however, it is very expensive and the avian flu is showing to be resistant to it.

If it does get into the public you will need to consider your lifestyle and how it might put you at risk. Anywhere you go where you are exposed to the public puts you at risk. Shopping malls, Wal Mart Stores, Movie Theaters, Sporting Events, etc... all bring you in close proximity to lots of people you don't know, any of which could get you sick. I'm not saying you should become a turtle, but you will need to be careful of your contacts with people you don't know. For isntance, when you buy gasoline for your car, either wear gloves or wipe off the pump handle before you pick it up.

I've only begun starting to ponder what daily life will be like if this flu epidemic hits. What do you all think will happen?

 

[Fletchette]

I've also thought about buying my own supply of Tamiflu; however, it is very expensive and the avian flu is showing to be resistant to it.

Where does one buy Tamiflu? Is it prescription only?

 

[ChromDome]

Try Googling for Tamiflu you'll get several online pharmacies. I am not clear if you have to have a perscription or not to order from them. I think it may be illegal to order from an overseas pharmacy and have it brought into the states.

 

[Fletchette]

Thanks.

I can just see the DEA busting down my door and hauling me away for illegal "Tamilflu" possession.

If that happened, I'd guess I'd sneeze on them.

 

[FireBreather01]

Tamiflu is a prescription drug. There are others as well - Relenza, whch is inhaled, and the older grugs like amantadine and rimantadine, which are subject to quick resistance from flu strains. The key with any of them is to either take them prophylactically if you feel you've been exposed, or take them at the very first signs of a flu infection.

Resistance with Tamiflu has been shown to exist but it's still worth taking as it may still convey some protection. The basic anti-flu strategy is clean hands, avoidance of others with symptoms, drink lots of water, get enough sleep, vitamins, etc and get a flu shot - even if it doesn't cover all the strains it wll prevent some of them. It is not unheard of to have two different strains present in a community and you don't want strain AA to get you and make you weak for the killer BB to come in and set up house.

The next layer, especially for a killer epidemic is complete isolation, no one leaves or comes into the house until it passes - if the avian flu were in my community then I'm shutting down the entire house, kids are home from school, no one is allowed in or out and I leave only for food and other necessities until the epidemic passes. Then I would probably have everyone on prophylactic dosages of either Tamiflu or Relenza.

Ask your doc for an Rx now because if the flu does hit hard, especially avian flu, you can bet that Tamiflu and Relenza will be hard to find, if not impossible.

 

[beerslurpy]

If you secluded yourself indoors for several weeks while the epidemic burned itself out, all that would remain would be milder strains of the bug. A flu bug that doesnt mutate to become harmless will eventually kill off hosts faster than it can spread. If you caught a "domesticated" version of H5N1 you would not only become immune to the nasty version, but you would also not die from it.

This happened to a lot of people that caught the ass end of the 1918 flu. They got sick from a wave of domesticated strain and they were completely passed over by the deadly variety. We know this because of several experiments where prisoners were intentionally infected with the deadly strain but none died. However, the scientists observing them all caught it from them and did die. The prisoners had all gotten sick from flu in the previous weeks.

If this hits, I am staying indoors, working from home on my laptop and shooting anyone that tries to get in. I have 20 gallons of beer, 2500 rounds of ammo and 8 seasons of stargate. I cannot be stopped.

 

[itgoesboom]

If this hits, I am staying indoors, working from home on my laptop and shooting anyone that tries to get in. I have 20 gallons of beer, 2500 rounds of ammo and 8 seasons of stargate. I cannot be stopped.

Buy more ammo. And beer.

Then you will be set.

I.G.B.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Tamiflu will work as a proph; but when only 50% of people will
even display symptoms of the virus, then taking it as a proph in the
first place will be a severe waste of a very limited resource.

Of the 50% of people who display symptoms of the virus, about
25-50% of them will have a "severe" reaction.

Throwing around Tamifu as a proph will help the virus learn to
adapt to it and decrease what little effectiveness it has. Although
Tamiflu has displayed a statistically significant reduction of symptoms
in tests, it shouldn't be considered a cure. If memory serves me
correctly, it was about 6%.

Tamiflu does not eliminate the virus, it reduces the overt symptoms
that knock a person down.

If you can find it, it does require an Rx. It is illegal to mail-order
drugs in some states. The rate is as high as $10/pill and you will need
a minimum of 10 for basic treatment for one person. As a result of testing,
though, 20 were actually recommended.

Tamiflu does not negate the need for other care such as hydration,
rest, etc.

If one person in a family of 4 is disabled by the flu, then they will require
the care of another adult. If that ends up being both adults, then it's the
consequences of both of those adults being pulled out of work that then
affect the economy.

The point earlier about getting a weaker strain of the flu is good. That
is also why you would not want to waste the Tamiflu as a proph early
on which would in effect make the Tamiflu of less value later.

It's not knowing little things like these that make doctors cringe when
drug companies sell their products directly to consumers.

 

[beerslurpy]

I make my own beer, so as soon as I get more free kegs, I will be brewing more.

Re: the ammo, sportsman's guide just let me know that my wolf wont be coming in till december. Bleah.

 

[c_yeager]

There is really very little that can be done to avoid something like this short of limiting human contact. The only really effective means to prep for it would be to stock up on food water etc. so that you wont have to aquire these items while the disease is still floating around.

In other words, one would prepare for this in exactly the same way as one prepares for any other disaster. It is *very* unlikely that tamiflu will be at all effective against any new strains of the flue. In fact its been tested against the bird flu in Asia right now and it is apparently not working (which isnt a suprise). In fact, a lot of studies are finding that increasing quantities of existing bugs are becoming resistant to it (we can thank the usual suspects (JAPAN!) for over-prescribing out of fear and accelerating the rate at which it becomes obsolete). It certainly wouldnt hurt to have some on hand, but i wouldnt go too far out of my way to get it.

 

[jeil]

If it turns out that there is no effective drug and you come down with this disease here is something worth trying.

About 30 years ago I knew an old man who treated people with herbs. He told me he knew of a doctor who could cure rabies back in the days when there was no vaccine for it.

He explained that any virus cannot replicate at temperatures above 102-104, so this old doctor would put his rabies patients in a really hot bath twice a day and let them sit there with an elevated temperature for 20 minutes (elevated to just over 104). This was of course dangerous, but when death was certain it was worth the risk, and it worked more than once at a time when everyone knew rabies was incurable.

Also, many pain relievers such as aspirin reduce your temperature thus setting up favorable conditions for virus replication, so the idea is to deal with the headache and avoid the fever reducing pain killers. Some people think that aspirin, which had just been introduced back in the early 1900's was a factor in the flu epedemic back around WWI.

So it this killer flu does come to pass, and I get it, you can bet that I will try this rather than just go out without a fight.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Sounds like a quick way to turn someone into flu soup.

 

[AStone]

This thread is useful. This year? Next year? 2009? Who knows. But this information is important.

Just a few ideas to offer now. More later.

In no particular order of importance:

* It's not just about getting a virus on your hands. It's about doing that and THEN putting your hands near your eyes or nose. Viruses "look" for mucus membranes to enter your body. The easiest mucus membranes are in your nose and eyes. (Mouth is mucus membranes, but viruses have more trouble getting past the digestive enzymes in your saliva.) In general, before rubbing your eyes or picking your nose, wash your hands thoroughly. At the first sign of a runny nose (or even better, especially during "flu season" {as in, 30 million people are infected with avian flu}, flush your nasal passages with hot (but not painfully so) salt water (1/4 - 1/2 tsp salt per cup of warm water; use a bulb from pharmacy to gently, slowly squirt water up nostril, let drain through your mouth into sink; this flushes virus out; salt denatures them}

* Speaking as one who has experienced a thread about potential natural disaster (climate change) being locked (probably reasonably so) because it didn't deal enough with the topic of this forum (weapons; my bad), I'd recommend discussing issues about weapons in this thread; that is, what survival strategy would you use during a global pandemic, including what weapons would you carry with you if you felt compelled to leave your area due to high infection rates? If the federal government established marshall law, backed by the military, to enforce quarantine during an avian flu pandemic, and would not let you pass a roadblock while carrying your {insert favorite shotgun, rifle, handgun or sword here}, what would you do?

* Learn how to pronounce the name of this disease {unlike the president of the US}: the word "avian" refers to the latin word for bird, as in "aviary" or "aviation". It's pronounced "a-ve-an", NOT "ah-ve-ohn".

 

[c_yeager]

Sounds like a quick way to turn someone into flu soup.

Running a fever is your body reacting to accomplish the exact same thing. The disease doesnt give you a fever, the fever is how your body attempts to deal with the problem. Of course i wouldnt recomend the hot bath thing as an untreated flu will get someone into the 104 range anyways, and one does have to be carefull that they dont get too hot (at 108 the potential for brain damage comes into play). Honestly, treating a fever itself with anti-fever medication (tylenol, aspirin) can be self-defeating as it is countering one of the bodies natural means of fighting disease. On the other hand, since there is little that can be done to treat the flu one might as well be as comfortable as possible. If a loved one gets the flu i let them take tylenol and rest in bed as long as they need to with plenty of fluids, if I get the flu I let the fever run its course unchecked and get back to work in a day or two.

 

[AStone]

C_Yeager makes reasonable points.

From a biological perspective, fever is indeed a physiological strategy, initiated by the immune system, to counter a viral (less commonly, bacterial) infection. The idea is to burn the beast out to maintain homeostasis (the set of physiological processes that maintain the steady state conditions of temperature & chemical composition of your body).

My personal strategy for dealing with viruses is the following:

* Once a fever is detected, I go to bed and stay in bed. Just rest. Sleep when you can, but mainly just rest. If you get bored, stay in bed. Read. Dream of childhood. Dream of former lovers. Stay in bed. Rest. Let your body devote all it's energy to healing. Forget about work. It'll still be there tomorrow. {If you die - which is probable at 108*F - the job is totally irrelevant. If the boss objects, he can go (^@& himself.}

* Regardless of bed rest, I drink LOTS & LOTS & LOTS of fluids. If I'm not peeing a LOT, I'm not drinking enough. Flush the little bugger out. Water, juice (apple, orange, tomato...), tea. I eat soup for lunch & dinner. Cold soups are excellent during fever. Warm chicken or mushroom soup with light beans and rice is great for dinner. (The old adage 'feed a cold, starve a fever is bs; eat!)

* Over-dose on Vitamin C. Do around 1000 mg per day, if not 3000. But remember: drink lots of fluids. Too much C without fluids = kidney stones.

*When temperature goes above 103*F, I do aspirin to reduce it. But i remember: fever is our body's way of getting rid of the virus. If you do aspirin at 100 or 101, you may slow the healing process. IF T > 103: seek medical help.

 

[Thin Black Line]

My point exactly --don't drop someone in the hottub when they have a
high fever, like the one mentioned earlier at 104.

 

[beerslurpy]

He explained that any virus cannot replicate at temperatures above 102-104, so this old doctor would put his rabies patients in a really hot bath twice a day and let them sit there with an elevated temperature for 20 minutes (elevated to just over 104). This was of course dangerous, but when death was certain it was worth the risk, and it worked more than once at a time when everyone knew rabies was incurable.

This works by the way. I had a Tibetan herbalist doctor as a kid who was a sort of family doctor. This guy was a genius. I dont remember the circumstances, but he told my dad a way of beating most diseases. I'll check the exact formula, but the basic idea involved drawing a super hot bath and lying in it until one could take the discomfort no longer and was passing out, then drinking a bowl of herb and (garlic?) soup and then drinking a few shots of high proof vodka. You then wrap up very tight and lie in bed with the covers to keep the heat in.

Its like running a super fever and will basically cook the crap out of anything in your system. Viruses especially dont like temperatures outside the human body temperature range. The super heat thing definitely works, even if you dont trust the vodka advice. IMO, garlic is also a badassed cure for many things.

 

[Thin Black Line]

So this should work against HIV, too......

 

[Fletchette]

So this should work against HIV, too......

Actually, I remember a treatment that was tried; heating the blood of HIV patients and recirculating it back into the patient's body. It didn't work, because the virus can hang out in places other than your blood. Many herpes viruses take up residence in the base one one's spine, and come out periodically to find new hosts.

My experience with viruses: I managed to contract Lymes Disease way back in 1985, before anyone really knew much about it (I went fishing a lot in the Northeast). For a year or so, the docs didn't know what it was, and I got sicker and sicker. Finally, they read about this "new disease" and tested me for it. Positive.

The treatment for it at the time was massive doses of tetracycline, an antibiotic. I guess they didn't have anti-viral drugs at the time. It worked, sort of. Every six months or so I would get a really high fever (~103F) for a day, then it would go away. I suspect this was in reaction to the Lyme's virus coming out from wherever it was hiding and trying to spread. My immune system, haveing identified the intruder, responded the only way it could - cooking it. Very similar to malaria.

This went on for years. I made no attempt at breaking the fever when it happened. I always had fluid at home to drink if I felt a fever coming on.

A few years ago, I was diagnosed with an extemely rare cancer. I was immediately put on rather severe chemotherapy which wreacked havoc on my body - lost hair, damaged glands, damaged eyesight and hearing, lost 50 lbs - but it killed the cancer. I resumed my life as usual.

After a few years, I noticed I wasn't getting the fevers anymore! I suspect the toxic cocktails they gave me wiped it out wherever it was hiding.

So, in summary, I do think we can design drugs to kill off viruses like HIV, but they may be drastic (like chemo). Fevers work also, but may only keep the virus in check. A strong fever before the virus goes dormant in your body may actually be a cure.

 

[Jeff White]

This is an interesting subject, but it just doesn't fit into THR's mission. You can talk about the political ramifications of using the military to enforce quarantines in the thread in Legal and Political. You can talk about all the drugs you need to fight flu somewhere else. Perhaps at our sister forum Armed Polite Society.

This is what it says on the main page under Strategies and Tactics:

Training and mindset for staying safe. Class and range reports.

THR is first and foremost a forum that promotes the safe, responsible use of firearms. While some might say that this discussion is the equivalent of what caliber to use on viruses, it just doesn't belong here.

Jeff