"BBC elites confounded by their listeners" (self-defense related)

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Guys, high-profile cases make bad laws.

Ag, hard cases make bad law, not high-profile cases. Examples of hard cases I offer the following
...the person is invited into the home and then refuses to leave...
...the person who has every right to be in that property but is the victim of a "mistake" by the occupier...



The principle of "proportional response" seems to govern in the UK and other parts of Europe. Meaning if someone comes at me with a knife, first I must through reason (no quick decision-making based on experience and instinct allowed) determine whether the assailant intends to kill me, and if the reasonable conclusion (provided it is reached in time) is "yes, he does intend so", I must put my gun down and defend myself with a knife.

Luv'ly...
 
Well, here we go again - but this time, for real!

I got burgled about 2 months ago. The haul was pretty much my main work machine plus Wacom tablet etc. , pile of DVDs, favourite coat, partner's handbag... haul then driven off with in partner's car. Nice. Total immediate cost? About £10k UK (that's about $16,000 US for those who don't memorise exchange rates).

Please, for the love of Gh0d don't mention "insurance" to me - I've actually found something worse than taxes. If I turn up at an NHS hospital gushing blood, they'll at least caulk the wound and give me an aspirin - an insurance company would say "It's the wrong kind of wound".

I was asleep upstairs at the time.

So, one of my worstest fears have been realised - strangers creeping around my house after dark, stealing the stuff I need to do my work.

You know what? It's a damned good thing I didn't wake up and find 'em - I'd been saving for that laptop for *months*, and had only owned it since April.

The people spoke - and it was the educated, middle-to-uppermiddle class Radio 4 listership who did it! Trust me, you're talking about Mr. and Mrs Middleclass here. Picket fences. Tunbridge Welles. Listening to "The Archers" (a radio soap opera about a farming community) on a Sunday morning and organising the raffle for the parish church's new roof - your basic Backbones of Society.

Yes, those b*st*rds, thank you Mr. Politico.

To be honest, I've kind of relaxed myself into the fact that the only person who's going to take care of Bog and his dear ones (and things) is Bog. Agricola's work-chums, the Crime Scene Officer and forensic cohorts were *far* more interested in playing with the cat than in looking for spoor.

Sorry... I've been ranting for a bit... I'll calm down now and get to the point. Mr. Politico likes us living in fear. It's about control. They don't give a wet slap about the productive members of society, just in keeping us fearful and compliant, so Mr. Blue Suit can stand between us and them. Gah, it sickens me.

Frankly, I think that this radio poll is an encouraging sign. If we can have more of this - and oh, please! More politicians calling their constituents childish names - then you never know, the upswell might just carry the Nannyists out of office and get some grown-ups running the joint.

For myself... I'm installing more security and quite frankly the next person to break in is going to have a 220V 600 Watt ATX power supply over the noggin.
 
Leader [translation: op-ed] in today's Sunday Telegraph.

"Two events last week highlighted the exasperation felt by the public towards law and order in Britain. In a Leeds magistrates court, David Francis Bieber was charged with the murder of PC Ian Broadhurst, accompanied on his short journey from a neighbouring police cell by an impressive escort of police armed with Heckler & Koch machine pistols.
On Thursday, Radio 4's Today programme announced the results of a poll in which listeners were asked: if you could create one new law, what would it be? The winning suggestion, backed by 37 per cent of the 26,000 listeners who voted, was a law "to authorise homeowners to use any means to defend their homes".
The right to defend themselves and their property was assumed by police in Leeds to an absurd degree. True, the murder of PC Broadhurst was the act of a vicious individual, but the suspect was already in custody, in handcuffs and unlikely to attract crowds of cheering supporters attempting to free him.
The very suggestion that members of the public be entitled to defend their property, by contrast, was greeted with horror. "My enthusiasm for direct democracy has been slightly tempered," the Labour MP Stephen Pound told the Today programme, appearing to backtrack on his offer to help bring the winning law onto the statute book.
Mr Pound was right on Christmas Eve, before the voting began, when he told the programme: "The great agony politicians have is that we are completely disengaging from the public."
It is not that the listeners who upset Mr Pound by voting for what he considered to be a bad law necessarily spend their nocturnal hours waiting with loaded gun for the opportunity to shoot an intruder, in the manner that the Norfolk farmer Tony Martin dispatched a 16-year-old burglar and injured an accomplice at his home near Wisbech in 1999. It is more that they regard as unjust a situation in which Mr Martin can be jailed initially for murder and his surviving victim free to sue him for damages, and believe this to be an issue which our political leaders have evaded.
The lack of understanding of crime shown by many MPs was typified by Andrew Stunel, a Liberal Democrat, on Friday's Today programme. The public should rest easy, he said: he had already committed himself to a Private Member's Bill which would "improve the crime-resistance of homes" by compelling homeowners to fit such things as burglar alarms and window locks. The first priority in the war against property crime, he thereby asserted, should be a measure to enable the prosecution of homeowners themselves.
It is precisely this inversion of justice which so upsets homeowners who have been burgled. Clearly the law should not condone the slaughter of scrumping children. But the balance of the law goes too far when it allows a burglar who cuts himself while climbing a fence the right to sue the owner of the fence. As we reported in our Crime in Britain survey last year, victims of mugging and burglary are sick of the apparent lack of interest shown in their plights, only to read of the bizarre lengths police forces will go to investigate groundless accusations of sexual harrassment or to prosecute motorists who forget to fill their screenwash reservoirs.
The problem of burglary cannot be tackled by new legislation alone. Burglary is, and has been for as long as society has been constructed, an offence. It is the practice of enforcement which is wanting. But there is one change in the law which needs to be effected if the general rise in crime since the Second World War is ever to be reversed.
We need to return to the concept of the "outlaw": a person who through his disrespect for the legal rights of others has forfeited his own right to protection under the law. Burglars should not be entitled to sue those whom they burgle. Neither should homeowners who attack intruders have the onus on them to prove, as they do at present, that they used "reasonable" force in self-defence.
What might seem reasonable in a courtroom, when it is known whether or not a burglar was carrying offensive weapons, is a very different matter from what a burglary victim might consider reasonable in the panic of the moment, in a dark house in the middle of the night.
Were the police to approach the task of protecting the public as seriously as they took that of protecting themselves at Leeds magistrates court last week, there would not be the anger that was demonstrated in the Today poll. If the police will not defend our property for us, the very least the Government can do is to prevent the law from persecuting us when we seek to defend our property ourselves.
"
 
As I keep saying "It's going to get worse before it gets better".

The fact that a demonstrable majority lying right across the better-educated slice of the populace is getting honked off enough to actually make an issue of this is good.

Current spill from the BBC News website (not that this is headline news or anything. If you didn't know to look for the article, you wouldn't find it).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3362661.stm

"A plan to allow homeowners to use "any means" to defend their homes is unlikely to receive parliamentary support, John Prescott has predicted.

"We can't have a situation of vigilante law," he told BBC Radio 4's Today show.

The bid topped the programme's poll on the private member's bill people would most like to see become law. "

Anyhoo, the Kontrolniks are doing their usual horrified bleating, and insisting that as long as we use "Proportionate Force" then the Law will be on my side.

Which, as we all know, is a big whopping pile of fertiliser.

Ho hum, pass the rum...
 
http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3362661.stm
Dead link dude....BBC probably removed the page when non uk citizens were noticed to be taking intrest...

Can't have any "Outsiders" knowing what goes on here now can they...:rolleyes:
 
IT would only reflect the reality. Fact is that many people would shoot first ask questions later anyway, if they could. I have no doubt that is what happens here a lot. How many stories have I read where an armed homeowner stops an intruder with a gun, then said intruder (unarmed) "charges" him, so he says, and is shot dead. No investigation necessary, no charges filed. I think everyone knows what actually happened in those cases, and no one voices any opposition. How does it feel to be in a "vigilante" society?;)

Actually, in the super lawsuit happy 90's I was told by the sherriff in my town to do just that. In case the idiot sues for injuries.
 
IT would only reflect the reality. Fact is that many people would shoot first ask questions later anyway, if they could. I have no doubt that is what happens here a lot. How many stories have I read where an armed homeowner stops an intruder with a gun, then said intruder (unarmed) "charges" him, so he says, and is shot dead. No investigation necessary, no charges filed. I think everyone knows what actually happened in those cases, and no one voices any opposition. How does it feel to be in a "vigilante" society?

Actually, in the super lawsuit happy 90's I was told by the sherriff in my town to do just that. In case the idiot sues for injuries.

And the problem IS?....:scrutiny:
 
those people have only convicted when the evidence shows that the homeowners conduct was clearly not reasonable

Define "reasonable"? Is killing an unarmed guy climbing through your window "unreasonable"?



It would be an interesting tidbit that Russia recently introduced a law like the one those people want - because they said the "reasonable" thing led to too many innocent people getting imprisoned.
 
“What casuist, what lawyer, has ever been able nicely to mark the limits of the right of self-defence? All our jurists hold that a certain quantity of risk to life or limb justifies a man in shooting or stabbing an assailant: but they have long given up in despair the attempt to describe, in precise words, that quantity of risk. They only say that it must be, not a slight risk, but a risk such as would cause serious apprehension to a man of firm mind; and who will undertake to say what is the precise amount of apprehension which deserves to be called serious, or what is the precise texture of mind which deserves to be called firm. It is doubtless to be regretted that the nature of words and the nature of things do not admit of more accurate legislation: nor can it be denied that wrong will often be done when men are judges in their own cause, and proceed instantly to execute their own judgement. Yet who would, on that account, interdict all self-defence? The right which a people has to resist a bad government bears a close analogy to the right which an individual, in the absence of legal protection, has to slay an assailant. In both cases the evil must be grave. In both cases all regular and peaceable modes of defence must be exhausted before the aggrieved party resorts to extremities. In both cases an awful responsibility is incurred. In both cases the burden of the proof lies on him who has ventured on so desperate an expedient; and, if he fails to vindicate himself, he is justly liable to the severest penalties. But in neither case can we absolutely deny the existence of the right. A man beset by assassins is not bound to let himself be tortured and butchered without using his weapons, because nobody has ever been able precisely to define the amount of danger which justifies homicide. Nor is a society bound to endure passively all that tyranny can inflict, because nobody has ever been able precisely to define the amount of misgovernment which justifies rebellion……†Thomas Babington Macaulay, The History Of England (1840s)
 
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Yes, the reasonable person standard must always be used. Never mind that such a standard is increasingly shifting to that of what the reasonable weenie would do. :rolleyes:
 
Because I want to help this MP come up with a good law to introduce, I'll post Colorado's law on the subject.

1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes. (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant. (3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force. (4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.

Just change Colorado to United Kingdom, General Assembly to Parliament, and section 18-1-704 to whatever the relevant section of UK law is, and you're ready to go.

No need to thank me, Mr. Pound. I consider this to be my duty to my British brethren across the pond. :D
 
agricola:
In England, what weapons/items/implements can a home owner legally use against an intruder (say, armed with a baseball bat) crawling into the house through a broken window at 3:30am, ala your "reasonable" scenario?

Kharn
 
kharn,

anything he or she has to hand - none of the legislation against offensive weapons applies on private property, and this would include firearms if they were available. however, if that person used those items in a way that was not in defence of themselves or others (as in both cases mentioned) then they would be liable for assault.

use of such weapons, whatever their legal status, does not affect the right of self defence in english common law - the oft-cited case of the BP executive who stabbed two muggers on a tube train shows this as clear as day (he was prosecuted for possession of the sword-stick and not for the assault).
 
anything he or she has to hand
What does the above mean? The individual could use whatever is readily available, but he cant go digging for it in a night-table?

Kharn
 
Agricola,

Let's take a situation from a couple of months ago (as detailed earlier this thread).

Had I awakened, and come downstairs to find two people in my house, one making off with my most expensive possession, and one which is vital to my work, and the other with my partner's handbag (containing purse, palmtop, keys et al), what would count as reasonable force? There are two of them, and one of me. I'm an artist, out of physical shape, and apart from one term of Judo after school when I was about 9 completely untutored in any kind of fisticuffs.

Can you please just lay down a force/counterforce example set, starting with me yelling at them, and ending with me with a hammer in my hand and a dead theif at my feet (that aforementioned awful responsibility which I frankly never want on my conscience. I honestly don't know how much of a blow with what is required to kill someone) and the consequences thereof? I keep reading news articles about theives who break in, steal stuff, and when they break an ankle on the way out successfully sue the homeowner for "improper lighting", and would really like expert clarification.

Cheers.
 
I've always been under the strong impression that if it looks like you're deliberately keeping a deadly weapon for use against a housebreaker, that's "premeditated" in some way, and therefore looked at more harshly under the eyes of the law. If I'm wrong about that, I'll stop twitting about with keeping power supplies and the like to hand and just invest in a stout bat of some kind.
 
If I were in the same situation as depicted in this EDP storyboard, I would have done the exact same thing Martin did.

And under the law in most US states I wouldn't have been charged with any crime, and rightfully so.

Laws like the Colorado statute I posted earlier were written specifically with situations like this in mind.

If I'm wrong about that, I'll stop twitting about with keeping power supplies and the like to hand and just invest in a stout bat of some kind.

Pity.

As Martin demonstated, a Winchester 1300 shotgun is an effective antiburglar tool..

Here's mine.
defender2.jpg


Winchester 1300 riot gun w/8 shot magazine in Robar's NP3 finish.
:D
 
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