Browns Fan
Member
Cosmoline,
You make some excellent points, sir, that gave me food for thought. I stand corrected and rebuked.
You make some excellent points, sir, that gave me food for thought. I stand corrected and rebuked.
Bear Attack: Say a Prayer
- Thread starter Wildalaska
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emily maasch
Member
You better RUN
I am the girlfriend involved in this story and just so you know a gun wouldn't have helped. The total thing happed extremely fast - and Dan Bigley's dog Maya actually was what spooked the bears in the first place--but dogs are fast & it missed the dog grabbing dan. People need to know that it isn't true that you are safer in the woods with a dog-- it's actually makes things worse--the smartest thing I saw was two swiss guys tooting a constant whistle every 30 sec.
I am the girlfriend involved in this story and just so you know a gun wouldn't have helped. The total thing happed extremely fast - and Dan Bigley's dog Maya actually was what spooked the bears in the first place--but dogs are fast & it missed the dog grabbing dan. People need to know that it isn't true that you are safer in the woods with a dog-- it's actually makes things worse--the smartest thing I saw was two swiss guys tooting a constant whistle every 30 sec.TheGoodLife
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Hi Emily.
Glad you could post and share your experience. Sounds like a pretty frightening situation, to say the least.
Can you update us on everyone's health and condition, even though some years have passed?
And, are you sure that 'dogs' always make things worse?
Thanks.
Glad you could post and share your experience. Sounds like a pretty frightening situation, to say the least.
Can you update us on everyone's health and condition, even though some years have passed?
And, are you sure that 'dogs' always make things worse?
Thanks.
Treo
member
I'd be interested in an update as well, also curious did you just happen to google Mr. Bigley's name and end up here?
XD-40 Shooter
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12 gauge, 3" magnum slugs for the first 3 rounds, 00 buckshot for the last 3. I figure if you don't take the the bear down and it gets to you, a shotgun blast to the face would certainly blind the bear. But in all likelihood, if a big brownie is charging you, you're hosed.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Hi Emily. My thoughts are for things to get better than they've been so far for you and Dan.
Sorry you had to tune in on all the picayune bickering. Ninety-nine percent of the time it doesn't happen on The High Road.
Can you keep us posted on Dan's condition? One report was that he'd lost both his eyes, and another post said only one.
-Terry
Sorry you had to tune in on all the picayune bickering. Ninety-nine percent of the time it doesn't happen on The High Road.
Can you keep us posted on Dan's condition? One report was that he'd lost both his eyes, and another post said only one.
-Terry
My sole bear encounter happened with a Grizzly way north of the Rainer Training area on Fort Lewis back in the early 1980s. My point guy on a patrol during one of my first Field Training Exercises was about maybe 70 meters in front of the main body. We heard him scream and then he came blasting thru our position screaming F*** it! F*** it! He had not his weapon or helmet or anything. He disappeared into the brush right behind us as we all turned to watch him stunned.
A moment later we realized what made him act in such a way. Old bear GRIZ was up on his hind legs mighty PO'ed about something.
So my whole patrol opened up! Too bad they were all firing BLANK AMMO. Duh. I screamed that to them as the critter advanced on us and I remembered what my best buddy had advised when he was at the 2nd Ranger Bn next door to our outfit. So I fished out a CS Tear Gas Grenade, pulled the pin and lobbed it gently so that it came to rest under him. It popped and that bear ATE that gas. He ran away pawing and rubbing his snout. Yowling. I felt kinda sorry for it and tried to tell him NOT to rub his snout 'cuz .... like it makes the pain about 1000% worse, almost instantly. He ignored me and the yowls intensified as he crashed thru the dense bush.
We policed up our guy's gear and him, too. I called in a chopper to extract us in case he recovered and decided to come looking for a soldier type meal with our MRE's for desert. Too bad civilians can't get hold of CS grenades, it worked great for me. However I do understand that those HUGE cans of "Bear Mace" work very well, too. But it'd be like carrying a fire extinguisher while camping. Not a lot of fun there.
But I'd keep on in an RV, for sure.
A moment later we realized what made him act in such a way. Old bear GRIZ was up on his hind legs mighty PO'ed about something.
So my whole patrol opened up! Too bad they were all firing BLANK AMMO. Duh. I screamed that to them as the critter advanced on us and I remembered what my best buddy had advised when he was at the 2nd Ranger Bn next door to our outfit. So I fished out a CS Tear Gas Grenade, pulled the pin and lobbed it gently so that it came to rest under him. It popped and that bear ATE that gas. He ran away pawing and rubbing his snout. Yowling. I felt kinda sorry for it and tried to tell him NOT to rub his snout 'cuz .... like it makes the pain about 1000% worse, almost instantly. He ignored me and the yowls intensified as he crashed thru the dense bush.
We policed up our guy's gear and him, too. I called in a chopper to extract us in case he recovered and decided to come looking for a soldier type meal with our MRE's for desert. Too bad civilians can't get hold of CS grenades, it worked great for me. However I do understand that those HUGE cans of "Bear Mace" work very well, too. But it'd be like carrying a fire extinguisher while camping. Not a lot of fun there.
But I'd keep on in an RV, for sure.
I don't want to insert myself into this whole thing you guys have with Piledriver, but I think it's the Alaska boys who are on the high horse. I don't remember anywhere where Piledriver mentioned a high cap 9mm or that he thought all bears should be shot on sight. He said that if a bear is charging, he thinks you should shoot it. Whether that's the right choice or not, it is his opinion. Seems like you guys jumped on him a little too eagerly. I happen to have the same opinion. Were I to be in Alaska, I would (1) carry at least one firearm, and (2) shoot at a bear charging me. I don't care if it is a false charge or not. I don't want to sit around and try to figure out if a 600 pound wild animal is just messing with me. I don't want to die with ammo left. True, I may die anyway, but I sure hope I'd get a few shots off first. If not, then it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm not going to give two legged predators the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think I'll do it for the four legged kind either. That probably makes me a knucklehead, so it's a good thing I don't make it up to Alaska very often.
I would vote for the pepper spray. And a shotgun for backup. Forest Service reports indicate a very high rate of effectiveness for the spray. With a gun, a CNS shot, under duress, in a very short time span???? It is hard to exaggerate the amazing speed and vitality of a Grizzly bear.
Emily's dog comment was reflected in Washington State recently, when a mountain biker with dogs was mauled in a county park. Reports indicated the dogs upset the black bear.
Emily's dog comment was reflected in Washington State recently, when a mountain biker with dogs was mauled in a county park. Reports indicated the dogs upset the black bear.
cassandrasdaddy
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how does someone report a failure of the spray?
Dogs in the bush, love 'em, hate 'em. They are handy critters in the bush, good for finding trails and game. They can be a problem when they infuriate a large animal and then run back and hide between your legs.
As with every thing else it seems training is VERY important.
As with every thing else it seems training is VERY important.
My prayers are certainly with this young man and his family. Such a profound tragedy.
So no trips to Alaska for me and my family, thank you very much. Especially when I ponder the serious side of this very succinct post:
No, I think I'll spend my vacation money elsewhere.
So no trips to Alaska for me and my family, thank you very much. Especially when I ponder the serious side of this very succinct post:
No, I think I'll spend my vacation money elsewhere.
physics
Member
This is interesting, but the OP doesn't explain the situation in very much detail, as it would apply to a biologist studying the bear behavior. Was Bigley making a lot of noise prior to the attack? Did he have fish with him? Was there a carcass of a kill nearby? Was the sow injured prior to the attack? How did Bigley react to the bears presence, ie: did he run away? These are all important factors to consider.
Brown bears do not generally just attack out of the blue. Nor do they generally prey on humans. There are many variables to take into account, including past relationship of the bear with humans. Glacier National Park had a huge problem with Grizzlies eating trash, and thus encountering humans. Anyone read "Night of the Grizzlies"? For the most part, Grizzly attacks happen because you surprised the bear, or stumbled upon a kill, came between a sow and her cubs, etc... Anytime that mother grizzly feels threatened... she's gonna kick your butt.
Of course, I was not there, so I don't know the real situation.
A good book on this subject is "Bear Attacks Their Causes and Avoidance" from Stephen Herrero.
Also, just on a side note, if you DO end up having to shoot a charging brown bear... don't shoot it in the head, the angle of the forehead will just deflect the bullet. You shoot a charging bear in the chest, or so I've read. I have never shot a bear, nor would I like to.
My point here is that there may be more to the story, because brown bears don't usually attack without some kind of provocation.
Brown bears do not generally just attack out of the blue. Nor do they generally prey on humans. There are many variables to take into account, including past relationship of the bear with humans. Glacier National Park had a huge problem with Grizzlies eating trash, and thus encountering humans. Anyone read "Night of the Grizzlies"? For the most part, Grizzly attacks happen because you surprised the bear, or stumbled upon a kill, came between a sow and her cubs, etc... Anytime that mother grizzly feels threatened... she's gonna kick your butt.
Of course, I was not there, so I don't know the real situation.
A good book on this subject is "Bear Attacks Their Causes and Avoidance" from Stephen Herrero.
Also, just on a side note, if you DO end up having to shoot a charging brown bear... don't shoot it in the head, the angle of the forehead will just deflect the bullet. You shoot a charging bear in the chest, or so I've read. I have never shot a bear, nor would I like to.
My point here is that there may be more to the story, because brown bears don't usually attack without some kind of provocation.
Cosmoline
Member
Guys, this thread is FIVE YEARS OLD. Half the people you're arguing with aren't even on this forum anymore.
Who knows. The bear maybe. As much as folks would like to have a simple set of rules that can make them safe in the wild woods, there just aren't any guarantees. The business of bells and such is as much about making people feel safe as anything else. You just have to accept that you can't control nature and realize the risk is always there. I'm terribly sorry for the tragic loss here. Sometimes there's nothing you can do because it happens incredibly fast. I know people who always carry, and some who never do. Personally I'd rather have at least some hope. But I know of attacks that came from nowhere and were over so fast even armed hunters never had a chance to fire. Nobody is to blame for this, it's just nature.
There's no need to cancel trips to Alaska or get overly paranoid. The typical rural highway is many times more dangerous than the woods here.
Oy not this again. It just keeps coming back up. This is an old, old myth with no truth to it. It comes from people who shoot at the mass of muscle on top of a brown bear's head to no avail and assume their bullet was "deflected." In reality they simply shot too high. The bear's brain is underneath an enormous pile of jaw muscles, not in the mound itself.
Who knows. The bear maybe. As much as folks would like to have a simple set of rules that can make them safe in the wild woods, there just aren't any guarantees. The business of bells and such is as much about making people feel safe as anything else. You just have to accept that you can't control nature and realize the risk is always there. I'm terribly sorry for the tragic loss here. Sometimes there's nothing you can do because it happens incredibly fast. I know people who always carry, and some who never do. Personally I'd rather have at least some hope. But I know of attacks that came from nowhere and were over so fast even armed hunters never had a chance to fire. Nobody is to blame for this, it's just nature.
There's no need to cancel trips to Alaska or get overly paranoid. The typical rural highway is many times more dangerous than the woods here.
Oy not this again. It just keeps coming back up. This is an old, old myth with no truth to it. It comes from people who shoot at the mass of muscle on top of a brown bear's head to no avail and assume their bullet was "deflected." In reality they simply shot too high. The bear's brain is underneath an enormous pile of jaw muscles, not in the mound itself.
Powderman
Member
Here's a question for those with experience...
I am the proud owner of a new 4" SW 500. With proper loads (such as 440 grain Cor-Bon) how would this do for emergency bear medicine?
I am the proud owner of a new 4" SW 500. With proper loads (such as 440 grain Cor-Bon) how would this do for emergency bear medicine?
Cosmoline
Member
I just noticed that. Hope she sticks around.
emily maasch
Member
Update on dan...
I hear Dan is doing really great—he just had a baby and is still with the same girl from before the event—he is also functioning normally through brail--which didn't surprise me b/c through the entire long experience he was the strongest one— he was fading in and out down by the bluff for nearly 2 hours before a helicopter arrived from Anchorage—When he was in the helicopter he woke up and told a nurse he was allergic to penicillin. It was truly a blessing he was able to endure this sort of desire for survival ---We were located in Cooper Landing on the Russian River Campground—1/2 way down the spit on sterling hwy. I was working for Alaska recreational management at that same time on that same campground. The whole summer was off for Alaska prime fishing season ---the fish were not coming in thick and the bears started to move further down the mountains. Ironicly we were waiting at the top of the bluff and our friends were coming toward us ----but we both had been directly involved---The first sighing of the bear on our end was it and the cubs crossing the river—We gathered by a group as people were taking pictures—20 mins later the screaming started and you could say me and my ex both knew what was going on----We for some reason –which I still wonder-- ran directly toward the screaming—we didn’t get far and we had come right to the cubs—my ex was a bit ahead of me---On the other end—Dan and I wont say the other guys name but another---were walking on the trail and suddenly they looked up and across the path was the bear and on the opp. Side of path was her cubs---the dog quickly skid and the bear at random grabbed Dan and pinned him with his hind legs –The other boy rolled and hid in a bush–using his front paws to gouge the eyes----moments after ---When we were chased by the mother it was because she finish mauling Dan and then went up the stairs where her cubs had gone---the image I remember was a puffed up bloody bear charging at us right next to her babies---that’s when we ran --both with full boot waiters on ----
I hear Dan is doing really great—he just had a baby and is still with the same girl from before the event—he is also functioning normally through brail--which didn't surprise me b/c through the entire long experience he was the strongest one— he was fading in and out down by the bluff for nearly 2 hours before a helicopter arrived from Anchorage—When he was in the helicopter he woke up and told a nurse he was allergic to penicillin. It was truly a blessing he was able to endure this sort of desire for survival ---We were located in Cooper Landing on the Russian River Campground—1/2 way down the spit on sterling hwy. I was working for Alaska recreational management at that same time on that same campground. The whole summer was off for Alaska prime fishing season ---the fish were not coming in thick and the bears started to move further down the mountains. Ironicly we were waiting at the top of the bluff and our friends were coming toward us ----but we both had been directly involved---The first sighing of the bear on our end was it and the cubs crossing the river—We gathered by a group as people were taking pictures—20 mins later the screaming started and you could say me and my ex both knew what was going on----We for some reason –which I still wonder-- ran directly toward the screaming—we didn’t get far and we had come right to the cubs—my ex was a bit ahead of me---On the other end—Dan and I wont say the other guys name but another---were walking on the trail and suddenly they looked up and across the path was the bear and on the opp. Side of path was her cubs---the dog quickly skid and the bear at random grabbed Dan and pinned him with his hind legs –The other boy rolled and hid in a bush–using his front paws to gouge the eyes----moments after ---When we were chased by the mother it was because she finish mauling Dan and then went up the stairs where her cubs had gone---the image I remember was a puffed up bloody bear charging at us right next to her babies---that’s when we ran --both with full boot waiters on ----
Cosmoline
Member
Thanks for sharing those details. It's a terrible tragedy, and you're absolutely correct about the dogs.
Just recently a friend of mine in Willow nearly had a sow with a brace of two year olds on her because she ran out to grab the neighbor's stray dog only to find the three bears hot on the dog's tail. She went back to the cabin to get a shotgun I had given her last year, but by the time she came back out the dog and the bears were long gone. If she had managed to grab that dog she would have been in terrible danger.
Just recently a friend of mine in Willow nearly had a sow with a brace of two year olds on her because she ran out to grab the neighbor's stray dog only to find the three bears hot on the dog's tail. She went back to the cabin to get a shotgun I had given her last year, but by the time she came back out the dog and the bears were long gone. If she had managed to grab that dog she would have been in terrible danger.
MT GUNNY
Member
Powderman
That the best bit of common sence
Ive heard all Thread!!
That the best bit of common sence
Ive heard all Thread!!
Baba Louie
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I think that would depend on how fast can you draw it and accurately place a round or two at a P.O.'d & charging (did I say P.O.'d?) momma bear coming right at you at 30 mph? (If my math is right, that means she's covering about 44 ft per second headed your way...
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