Best Powder Type for Lead Ball in a Traditional Muzzleloader?

[Noah]

In a few days I will be getting my first muzzleloader, one of the Italian imported Hawken rifles in .50 caliber, percussion cap ignition.

For now at least, I am just looking to shoot this gun recreationally, a hobby to share with a few family members.

Shooting patch and ball loads, what is a good, clean powder/propellent loading? Are there any noncorrosive options as far as propellent? I have been shooting AK-74s and Mosins for years so I am somewhat familiar with caring for a corrosive load, but I'd love to avoid it if I can.

I have been trying to research this sort of thing for a few days but have been little overwhelmed with page after page about Pyrodex and black powder and everything in between.

Thanks!

 

[EljaySL]

So the first thing you need to know is that black powder isn't corrosive in the same sense as the corrosive primers you're used to. It's just that the residue attracts water and that tends to rust things up fairly quick. It's possible to slow things down by dousing everything in ballistol but it's better just to clean everything out with soap and water, dry it, and oil it.

If you can find real black powder in a lot of ways that's the easiest to start with because it's more reliable (lower ignition point). Failing that of the substitutes I like 777 powder. Just be aware that it's a little more powerful by volume than some and if you're looking at max or standard loads for a given gun you should probably knock off 15%. You can find it most places that carry any black powder stuff including big stores like Bass Pro.

Perhaps somebody can let you know where you can find the real deal in Ohio. It's also possible to mail order it.

 

[rodwha]

3F is typically cleaner than 2F, though some rifles may do better with 2F.

Non corrosive? I'm not certain that any are "noncorrosive" but T7 certainly doesn't cause issues within a few days according to someone's home test burning Pyrodex, Goex (I think), and T7 on a large piece os steel and leaving it in his garage for several days.

Blackthorn 209 is virtually smokeless powder and requires smokeless cleaners, but also requires a hotter ignition (209 primers basically) than a percussion cap can supply. The only way to make it work is with a starter charge of another easier lit page.

If you cannot clean right away I've tested myself what some have claimed, which is to douse the gun with Ballistol. I've left mine in a humid TX garage for a day, and it worked. But these are items that require attention. It's just a part of it.

 

[Noah]

Cleaning a gun thoroughly with hot soapy water and then oiling everything is a pretty familiar task- that's what I do for AKs and Mosins after a day shooting corrosively primed ammunition. Windex at the range, drive home, boiling water, then a deep clean and film of oil of been standard for me for awhile.

I will head over to one of the local stores and see what is available. I think I read that straight black powder is often not available for sale at big name stores?

 

[Noah]

Can I use "standard" cleaners like Breakfree CLP and Rem Oil after the hot soapy water? Or do I need specialty products?

Thanks for the help!

 

[slumlord44]

Yes

 

[J-Bar]

Rule of thumb: avoid petroleum based lubricants in black powder guns.

Having said that, there are some black powder substitutes that are more forgiving, but organic lubes tend to keep powder fouling softer, promoting better accuracy on subsequent shots and easier cleaning after shooting with both real black powder and substitutes. Conventional gun oils and lubricants are fine for the lockwork and areas where powder fouling doesn't reach.

I clean my Hawken with soapy hot water, rinse with hot water, dry with patches until bore is dry, then run a patch with Thompson Center Bore Butter down the barrel to coat the barrel prior to returning to the range.

I shoot patched round balls and use Pam cooking spray, which is Canola oil, to lubricate the patches. Swab the bore with Pam on a patch between shots for the best accuracy, but I can shoot three or four shots without swabbing in between before seating the ball takes more effort. Ballistol also works fine as a lubricant and bore cleaner.

To address your original question:

Schuetzen real black powder burns cleaner than Goex in my experience. Use 2F (FFg) or 3F (FFFg). DO NOT use 4F...it should only be used in flintlock flash pans. Fg will produce a lot of fouling.

Substitutes: I have used both Pyrodex and Triple Seven. Pyrodex is more corrosive but if you clean the gun promptly and thoroughly you won't have a problem. Triple Seven burns cleaner but is sensitive to compression and is a bit more powerful than other powders. Both are a bit more expensive than real black powder.

You will get a lot of differing advice. You go to the range and figure out by shooting what works best for you and your gun and your powder of choice. That's the fun of it.

 

[EljaySL]

I think I read that straight black powder is often not available for sale at big name stores?

Sometimes they have it but it's in a safe somewhere, not out on the shelf, and you have to ask the clerks for it. And hope you get a clerk who knows what you're talking about and doesn't mind the paperwork.

re: oil - ballistol's probably the closest to a modern oil that won't cause any problems, although some people douse everything with Kroil with no ill effects. But as a general purpose lube you might want to look into bore butter - it's not the best preservative ever but it works OK in my climate anyway. Or you can mix beeswax 50/50 with olive oil and smear that on everything (just nuke in the microwave and keep stirring until it solidifies again). There's a lot of stuff that will work.

Oh, and although a lot of people use hot water if you're getting flash rust use water that's not so hot.

 

[Pete D.]

BP

I use BP exclusively. The problem with using BP is getting the stuff. The simplest way is to buy it from an online supplier like Powder Inc.
Of course there are issues with that choice as one has to pay HAZMAT charges.
Buying in bulk is the most common way to mitigate that expense. I buy at least 10 lbs at a time.
For instance...a 5lb order will cost you $24.40 a pound delivered; a ten pound order will cost you $19.05 a pound delivered.
A 25 pound order will cost you $15.40 a pound delivered. (but you have to spend $385.00 to pay for that).

BP lights more easily than the substitutes and is no more difficult to clean up. It is the powder to use in flintlocks as the subs will not work.
Pete

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Ok .... you are shooting a traditional rifle. Know that ALL of the black powder brands, and ALL of the substitutes, promote corrosion. Black Powder ash attracts moisture, AND when it gets damp the residual chemical compounds are corrosive. PLUS you live in California, and I don't know how close to the coast you reside, but NEVER trust a traditional muzzleloader barrel to sit overnight with any powder residue. Cleaning is easy.

The barrel will need to be washed with water. IF you use anything other than spit as a patch lube, you will find that adding some dishwashing soap to the wash water, followed by a clean water rinse, will greatly help to cut the residual lube. It is a very simply thing to keep that barrel clean, so don't worry about it getting dirty.

You may find that every third shot or so, you need to take a damp cloth patch, and wipe the bore. This will help in the cleaning process at the end of the day too.

One should avoid petroleum oils and greases as bullet lubes. After cleaning and drying the barrel, WD-40 applied to the interior will help ensure the moisture is gone, and protect the barrel. Just remember to use a dry rag, and wipe out the barrel to remove the WD-40 when you're ready to shoot it again. Check you ignition nipple and the flash channel too..a needle and a pipe cleaner are good for that.

Since you're target shooting... the old rule-of-thumb is to use powder in grains equal to the caliber of the rifle as a starting load. So you'd use 50 grains of BP in your .50 caliber rifle. I'd use 50 grains of GOEX 3Fg, and not sweat the cleaning. If that works for you as an accurate load, I'd go with that. As a hunting load I'd use at least 70 grains of 3Fg.

LD

 

[Noah]

Thanks so much for all the sound help guys! I've been working on putting together a shopping list.

 

[Zeke/PA]

In my .50 T.C. built from kit Hawkins I like 45 grains of FFFg behind a patched ball and 90 grains of FFg behind a 375 grain Maxi Ball for hunting.
Through the years, I've killed 15 deer with the Maxi Ball and as in my previous posts, I prefer the Hawkins over Slugs in our late season hunts.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

After a hard day at the range eating real 3F BP and lead balls, my Pietta Remington 1858 likes to just go to pieces, relax in a hot tub of sudsy Dawn detergent, followed by a vigorous brush scrubbing and complete rinsing. It then bakes on a cookie sheet in a warm (not too hot) oven until its all dry. Lastly it gets a nice rub down with gun oil before pulling itself back together. It then rests in its very own Hampel's presentation box surrounded by its friends and coworkers until called into service once again. If that doesn't make you envy the life of a Remy, consider that it only has to go to work a couple days a month. Sorry, unless you can find a convenient commercial oven, your hawken may have to forget the baking part.

 

[MEHavey]

1. Use real black powder.
2. Either 2Fg -- OR -- 3Fg work fine in the 50cal. Use whichever you can get.
3. Despite all the screaming & internet yelling, black powder is NOT corrosive. But you do need to simply wash out the barrel, flash channel and nipple with soapy water. (sudsy pipecleaner works fine for the latter two)

4. A half teaspoon of dishwashing liquid in a quart of warm water is all you need. Nothing stronger. Slop wet patches through the bore/flash chanel til they come out mostly white. Doesn't have to be peeeerfect. (Step 7 handles anything left over)
5. Wipe down/clean up the outside of the barrel near the nipple w/soapy water too. It gathers a lot of caked fouling from the cap.
6. Wipe down the outside of everything else w/ standard BreakFree. Nothing specialized needed.
7. Finally, swab out the bore/flash channel/nipple (pipe cleaner again) w/BreakFree just as you would any rifle

-- You're done --

8. When you want to shoot again, dry-patch the barrel/flash channel/nipple with a clean patch/pipe cleaner or two. You're ready to go.


9. Don't EVER listen to any claims of "seasoning" the barrel by using the likes of 'Bore Butter' and not cleaning/lubing afterwards as in Steps 1-8 above.
10. Don't use 'Bore Butter' as final barrel preservative. Use BreakFree.


.

 

[Noah]

 

[J-Bar]

Ain't it grand that we can have fun so many ways!! Many of us could post identical photos.

Welcome to the club!!

 

[alsaqr]

Despite all the screaming & internet yelling, black powder is NOT corrosive.

The residue left from the of firing blackpowder is very corrosive.

IMO: All blackpowder is cruddy to the extreme, Swiss is somewhat less cruddy than the others. My favorite round ball powder is 3F Goex Pinnacle. However, Pinnacle is no longer made: Black MZ also works as well. Pinnacle and Black MZ like a tight fitting ball seated very hard on the powder.

My patched round ball lube is GoJo hand cleaner. i do not swab between shots.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I just use Pyrodex and then wash the gun in the kitchen sink with dish detergent and hot water. I grease them with bore butter afterwards. Never had a problem.

 

[MEHavey]

The residue left from the of firing blackpowder is very corrosive.

It is not corrosive in itself (e.g., like an acid)*, and experience has shown few ill-effects if left in a
barrel in a dry climate. But it is hygroscopic; does attract any moisture that is in the air; and holds
it in contact with any surface - hence wash it out beforehand as a matter of rule.

If you ever want to see this effect in action, watch the pan of any flintlock as it's fired on a humid day.
Within just a few minutes of shooting the pan turns into soup bowl if not wiped dry.


*
Interesting enough, an aqueous solution of any actual potassium nitrate left behind is nearly neutral PH.

.

 

[63]

As MEHarvey said use real blackpowder in ff or fff and you'll get consistent firing, less corrosion. I have been shooting muzzleloaders for 20 years and first 12 I shot subs. had miss fires, hang fires, and poor results over all then I tried a can of real accuracy improved, ignition improved and cleaning became simpler in every rifle I owed I won't use a sub today. Tradional demands traditional real blackpowder.

 

[Pete D.]

Corrosive?

Black powder is a "low power" explosive, producing much less energy than modern smokeless "gunpowder". Combustion converts less than half the mass of black powder to gas. The rest ends up as a thick layer of soot inside the barrel. In addition to being a nuisance, the residue from burnt black powder is an anhydrous caustic substance. When moisture is absorbed, the potassium oxide turns into potassium hydroxide, which will corrode metal gun barrels. Black powder arms must be well cleaned both inside and out to remove the residue.

 

[alsaqr]

A cursory look at most old muzzleloaders shows the effects of black powder. Metal parts including the rear of the barrel are usually rusted and pitted. The barrels are often unsalveagable because of pitted and rusted bores.

Modern steel resists the effects of black powder residue better than the old iron barrels and most steel barrels made before about 1900. The old steel barrels had inclusions and impurities that made them more prone to rusting.

i own 26 antique Winchester rifles, some in pristine condition. One must be very careful to clean any antique gun that has fired blackpowder. Blackpowder residue and the residue of the subs, with the possible exception of BH209, is alkaline.

Decades ago i took a hint from Miked Venturino, then the blackpowder editor of a popular shooting magazine. The bores of my blackpowder guns are swabbed with a patch wet with Windex with vinegar, now called Multi-Surface Windex, before leaving the range. This dissolves and neutralizes the alkaline residue. Once home the gun is cleaned. Some of the CASS guys use Windex with vinegar to clean their guns.

 

[MEHavey]

OK, time for a test (real data). I'll go fire a few BPCR rounds, shake a teaspoon
of water through all of the cases, and then measure the PH.

Film at Eleven.....

 

[robhof]

robhof

If you have a Bass Pro near, they usually carry real black, but don't advertise or display it, you have to ask.

 

[alsaqr]

Blackpowder residue contains potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate and maybe some potassium cloride from the impurities in the potassium nitrate.

So then it was back to the works of Noble & Abel to look at what chemical compounds are present in black powder bore fouling. Work on the pH of black powder residue showed the presence of potassium carbonate, or potash. The gunpowder residue analysis work of Noble & Abel shows that the major portions of the solid residue consists of potassium carbonate and potassium sulfate. The exact proportions of these in the residue will change somewhat with the brand of powder being used and the temperature at which the powder burns. But in any case there is a greater amount of potassium carbonate compared to potassium sulfate. Roughly 3 to 4 times as much potassium carbonate as potassium sulfate.

To then view how potassium carbonate governs the hygroscopic behavior of black powder residue a shallow dish containing pure potassium carbonate was placed outside under a roofed over deck. As the relative humidity changed with changes in the weather the potassium carbonate was observed. It was found that when the relative humidity was 30% or below the potassium carbonate would be a dry white powder. As the relative humidity rose above 30% the potassium carbonate would become damp. At 40 to 60% relative humidity the potassium carbonate would form a paste?like mass. At 80% relative humidity the potassium carbonate began to liquify.

What this showed was that at 30% R.H., or less, the potassium carbonate was for all practical purposes non?hygroscopic. From 30% R.h. to 60% R.H. the potassium carbonate could be classed as being hygroscopic. Above 60% R.H. the potassium carbonate would be classed as being deliquescent in nature.

All you ever wanted to know about blackpowder: By Bill Knight.

http://www.cherrytreefamily.com/blackpowderhistory.htm