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Beyond 1000yds (ELR Rifle)

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hawk45

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Aug 15, 2008
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Looking to get into ELR shooting at targets (steel/paper) past 1000yds. So many calibers out there and think I have it down to 7MM Rem Mag (or 7mmWSM) or the good ol' 300WM. I've gone back and forth so much on caliber selection but feel that with a Remington platform these will be more than adequate. So now I just have to decide on which Mag to go with.. I'm leaning towards the 7mm b/c of less recoil and slightly higher velocity and wind bucking ability all things equal with the 300WM. Not interested in stepping up to the 338s at this time. The 7mmRM and 300WM are time proven and components are everywhere so this is how I'm looking to roll for right now.

Here are some numbers I worked up with JMB using two of the higher ballistic coeficient bullets available for each (I know the 240SMK is higher than the 208 Amax but would prefer to use the lighter bullet for most applications).

300WM 208 A-Max (2950 fps)
-----------------------------------
Yards, Mil Drop, Velocity, Energy
1000 -7.3 1665.2 1280.5
1760 -21.5 1059 517.9
2500 -44 870.2 349.7

7mm 180 Berger VLD (2950 fps)
--------------------------------
Yards, Mil Drop, Velocity, Energy
1000 -7.2 1686.4 1136.5
1760 -21.1 1073.1 460.2
2500 -43 879.2 308.9

300WM 208 A-Max (2850 fps)
------------------------------
Yards, Mil Drop, Velocity, Energy
1000 -7.9 1595.6 1175.7
1760 -23.3 1032.9 492.7
2500 -47.1 857.6 339.6

7mm 180 Berger VLD (2850 fps)
---------------------------------
Yards, Mil Drop, Velocity, Energy
1000 -7.8 1616.1 1043.7
1760 -22.8 1045.6 436.9
2500 -46.1 866.2 299.8

Thoughts?
 
Have you considered one of the 6.5's? Less recoil, and even higher BC than the 7mm. You don't see many 300WM's or 7mm's on the 1,000 yard firing line these days.
 
Not looking to shoot on the 1K line..I have a .308 to go to 1K, but I'm looking to go past that.. far past that. The only other non-Mag calibers I can see that can get to 1 mile with any degree of consistency would be the .243 or possibly the 6.5-284, both of which would have to really be pushed hard and I'm afraid I'd be going through barrels every 900rds. The Mags seem to do things more efficiently. This will be a heavier rifle (14+ lbs) and probably braked.
 
Long Range external ballistics is all about bullet BC and velocity. The 6.5mm bullets have the high BC numbers, and most 6.5mm cartridges can throw them at ~2900fps, which will keep them supersonic out there a long, long ways. I would steer you away from the 7mmRM and .300WM due to the belt that both cases have and, the 6.5's give up nothing to them with a whole lot less recoil.

Don
 
Years ago and far away I qualified with an M2 Browning and continued to shoot out until one mile. This would seem to be in the limits of your requirement but it would probably be best to go with Barrett and I have no idea where you would find a range. As good as I was we had a first cook and mess Sgt that embaresed me badly

blindhari
 
I 100% agree on BC and velocity but doing a comparison the 6.5 loses to the 7mm and .30cal offerings in both categories pushing the same velocities (example 2950fps).

1000yds (Drop/Velocity)
6.5 - 7.5/1613
7mm - 7.2/1686
30cal - 7.3/1665

1Mile-1760yds (Drop/Velocity)
6.5 - 22.6/1023
7mm - 21.1/1073
30cal - 21.5/1059


Caliber MFG/Grain/Model Coefficient
---------------------------------------------
0.264 Lapua 139 Scenar 0.615
0.264 Berger140 VLD 0.612
0.264 Sierra 142 SMK 0.595
0.264 Hornady 140 Amax 0.585

0.284 Berger 180 VLD 0.659
0.284 Hornady 162 Amax 0.625

0.308 Sierra 240 SMK 0.711
0.308 Hornady 208 Amax 0.648
0.308 Berger 210 VLD 0.631
0.308 Sierra 220 SMK 0.629

I know that the belt is not optimal these days, but with the right reloading tools cases can last a long time. I wish more companies made the 7WSM offerings instead of the 300WSM offereings. With that said, I'll keep an open mind to the 6.5 calibers also.. but it's hard to argue with the numbers.. the 7mm seems to be at the top.
 
0.308 Sierra 240 SMK 0.711
0.308 Hornady 208 Amax 0.648
0.308 Berger 210 VLD 0.631
0.308 Sierra 220 SMK 0.629
Click to expand...

hawk45,

You ever shoot those heavy .30 caliber bullets at LR? Ouch! I shot my .30-06 with 190SMK's in 1,000 yard competition for several years before getting smart and building a 6.5x55. The 7mm has a couple of bullets available with high BC's, but nowhere's near the selection that the 6.5's have. If I was going the 7mm route, I would go with either a .280 Rem or a .284 Win. You could neck down Lapua .30-06 for the .280, or neck up Lapua 6.5-.284 to .284 Win. Quality brass is important, and nobody I know uses belted brass for LR shooting.

Don
 
Thanks for the suggestion Don, I'm in no rush to make a final decision so I'll run some more numbers and continue to read.

But yeah, I used to have a Savage 110 300WM and it did pack quite a punch with 220's without a brake. I'd get about 20 rounds in and would be sore to put it lightly. Now the type of shooting I want to do is just casual, nothing in the competition arena.. except maybe for beers against my buddies.
 
It really outperforms the 7mm rem mag by a long shot. What about 300 WSM? A lot of guys here are going with that cartridge because it is not belted. They are superbly accurate in the same regard. You will get as good or better velocity and not have the belt on the cartridge. If you are a reloader the 7mm ultra mag would do nicely for you. You can hop them up to be a screamer. When you shoot out the barrel at 1000 rounds the cost of the barrel is minimal compared to the cost of the ammo and bullets so don't worry to hard on the barrel.
 
Shooting at those distances barrel life is going to be bad regardless of the caliber you pick. Unless you're just looking to put a 10 foot wide target out and hose it, you're looking at a barrel that costs $500-$700 installed and probably will need to be unscrewed around 1000 rounds if you clean it right, sooner if you don't.

As for the neverending caliber conversation, I'd built it in a .300 Ultra mag with the barrel set up for the heaviest bullets (240 gr match bullets are available I think?). Since ballistic coefficient is the name of the game and you're planning to brake it, why not also have the advantage of good speed and the wind bucking benefit of the bigger bullets? A hard kicker like that will need great glass, but that's another conversation entirely.
 
Thinking about just trying to make a 200 MOA base for my CZ .22LR :)
 
jester_s1 said:
the wind bucking benefit of the bigger bullets?
Click to expand...

Wind drift is a factor of velocity and BC as well. Mass has no direct bearing on it.

The 6.5s have a good selection of high BC bullets, sure, but they have a shortage of high velocity cartridges to sling those high BC pills way out there.

Unless you're will to go with one of the expensive proprietary 6.5mm cartridges (like one of the Lazzeronis), the 7mms really have the most to offer. 7mm cartridges offer around an extra 300fps over a .30 cartridge of the same class when shooting bullets of similar BC. Additionally, the lighter bullet means less recoil if the velocity is the same. My choice for what you're looking for would be the 7mm RUM.
 
6.5x300 weatherby? I know they are available, but that's about all I know about them.

I shoot .300wm long range (not as long as you're talking about). The WM is a great cartridge for long range shooting, but I did realize after my purchase that there are better options. FYI: I shoot 190gr SMK's and 208 gr a-max. I tried to make a 220 gr SMK work, but the recoil was just too much for me, even w/ a heavy rifle.

I've read where Zac Smith says there is no reason to go to a .338 until you've reached the limits of a 7mm rm, so it souds like he's a fan of the 7mm.
 
A friend came back from LR at Lodi, WI where they get out to 1200 yards and said there is some trend to 7mm Something. He saw everything from .284 up, way up.
 
Hawk, when you referenced the 139 scenar, the bc is incorrect. Lapua went through and actually tested there bullets bc instead of using hypothetical numbers. The actual bc for the 139 scenar is only .578. Brian Litz measured the 139 scenar at .557 g1. I imagine the real bc number is somewhere in between those two numbers.
 
The actual bc for the 139 scenar is only .578.
Click to expand...

The actual value of the BC is irrelevant. What is relevant is: a 139gr 6.5mm Scenar at 2925fps uses ~5MOA less of up than a 190gr .308 SMK at 2900fps at 1k, and does so without punishing the shooter.

Don
 
Don, you are preaching to the choir when you mention all the advantages of shooting 6.5's. I have a little more than 4k rounds down the tube of my 6.5x47 lapua. I was just making reference to the new published bc's of the scenars.

I would personally go with one of the larger 7mm's if I was building a 1500 yard rifle. I consider the x55 down to the x47 to be great rifles that really come into there own inside of 1200 yards. You can shoot the midsized 6.5's all day long and not leave with a sore shoulder.
 
The 7mm Remington Ultra Mag that came out shortly before the short action mags might be a good candidate.
 
I've got a nice .308 that can get me to 1K, so that is what I use out that far when I don't want to get beat-up. Past 1K (which isn't all that often) I don't just want to make a small incremental jump of say 2-300yds, I'd like to be able to stretch it much farther. From what I'm gathering the 7mmRM will be plenty for what I want to do.. I think the next step after that would just be to go with a 333LM or 338Edge.. but that's another conversation. The 7mmRM could also be shot at 1k or less.
 
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