Black powder and lube...

[RugerBob]

Hey Guys, A few questions?
1- why is special lube needed for black powder in cartridge ammo?
1a- my standard lube and the blackpowder lube by lyman both have a melt temp of 150 degrees.
2- I have a 50/50 mix of BP lube and the standard lube in my sizer. So, my bullets are 50/50 lubed till I can flush out all the reg lube. Can these be fired using BP without any issues?
These are 45LC that will be fired thru a lever avtion 24" and ruger vaqueros 5 1/2".
These will be used in cowboy action shooting and I do not want to cause any issues or hard to cycle fire arms during these events. Should I just keep casting and lubing till all old lube out, then start with 100% BP lubed lead.?
Hope I gave enough info. Thanks, Bob

 

[J-Bar]

1- why is special lube needed for black powder in cartridge ammo?

BP fouling is BP fouling, whether you pour the powder in a muzzleloader or fire it from a cartridge. If blackpowder ash and residue does not stay soft in the gun's action and barrel, the hardened fouling will gum up the action and affect accuracy. BP lubes with high moisture content keep the fouling soft.

1a- my standard lube and the blackpowder lube by lyman both have a melt temp of 150 degrees.
2- I have a 50/50 mix of BP lube and the standard lube in my sizer. So, my bullets are 50/50 lubed till I can flush out all the reg lube. Can these be fired using BP without any issues?

It depends on the moisture content of the lube, not the melting temperature. I would use the mongrel-lubed bullets for practice, rather than in a match.


These are 45LC that will be fired thru a lever avtion 24" and ruger vaqueros 5 1/2".
These will be used in cowboy action shooting and I do not want to cause any issues or hard to cycle fire arms during these events. Should I just keep casting and lubing till all old lube out, then start with 100% BP lubed lead.?
Hope I gave enough info. Thanks, Bob

45 Colt cartridges produce a lot of fouling, compared to .38/.357 cartridges. I had to open the cylinder gap a bit on my Vaqueros to keep them running reliably after three stages, even using a BP lube on the bullets. The .45 Colt produces more blowback into the rifle's action so fouling is more of an issue in general with the .45 than with smaller calibers or the bottlenecked cartridges. Personally, I would use only a BP lube on the bullets, and keep a can of aerosol Ballistol handy during the match, and spritz the rifle's action at least every two stages. Use heavier rather than lighter bullets (I don't go below 200 grain bullets) and crimp them tightly...this increases chamber pressure, expands the case, and reduces blowback a bit. But you will still get some.

 

[BCRider]

There is an option. The guys around here that load "BP" rifle and shot shells tell me that they use Pyrodex P and RS powder. Produces all the smoke that is so desireable but is friendly with the regular smokeless bullet lube.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Pyrodex needs a special soft bullet lube no different than real Black Powder. However both APP and Hodgdon's 777 can be used with conventional modern hard cast bullet lubes. But be careful, 777 is about 15% more powerful than real Black Powder, so recoil will be more severe.

Regarding opening up the barrel/cylinder gap on a revolver for use with Black Powder: I shoot Black Powder through Rugers, Colts, clones, and antique Smith and Wessons. Most of them are chambered for 45 Colt, a couple are chambered for 44 Russian. All total well over a dozen cartridge revolvers that I shoot with Black Powder. Every single one of them has its original factory barrel/cylinder gap, usually between .005-.008. I have not altered any of them. When using enough soft lube on the bullet, there is no need to open up the B/C gap any further than that. If you have to open up the gap, you are not using enough soft BP compatible lube on your bullets. I use the Big Lube bullets with all my BP cartridges, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, and 44 Russian. These provide plenty of lube and no opening of the gap is required. In fact, if you open up the gap you run the risk of depositing more fouling onto the cylinder face and more importantly, down on the cylinder pin, which is the place that binding usually happens. I recently bought a Colt Bisley made in 1908 and the barrel/cylinder gap is only .003. I anticipated having problems with such a tight gap, and thought I would be doing a little extra cleaning during the match. Even with the gap of only .003 it performed like a champ and I got through a six stage match without needing to wipe down the cylinder.

The only case where a gap might need to be opened for Black Powder is if the gap is really tight, like down around .002 or so. Otherwise, leave the gap alone and put more lube on your bullets.

 

[joecil]

True Pyrodex RS as well as other grades still need black powder lubes though they don't lead as bad if not used it still does. I use SPG and when I buy bullet pre lubed, most come lubed for smokeless. I simply put the bullets on a oven broiler pan with paper towels and put in the oven at 200F for a short while. The paper turns red or blue (based on the two main lubes) and is gone. I then simply pan lube by melting the SPG in a sauce pan on my lowest setting (induction) or a double boiler if electric or gas stove they fill till I cover the oil grove on the bullets. Let set up and cut out. There are others though including home made. I suggest you check out the various lubes at Buffalo Arms site then decide if you want to make your own or buy ready made.

 

[J-Bar]

"The only case where a gap might need to be opened for Black Powder is if the gap is really tight, like down around .002 or so. Otherwise, leave the gap alone and put more lube on your bullets. "

Mine were 0.002". They started to drag on the third stage.

They are now 0.006". No problemo.

 

[joecil]

Yes, a .004" to .006" cylinder/barrel gap is about right for both black powder and smokeless. I had a situation where I bought a Uberti cattleman 5.5" barrel gun and the cylinder/barrel gap was less than .0005" which fouled up in 4 rounds of black and about 15 in smokeless. Sent it to the factory explaining the problem and got it back with a .006" gap. Gun has since shot 6 sets without a single problem and no cleaning between sets. Both my 4.75" and 7.5" guns came with .006" gaps and have fire as many as 100 rounds through both with out a bit of problem with any form of black powder or substitute form of it.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Mine were 0.002". They started to drag on the third stage.

They are now 0.006". No problemo.

Thanks for the clarification. Obviously we agree. My comment was based on many shooters thinking they need to open up a barrel gap to around .012 or so in order to shoot BP without binding.

 

[RugerBob]

Thanks for the replys. Good info there. Printed and put in my loading area. May be a venture for next year.
I cast 250gr and 200gr for the 45s. Have aresol Ballistol on hand. Bob