141 years ago today, June 25, 1876, five companies of the 7th U.S. Cavalry, under the command of Lt. Col. George Custer, were defeated by warriors of the Sioux and Cheyenne Indian nations, near the Little Bighorn River, located in present day Montana. The victorious Native Americans were now the owners of the dead soldiers weapons; the U.S. 1873 Springfield .45/70 carbine, and the U.S. 1873 .45 caliber Colt Single Action Army revolver, and a small amount of non-government issued personally owned firearms of officers and civilian personnel; all of which fired metallic cartridges loaded with black powder. The remaining seven companies of the 7th were still fighting for their lives on top of what is now known as Reno Hill. I cannot imagine the recoil that their Springfield carbines were producing, due to the black powder fouling that must have been building up inside the bore of their carbines ( from firing hundreds of rounds of black powder cartridges ) without having the ability to clean their weapons. Even after 141 years, our troops are still expected to "dance with the one that brought you", no matter how lacking that one may be.
Black powder use on this day in history
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Panzerschwein
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The .45-70 carbines were solid stoppers but the lever-action armed indians made their mark on history.
Firepower matters.
Firepower matters.
armoredman
Member
One man's arrogance killed many...and he was known as a brilliant general during the Civil War, IIRC.
whughett
Member
daboyleroy
Member
I remember reading a quote by Lt. Godfrey of the 7th Cavalry: "Fire control is everything; everything else is nothing."
Crawdad1
Member
I still question that the Indians were all that well armed during that battle. Probably most were still using single shots flintlocks and their bows and only a few had the lever action rifles. It was the tactics that did Custer in and this wasn't the first time he boldly rushed head first into a fight only this was the first time his tactics failed.
D. Buck Stopshere
Member
A major issue was the copper-cased ammunition held in leather carriers created a green film that would basically weld the casing into the breech of the carbine when fired. This sometimes jammed the rifle or carbine by preventing extraction of the fired cartridge case. A jam required manual extraction with a knife blade or similar tool, and could render the carbine version of the weapon, which had no ramrod to remove stuck cases, useless in combat except as a club.
The inherent weakness of the trapdoor carbine was its extractor. When it broke in battle as some did at Little Bighorn, troopers were forced to use knives to extract empty cartridge cases, and still keep their head down.
Some say Custer had visions of running for president and a victory at Little Bighorn would cement his chances.
The inherent weakness of the trapdoor carbine was its extractor. When it broke in battle as some did at Little Bighorn, troopers were forced to use knives to extract empty cartridge cases, and still keep their head down.
Some say Custer had visions of running for president and a victory at Little Bighorn would cement his chances.
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Tommygunn
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Tommygunn
Member
It's said there were more Indians armed with repeating rifles than there were troopers with Custer at the battle. As for tactics, what really did Custer in was that the Indians were very well prepared for the fight (a very very unusual condition for them while encamped!!!!) while the cavalry was hot and exhausted from a overnight forced march. Custer's situational awareness was probably at its nadir as well. He badly misread or did not read at all signs about the Indians' condition that were plainly evident to his Crow Indian guides.
There might well have been more Indians with bow and arrow. Some historians believe that B&A armed warriors hid in adjacent coulee and lobbed their arrows, artillery like, over the hill to rain down en masse upon the cavalry, a very effective tactic not to be sneezed at. But in the close range dynamic warfare the repeating rifles the Indians had gave them great advantage over the Trapdoors.
Tommygunn
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Sistema1927
Member
Custer's first, and most fatal, error was underestimating his enemy.
Patocazador
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"George Armstrong Custer
George Armstrong Custer was a United States Army officer and cavalry commander in the American Civil War and the American Indian Wars. Raised in Michigan and Ohio, Custer was admitted to West Point in 1857, where he graduated last in his class in 1861. With the outbreak of the Civil War, Custer was called to serve with the Union Army.More at Wikipedia
Service/branch:United States Army, Union Army
Born December 05, 1839, New Rumley, Ohio
Died:June 25, 1876, Little Bighorn, Montana"
I added the bold emphasis. I think that his "last in class" graduating place sums up what kind of student of military tactics he was.
George Armstrong Custer was a United States Army officer and cavalry commander in the American Civil War and the American Indian Wars. Raised in Michigan and Ohio, Custer was admitted to West Point in 1857, where he graduated last in his class in 1861. With the outbreak of the Civil War, Custer was called to serve with the Union Army.More at Wikipedia
Service/branch:United States Army, Union Army
Born December 05, 1839, New Rumley, Ohio
Died:June 25, 1876, Little Bighorn, Montana"
I added the bold emphasis. I think that his "last in class" graduating place sums up what kind of student of military tactics he was.
Tommygunn
Member
Yep, Custer was his class' "foot;" the guy on the bottom ....lowest of the low as they say. He had deliberately aimed to graduate in the bottom third of the class because they transitioned to cavalry, the middle to infantry and the upper to corps of engineers. Custer always wanted cavalry. Being the "foot" was a result of his charming personality disorders, whit, impetuous nature, and his historically noted luck.
The last being, mainly, that had the Union not been in such dire need of officers, he'D have been kicked out of Westpoint.....
DD4lifeusmc
Member
Armored farmer
Member
He ignored his scout's warnings of "many smokes"(campfires).
I have toured little big horn a couple of times. Once with my parents, once with my kids. A very interesting and somber place for historians and gun enthusiasts.
Crawdad1
Member
I just can't believe unless there are sources that state differently that the Indians were that well armed. Possibly a Chief or some elite warriors had lever action rifles but other than that I can't see it unless some one can show me a good source for this information.
RPRNY
Member
You can question tactics, but not Indian arms. Extensive excavation at the battlefield has uncovered large amounts of brass from Henry and Spencer rifles, over 400 cases, that the 7th Cavalry did not have. Bow and arrows were also used, but combining large numbers of attackers, Custer was probably outnumbered at 5-8:1 with repeater firepower and indirect fire from arrows, and arms played a significant role in the defeat.
https://www.nps.gov/mwac/libi/firearm.html
daboyleroy
Member
There were 2,361 cartridges, cases and bullets recovered from the entire battlefield, which reportedly came from 45 different firearms types (including the Army Springfields and Colts, of course) and represented at least 371 individual guns. The evidence indicated that the Indians used Sharps, Smith & Wessons, Evans, Henrys, Winchesters, Remingtons, Ballards, Maynards, Starrs, Spencers, Enfields and Forehand & Wadworths, as well as Colts and Springfields of other calibers. There was evidence of 69 individual Army Springfields on Custer’s Field (the square-mile section where Custer’s five companies died), but there was also evidence of 62 Indian .44-caliber Henry repeaters and 27 Sharps .50-caliber weapons. In all, on Custer’s Field there was evidence of at least 134 Indian firearms versus 81 for the soldiers. It appears that the Army was outgunned as well as outnumbered.
Survivors of the remaining seven companies of the 7th Cavalry asserted that the Indians were equipped with repeating rifles and mentioned Winchesters as often as not. Major Marcus Reno claimed: ‘The Indians had Winchester rifles and the column made a large target for them and they were pumping bullets into it.’ Although some white survivors claimed to be heavily outgunned, Private Charles Windolph of Company H was probably closest to the truth when he estimated that half the warriors carried bows and arrows, one-quarter of them carried a variety of old muzzleloaders and single-shot rifles, and one-quarter carried modern repeaters.
The above from
http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-little-bighorn-were-the-weapons-the-deciding-factor.htm
The firearms analyses has verified 47 different types of guns used by the warriors. A forty-eighth weapon is represented by metal arrowheads, showing that the stereotypical bow and arrow was also used. By using modern crime laboratory firearms identification techniques it was possible to discover that a minimum number of 415 guns were used by the Indians.
This is a conservative estimate as groups of round balls, on which these techniques are not as effective, were counted as one gun per caliber.
Indian arms included the .44 caliber Henry, .44 caliber Model 1866 Winchester, and the .44/.40 caliber Model 1873 Winchester, all repeating rifles. The army in 1876 did not issue repeating rifles
The army's single shot Springfield was simply not as fast as the repeating rifles, although it was more powerful and more accurate than the majority of the Indian arms. Indian arms also included the army's Springfield carbine and Colt revolver. These arms could have been captured either in the Rosebud fight or the valley fight against Reno and, in addition, some were no doubt taken from Custer's men during the battle. Antiquated muzzle loading firearms were also well represented. NEXT >>
The above from
https://www.nps.gov/mwac/libi/firearm.html
Survivors of the remaining seven companies of the 7th Cavalry asserted that the Indians were equipped with repeating rifles and mentioned Winchesters as often as not. Major Marcus Reno claimed: ‘The Indians had Winchester rifles and the column made a large target for them and they were pumping bullets into it.’ Although some white survivors claimed to be heavily outgunned, Private Charles Windolph of Company H was probably closest to the truth when he estimated that half the warriors carried bows and arrows, one-quarter of them carried a variety of old muzzleloaders and single-shot rifles, and one-quarter carried modern repeaters.
The above from
http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-little-bighorn-were-the-weapons-the-deciding-factor.htm
The firearms analyses has verified 47 different types of guns used by the warriors. A forty-eighth weapon is represented by metal arrowheads, showing that the stereotypical bow and arrow was also used. By using modern crime laboratory firearms identification techniques it was possible to discover that a minimum number of 415 guns were used by the Indians.
This is a conservative estimate as groups of round balls, on which these techniques are not as effective, were counted as one gun per caliber.
Indian arms included the .44 caliber Henry, .44 caliber Model 1866 Winchester, and the .44/.40 caliber Model 1873 Winchester, all repeating rifles. The army in 1876 did not issue repeating rifles
The army's single shot Springfield was simply not as fast as the repeating rifles, although it was more powerful and more accurate than the majority of the Indian arms. Indian arms also included the army's Springfield carbine and Colt revolver. These arms could have been captured either in the Rosebud fight or the valley fight against Reno and, in addition, some were no doubt taken from Custer's men during the battle. Antiquated muzzle loading firearms were also well represented. NEXT >>
The above from
https://www.nps.gov/mwac/libi/firearm.html
Crawdad1
Member
Great information, now we're getting to the nuts and bolts of this battle.
"Although some white survivors claimed to be heavily outgunned, Private Charles Windolph of Company H was probably closest to the truth when he estimated that half the warriors carried bows and arrows, one-quarter of them carried a variety of old muzzleloaders and single-shot rifles, and one-quarter carried modern repeaters."
Still a bigger percentage then I would have thought.
"Although some white survivors claimed to be heavily outgunned, Private Charles Windolph of Company H was probably closest to the truth when he estimated that half the warriors carried bows and arrows, one-quarter of them carried a variety of old muzzleloaders and single-shot rifles, and one-quarter carried modern repeaters."
Still a bigger percentage then I would have thought.
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daboyleroy
Member
I am bias/prejudice ....
some of my family is part North Carolina Cherokee and South Carolina Pee Dee Indians. Way back when,,,,,,some of the Cherokee family were marched from NC to Oklahoma.
"Cherokee removal, part of the Trail of Tears, refers to the forced relocation between 1836 and 1839 of the Cherokee Nation from their lands in Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Alabama to the Indian Territory (present day Oklahoma) in the then Western United States, and the resultant deaths ..."
http://www.ourgeorgiahistory.com/indians/cherokee/trail_of_tears.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_removal
some of my family is part North Carolina Cherokee and South Carolina Pee Dee Indians. Way back when,,,,,,some of the Cherokee family were marched from NC to Oklahoma.
"Cherokee removal, part of the Trail of Tears, refers to the forced relocation between 1836 and 1839 of the Cherokee Nation from their lands in Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Alabama to the Indian Territory (present day Oklahoma) in the then Western United States, and the resultant deaths ..."
http://www.ourgeorgiahistory.com/indians/cherokee/trail_of_tears.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_removal
Sistema1927
Member
It seems that some folks still want to underestimate Custer's enemy.
Crawdad1
Member
Crawdad1
Member
I agree. Always saying that the Indians had better weapons. You can chock it up to one thing, Crazy Horse was a genius at tactics and Custer wasn't.
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