Blade steel discussion.

[1911JMB]

In 2000 I bought a single edged Gerber Covert, my first Applegate knife. It was ATS-34, a fine blade that never gave me any problems. But the problem the knife had was that its pivot bolts would get quite loose, and I stripped them out trying to tighten them, being to young and stupid to use loctite or bowstring wax like I do now with my other folders. I sent it in to Gerber for repairs, and despite my asking for repairs and not a new one, they sent me a brand new one, with a double edge and a 154cm blade. The double edge thing pissed me off, because that makes it comparitively lousy at slicing, and no better at stabbing. The one good thing I will say is that the current run of Coverts have an extremely tight, play free lock up, curing my old ones major defect.

The main thing I don't like is the 154cm. My Leatherman Charge has a 154CM blade, and its so brittle that the tip snapped off while carving pine of all things. The gerber of course has a much thicker blade, but I still don't have a lot of faith in it. It seems to me durability should always come before the ability to hold an edge. I'm certainly no blade expert, and maybe my charge's problem was a fluke, but I don't trust 154cm.

So whats the point of this rant? I would just like to know what experiences everybody has had with different blades, and therefor which kinds of blades you prefer.

 

[BobCat]

If you go to http://spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/index.php?item=3 and look at the compositions of the two steels, you will see that they are virtually the same. 154CM has a slightly higher max Mn - which will certainly not make it brittle.

If you snapped a blade while carving pine, the steel was not heat treated properly (or it is off-chemistry). If you did not subject it to impact loading or severe bending, send it back and the manufacturer ought to be happy to replace it.

Regards,
Andrew

PS I like 1095 carbon steel blades for most purposes. Simple, cheap, reliable, traditional. However I would never turn up my nose at a "modern" alloy steel.

PPS there is more at http://www.crucibleservice.com/products/knife/index.cfm

Have fun!

 

[1911JMB]

I would send it back to leatherman, but its not broken badly enough to do so sense I use it every day at work. About 1095, my Tops is made out of it, as is a prybar I have. Doesn't hold an edge too well, but I love it.

 

[Otony]

Just a guess here, but I would imagine that the reason your Tops doesn't hold an edge well is lousy edge geometry to begin with. Tops claim to fame seems to be over building their knives, and most that I have seen are far too thick and have an abrupt grind. That is a great combination for an axe or chopping knife, but terrible for a blade meant for actual slicing.

As a result, when attempting to do finer work, the blade won't cut well, giving the impression that it is dull. It may not be dull, it is just the wrong tool for the job at hand given the way the edge is shaped. Also, depending on how Tops heat treats their steel, it could be on the softer side, and may well need to be touched up more frequently. As Bobcat wrote about 154-CM, that is more likely a measure of the heat treat process. The same steel could have been made "harder" but at the expense of ease of re-sharpening.

Bobcat stated it pretty clearly about the Gerber. ATS-34 and 154-CM are very, very close in thier composition, and performance differences between the two should only be attributable to edge geometry or heat treat.

You actually hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the double edge of the new blade (and I am totally surprised Gerber did not send you another single edge version, you should have taken that up with them immediately).

The spine on a double edge blade typically will make it difficult to get a good edge geometry on the blade. Since double edge knives are often thought of as a stabbing weapon rather than a cutting/slashing weapon, this isn't considered a problem. When used for other knife chores though, you have the results you noted, poor slicing ability. You more than likely know all that though, so I would wrestle with Gerber over a new single edged version, but don't concern yourself much with ATS-34 vs 154-CM. Either is fine.

 

[1911JMB]

About tops knives. At least their main production 1095, and not their special order s30v models hold an edge quite well for my purposes. I have a large bowie sized tops, and I only use it for heavy jobs. My comparison for edge holding was to my Boker A-F dagger, which I once used to cut a large amount of 14 gauge romex, which did not noticably dull the blade. Then again, the full sized A-F is no razor blade, so holding an edge isn't so big of a deal, but I do find its 440c RW58 blade to be quite good.

By the way, I considered sending my new covert back to gerber, but its fake double edge does look quite cool. Besides, I won't be using it as hard as my last one, rather my leatherman can take a beating, so it should do fine. Anyway, if I ever get sick of this one, apparantly I can break it and get yet another one. That is, unless fiskars goes out of buisness.

 

[mete]

154CM and ATS-34 are the same . 154CM made here by Crucible and ATS-34 made in Japan by Hitachi. The broken blade may have been improperly heat treated or the tip damaged in grinding [it's easy to overheat the tip in grinding]

 

[hso]

In 2000 I bought a single edged Gerber Covert, my first Applegate knife. It was ATS-34, a fine blade that never gave me any problems. ... The main thing I don't like is the 154cm.

ATS-34 and 154 CM are essentially the same steel so I can't think that's the problem. Considering factors like thickness, edge geometry and heat treat play major roles in knife toughness you may be concerned about the wrong issues.

Try Bladeforums.com and Knifeforums.com for discussions of the relative performance.

 

[Ken824]

STRIDER www.striderknives.com

 

[1911JMB]

I did a search of some different knife selling sites, and it appears that gerber was actually stupid enough to stop producing the single bevel version of the applegate folders, although, some sites still have them in stock.