Bond Arms .45/.410

[chaplain tom]

Chaplain Tom,

I appreciate you sharing the account of your ordeal. But to put my armchair coroner hat on for a second: You said that the pellets penetrated very deeply into his throat. I'm guessing they didn't exit the assailant's throat's? If so, you're only getting at most 4-5" of penetration out of that loading, which means either through skill, luck or God's hand you put that shot in about the only place where it would cause such an immediate blood loss as to render your assailant incapacitated.

I think your situation speaks far greater praise for your quick reaction, diligence in practice and correct shot placement than it does for the weapon used.

I'm still amazed at how many people are intent on actually killing someone. I spent 13 months in South East Asia doing just that and frankly, I've had enough of that unless it's absolutely the ONLY way out. My intent at the moment of the attack WAS NOT necessarily to KILL, but to ESCAPE. I had my wife with me at the time and the last thing I wanted her to see was me KILLING someone. As it tunred out, that's what she saw anyway. I actually tried to shoot him in the face and drive him off so I could drive off. If he had not gone down I would have let the Silvertip JHP go from the bottom barrell directly into his center chest area. At the close distance (as I've stated before) of most self-defense shootings, this one included and being a prime example, that round WOULD have penetrated MUCH deeper. I've done the tests with this gun and that round would have done way more dammage. The reason I have the .410 loaded first is so I DON'T necessarily HAVE to kill the attacker. If that happens, so be it, he made that choice not me when he attacked me first. Dirty Bob talked about the muzzel blast from the .410 load as being a deterrent and OUTSIDE MY HOME that's more my intent than anything else. If this would have happened INSIDE MY HOME the attacker would have faced an XD four inch barrell also in the .45 cal. with a HydraShock load and yes I would have shot him several times.

Before anyone asks, the XD I spoke of is this modle as listed when I ordered it XD9611HCSP06 45ACP. At distances of 25 feet or less there is very little difference in my tests with these two .45's as far as penetration goes. I've shot wet paper, sand, wood, and even a cow that a friend of mine asked me to put down for him because it was old sick and about to die anyway. Both JHP's only penetrated MAYBE 10 inches into the cow from about 25 feet away shot through the ribs just back of the shoulder. I know that sounds sick, but the cow was first shot in the head right behind the ear with the XD to kill it first. My friend suggested we see for ourselves what the difference would be between the two guns. We tried to move back some feet for longer test shots but the derreinger just isn't accurate enough to do this test without shooting several times and we weren't going there. I will admit though that my little pocket cannon is NOT the gun I would want to use IF I knew I had to make a first or second shot kill at any distance over 20 feet. I don't trust the penetration at that distance even in the .45 colt. This gun is (and listen carefully) meant for a surprise blast into an attacker's face or upper chest with any .410 load and as a last means of escape by placing a .45 colt into a vital area AT VERY CLOSE RANGE. It's NOT a COMBAT weapon and no one ever said it was.

As for more details of the incident, even in a PM, I'll have to think about that. I never really intened for this to go as far as it has, but that's the nature of all of us. We are a curious people and maybe after a while I'll be able to give more detail. I'm only proud of ONE thing here...I was able to PROTECT MY WIFE FROM WHATEVER THE BG HAD ON HIS MIND. IMO NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE PROUD OF TAKEING A HUMAN LIFE TO THE POINT OF BRAGGING ON THE INTERNET OR ANYWHERE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER. I also understand the idea that maybe my story could help someone else who might be faced with something like this him or her self. But let me think about it for a while first. I am not upset with anyone on this forum who may be curious, but it didn't happen all that long ago and it still upsets the wife a little.

 

[LawofThirds]

I'm sorry if you perceived my comment as bloodthirsty. My concern is not if the assailant is dead, but rather if the defense is effective in as many situations as possible.

The thrust of my argument is that you used your personal situation as anecdotal evidence of the effectiveness of .410 loads out of a pistol as a self defense choice and my argument against it is that you obtained nearly perfect shot placement. Without that perfect shot placement, the terminal effects (bullet vs. flesh) would have been far different. The human effect could have been the same (laid down and waited for paramedics) or they could have been far different.

Again, we're not trying to figure out the quickest and most gruesome way to kill someone, but instead trying to take a clinical, logical look at wether or not a certain round/weapon combination is an effective fight stopper.

 

[Landric]

Chaplain Tom,

Thank you for sharing your story. I can understand your not wanting to go into more details, I think that is a wise decision. I'm glad you and your wife came out of it OK. I think you used the Bond, and the .45 Colt/.410 Bore barrel specifically, for exactly its intended purpose. I'm sorry you had to, but I'm also glad you had the gun when you needed it.

I have a Bond in .45 ACP. I've very impressed with the little gun. One has to understand its limitations, but it works well for what its designed to do. Mine is easily accurate enough (with either barrel using the same sight picture) to make center mass hits at seven yards. Out at 15 yards its a lot more "hit and miss" so to speak, but that is more a function of the rather odd trigger pull, less than ideal sight picture, and different points of impact of the two barrels. I can accept the limitations because I understand what its designed for.

I think a lot of folks that carry envision themselves in a shootout with multiple robbers at a convenience store or with a mass murderer at the mall (I know I've been guilty of that). Either of those scenarios is possible, but the much more likely ones involves situations like Chaplain Tom's. The huge majority of defensive uses of firearms don't even involve shots fired. In that event, the Bond Arms guns (at least the big bore ones) look far more intimidating than any pocket .32 or .380 I have ever seen. The combination of stainless steel and cavernous looking muzzles makes the Bond look like it could blow someone apart. In reality its not any different than most other handguns in terms of cartridge effectiveness, but it looks more effective.

From what I understand, the .45 Colt/.410 Bore Bond is by far the best selling. IMO the only choice for .410 from guns like this is buckshot (birdshot lacking any sort of penetration and any .45 Colt load is better than a .410 slug). I've been considering purchasing a Bond Snake Slayer IV myself, even though I am not a huge fan of the .410 (though .410 buck is probably the best choice for carjacking defense if one chooses a Bond for that role, as Tom did). I'm interested in the Snake Slayer IV because its 4.25" barrel offers 1 1/4" of rifling for the .45 Colt in addition to a 3" chamber for the .410.

I'm not advocating the Bond as an excellent all around carry gun (though there are much worse choices IMO), but for specific roles it does the job. My .45 ACP Bond averages 793 fps with Winchester Ranger T 230 grain, only about 75 fps slower than the same ammunition from my M&P45 full size. Its nothing to sneeze at.

 

[TUBBY1]

Buy the longer .410

I have the c2k but wish i had the 4inch barrel.i also bought the 357/38 barrel and find it to be great fun.well made and a straight shooter.it's not the only pistol i own but i truly enjoy it.not a bad pocket gun even though it's a bit heavy.nice console gun.i have an ankle holster,pocket holster, and crossdraw. Carry it more than my lcp or sp101 of which i also love.don't count it out.i've never needed them and always hope not to.it's the second worse thing that could happen...

 

[PRM]

I have an American Derringer Model 1 in 45LC/.410 that I have owned since 1990. It is a fun gun and goes to the woods with me frequently. With .410 field shot, it is a snake killer at close range. The big .45LC is a hand full. I have some loaded in black powder that is better than the 4th of July to touch off. The .410, 000 Buck is pretty impressive at 5-7 yards.

I have carried it as a CC and back up. Mostly, its a snake killer/fun gun. They are not the most accurate when you get past 7-10 yards. But, they are quality made, unique little firearms.

 

[chaplain tom]

I'm sorry if you perceived my comment as bloodthirsty. My concern is not if the assailant is dead, but rather if the defense is effective in as many situations as possible.

The thrust of my argument is that you used your personal situation as anecdotal evidence of the effectiveness of .410 loads out of a pistol as a self defense choice and my argument against it is that you obtained nearly perfect shot placement. Without that perfect shot placement, the terminal effects (bullet vs. flesh) would have been far different. The human effect could have been the same (laid down and waited for paramedics) or they could have been far different.

Again, we're not trying to figure out the quickest and most gruesome way to kill someone, but instead trying to take a clinical, logical look at wether or not a certain round/weapon combination is an effective fight stopper.

First of all let me apologize to any and all who may have taken my comments about "how many people are intent on actually killing someone" as a slam. I know that most who post here are NOT sitting around waiting for the chance to "kill" someone. I also know that sometimes that is the ONLY way to stop an attacker.

I guess my original reason for posting here at all was to answer some questions about the effectiveness of the Bond Arms derringers loaded with the .410 000 buck load. I will agree as I have said before that this gun IS NOT A COMBAT WEAPON. But as Landric stated, for what it was designed for, "stopping the fight" it is perfect. I don't care who the attacker is, if he is shot in the face or throat area with 000 buck from a .410 shell at a distance of 10 feet or less, he will retreat and maybe even die. But at least he will retreat. If for some reason (high on some wild drug, completely out of his mind etc.) he does not retreat, you can stop him pretty effectively with a .45 colt in the chest. And this gun IS accurate enough an again as Landric stated it has enough muzzle velocity to penetrate as well at (close range) as most full size hand guns. Landric gave us specs for the .45acp, but the colt has just as much and maybe even a little more "stopping power" especially at the range most people will find themselves in an actual self-defense situation.

I don't mean to imply that most who post here are want-a-be killers. We have all "fantasized" again as Landric stated in his post about being in a "gun fight" with several attackers. That's not unheard of, but it is VERY rare. The great thing IMO about this gun or any gun made by Bond Arms is that it does EXACTLY EVERYTHING IT WAS DESIGNED AND ADVERTISED TO DO, and it does it as good as ANY handgun on the market. And now for a little humor...If the attacker should make it past the first 2 shots from this little pocket cannon, it's heavy enough to guarantee a chrushing blow to his skull that WILL cave his freakin' head in with a single blow.

I've thought this over and I am open to SOME questions...As long as you don't expect names and dates, (I've been instructed not to do that by the powers that be). And as long as you don't ask your questions in a gory tone. Like I stated in one of my posts, I have "played" with this gun a lot and have tested it in a variety of ways to see what it IS capable of. My wife has even shot this gun, (though not since the incident) and she actually loves it. She's not a "gun" person so her comments are kind of funny, to me anyway, but she could do some real damage with this weapon if need be. I appreciate all your comments regarding my "well being" after the incident. I feel genuine concern in most of the posts after I re-opened this dead thread a few days ago. I have had a little tougher time with this than I thought I ever would, and it has really helped me to share this with you guys on this forum. As I said somewhere in this thread, I am a veteren of the Viet Nam conflict and to be blunt this is not the first time I have had to shoot a human being. Since leaving the service, I have become an ordained minister and my compassion for my fellow human being has grown some over the past few years. I know that I didn't force the attacker to come after me and my wife, that was HIS choice and he paid the price, but it still set me back a little. Thanks guys for your support.

 

[oldbanjo]

oldbanjo

I have a century 2000 w/45/410 barrel. I've wanted one of these for four years but couldn't justify it. Just before Christmas I bought a motorcycle and noticed that when on it I could not get to my sp101 Ruger that's in my belt on my right side. I had to keep my right hand on the bike, I needed a gun that I could draw and fire with my left hand. This gun is perfect, I have a shoulder holster on my right side while riding. all I need this gun for is to give me time to get off the bike and get my 357. One shot from this gun will clear two blocks, it sounds like a cannon went off and plenty of fire. I also live on a pond an shoot a lot of snakes. I called Bond Arms yesterday about getting another barrel, I'm thinking about a 22 and a 357 max. Also while driving a car I change the holster to my left side shoulder. I could not be better pleased with any gun for my purposes. Range is fine for self protection 5 to 10 feet is enough, I always have a 357 mag in my belt, if needed. It would be hard to justify shooting someone at say 20 feet in self protection, unless they have a gun.

 

[batjka]

Tom,

Thank you for your service to the country. It is really unfortunate that you had to re-live your days of combat in the streets of the USA.

I would like to ask you a couple of questions, if you don't mind:

How did you notice the guy? Was he armed? What side did he approach from? Did he say anything? After that, I get the picture.

Thank you once again and I hope you and your wife are coping well after this shooting.

 

[batjka]

bump

 

[LawofThirds]

To ask a question of those of you who do carry the derringer style guns, what are the advantages that you find over an equivalent sized pocket revolver or subcompact automatic?

In Tom's case, I'm guessing the option of a less-likely-to-be lethal shot as your first shot is a factor?

 

[oldbanjo]

There is no real advantage but the scare factor to the bad guy would be greater with a 45 cal. Derringer. NOTE: I would never carry only the Derringer, My main gun is a Ruger sp101 or gp100, 357mag.

 

[Mp7]

Kudos Mr. Chaplain.
Well selected words spoken.

 

[seeker_two]

chaplain tom: I'm glad that you and yours are safe and well. The young man made his decision...he's the only one responsible for what happened. And thanks for your service.

I'm planning to get a BA .410 for a snake gun (when I mow near our pond) and as a backup/get-offa-me gun. Looks like it would be a good choice....

 

[chaplain tom]

Tom,

Thank you for your service to the country. It is really unfortunate that you had to re-live your days of combat in the streets of the USA.

I would like to ask you a couple of questions, if you don't mind:

How did you notice the guy? Was he armed? What side did he approach from? Did he say anything? After that, I get the picture.

Thank you once again and I hope you and your wife are coping well after this shooting.

I first noticed him when my wife and I were walking to our truck in a parking lot. He was just kinda milling around accross the street and we really didn't give it much thought right then. After we were in the truck and rolling I wasn't concerned about him at all. We pulled out of the parking lot and started toward an intersection about a half a block ( maybe 50 feet) away from the parking lot exit. When we stopped at the intersection, at a red light we were talking about which route to use to get out of the city. (Not really paying attention anymore) my wife said "there's that guy again". Normally our doors are locked when driving in that part of town and I assumed they were then too. Just habit to lock them. When I looked up to see where he was, he was about 30 feet from the driver's side door heading our way. It was kinda dark, but I could see he had something in his hand. I just put my hand on my gun, (just in case) and I thought the light would change so I could go. I would have driven off anyway, but there was traffic going both ways and I couldn't get through the intersection right then. When I looked again he was about 5-6 feet away and I could see that he DID have a gun in his hand. I then pulled my derringer out and cocked it with my left hand and clicked off the safety with my right thumb as I was pulling it out. I pretty much knew then that somebody was going to get shot, (at least that's what was going through my head at that moment). I'm an ordained minister, but I'm not a pacifist. I have always fought to defend myself. I was still thinking my door was locked so when the door opened, I was pretty shocked and I just reacted to a gun pointing at me. He obviously had no idea what I had in the truck or I probably would have been shot if he still wanted to jack my truck or rob us or whatever he had in mind, if he had known. I doubt that he would have even tried to mess with us if he HAD known, but who knows? He never had a chance to SAY anything. When I saw his gun as my door opened I just pointed the gun out the door at his face and fired. He must have seen my gun at the last second because he kinda moved or flinched or whatever and I didn't hit him in the face as I intended. That's why I got him in the throat (I guess). The street cleared of any other people for what seemed like several minutes afterward. We called 911 after pulling through the intersection, and then people started showing up from all around us. Somebody said something like "This guy's dead" but he wasn't quite yet. He was dead before the cops or emergency people arrived though. That took less than five minutes I'm guessing. After that I told the cops a BRIEF statement of what happened and like the guy on a conceal carry website says, I said I would sign a compaint against the guy. I then told them that I would give them a complete account of what had happened after I talked to my lawyer.

Trust me guys, DON'T SAY ANYTHING MORE THAN WHAT I HAVE DESCRIBED THAT I SAID TO THE COPS IN THIS POST if you ever have to do this. As it was it took a lot of interviews with the cops and the DA and a lot of good lawyer work to keep this thing from being a real bad thing for me and my family. In my state (and I'm not going to dilvulge that info for reasons I can't go into) if you have to defend yourself like this or in any other way where the perp is killed and it is declared self-defense, you CANNOT BE SUED, but it has to be declared self-defense and you have to be cleared by the state's attorney for that to be true. There are several reasons TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT until your lawyer gets to you. Just give the basics as you saw it and make sure you tell the cops at the seen that YOU BELIEVED THAT YOUR OR SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE WAS IN DANGER and that you will sign a complaint against the BG and then politely ask to speak to your lawyer. NO MATTER WHAT THE COPS ASK FOR. I'm going to ask you guys to do me and my family a favor. I know that ANYBODY can read what is posted here. I can't stop that, but I can ask you guys to respect our privacy, not to mention the other guy's family and PLEASE keep these posts HERE. I don't need publicity or offers for my story from who ever might want to use this for whatever reason. There are enough people who know about this and I have agreed with the legal people and the family of the other guy NOT to go PUBLIC with any facts (names, dates, etc.) I hope you all can understand this and work with me here.

 

[chaplain tom]

To ask a question of those of you who do carry the derringer style guns, what are the advantages that you find over an equivalent sized pocket revolver or subcompact automatic?

In Tom's case, I'm guessing the option of a less-likely-to-be lethal shot as your first shot is a factor?

My choice was based first on the concealability of the derringer along with the large caliber available in the Bond Arms Texas Defender. I was NOT too concerned with a first shot being less lethal when I chose the gun. That came after I shot the .410 000 buck and the .45 Silvertip JHP. I made that choice then. It was then that I knew I SHOULD have a choice if the situation provided it. Knowing that a blast towards the face of a single attacker would most likely give me a chance to decide IF I had to go for a "kill shot" or not. NO attacker is going to have HIS wits about him after taking a .410 blast OF ANY LOAD in the face area. I figured that I would then have the upper hand, NOT HIM. Maybe this was a gamble in my part, but I was just going by the statistics on the distance at which the VAST MAJORITY of self-defense shootings take place. And not bragging, but I felt that my combat experience would allow me to keep my cool "under fire" so to speak if this should ever happen.

There are a lot of very good pocket pistols out there, but I didn't find one that I felt I could conceal as well as this gun with the "Thumb Break Holster" sold by Bond Arms for this gun. It tucks it up very nicely either as a cross draw or an above the right hip pocket or even wearing it on the right hip for that matter. And it is very comfortable which ever way one chooses to carry it with this holster. I have to tell you, that if I had known ahead of time that this was going to happen and that I couldn't avoid it (fate or something like that) I would have had my XD .45 semi auto with me. I love the XD but it don't conceal as well as the derringer.

 

[Landric]

LawofThirds said:

To ask a question of those of you who do carry the derringer style guns, what are the advantages that you find over an equivalent sized pocket revolver or subcompact automatic?

In Tom's case, I'm guessing the option of a less-likely-to-be lethal shot as your first shot is a factor?

I don't actually carry my Bond Arms derringer (or at least I haven't as of yet). The advantages I see with the Bond Arms (many other derringers are not up to Bond's quality standards and therefore I'm only speaking specifically about the Bond) are:

-Much flatter profile than small revolvers
-Ability to fire big bore cartridges not available in small revolvers or automatics
-Intimidating appearance of big bore, all stainless Bond from the muzzle end
-Same ability to "contact shoot" an attacker as a small revolver

There are, of course, disadvantages to derringer style guns, just as there is with any platform.

My Bond is a .45 ACP. It has, in my experience, significantly less recoil than the lightweight .357 Magnum revolvers on the market and about the same or perhaps a little less recoil than an Airweight .38 Special. Its actually a little smaller and flatter than my usual Airweight BUG, though it does weigh more, closer to the weight of a steel J-frame. Its reliable, its reasonably accurate out to at least 7 yards, and it shoots a 230 grain .451 bullet at nearly 800 fps. It may not be an ideal defense gun, but at least for a single target, it will get the job done.

I don't see an advantage to the smaller bore Bond barrels when it comes to self-defense. I have the .45 ACP, and I'm planning on purchasing a .44 Special barrel and the Snake Slayer IV barrel (4 1/4") in .45 Colt/.410 Bore. If I ever decide to carry the Bond for defense (which will likely be in the same anti-carjacking role than Tom used his), it will be with one of those three barrels. There are no guns of other styles of anywhere near the compactness of the Bond chambered in any of those cartridges

While I have no plans to buy the .45 Colt (only) or 10mm barrels Bond offers, either of those would also make sense for defense. Below 10mm, I think it makes sense to look to a small .357 revolver.

I'm planning on getting .22 LR and .32 H&R Magnum barrels for my Bond also, but those will be reserved strictly for the range.

 

[batjka]

Tom,

This is really an amazing story. Glad it turned out the way it did. I'm also impressed with your respect for the criminal's family. You're a better man than I am.

Thank you for sharing the details. Stories like yours help others to learn how to act in similar situations, should they ever arise (G-d forbid).

 

[Guns and more]

pretty much worthless as a defensive weapon.

But...

sadly I had to fend off an attempted car jacking with it about 2 weeks after I got it. I had it (and still do) loaded with a Federal 2.5 inch 000 buck in the top barrell and the .45 colt in the bottom. I had it set to fire the .410 first. When the assailant opened the door of my truck at around 2am he got 4 lead pellets from about 3 feet right in the upper chest and throat area.

 

[LawofThirds]

I hadn't thought about the ability to make a contact shot. I carry a J-Frame 90% of the time and while I'm perfectly happy with a .38, a .452 diameter hole with the ability to make a contact shot certainly is a pretty nice idea.

I still don't think I could recommend a derringer to anyone as a self defense option simply because the idea of a single action firearm carried in condition 2 with 2 shots available is below my threshold of quanity vs. quality no matter what the round, but I can see the advantage of said firearm in the correct situation.

Again, thank you Chaplain Tom for sharing your experiences, I think it's a startling reminder that situational awareness (of which you have in spades) is far more important than all the caliber/gun/bullet wars we love to engage in on these forums.

 

[chaplain tom]

I hadn't thought about the ability to make a contact shot. I carry a J-Frame 90% of the time and while I'm perfectly happy with a .38, a .452 diameter hole with the ability to make a contact shot certainly is a pretty nice idea.

I still don't think I could recommend a derringer to anyone as a self defense option simply because the idea of a single action firearm carried in condition 2 with 2 shots available is below my threshold of quanity vs. quality no matter what the round, but I can see the advantage of said firearm in the correct situation.

Again, thank you Chaplain Tom for sharing your experiences, I think it's a startling reminder that situational awareness (of which you have in spades) is far more important than all the caliber/gun/bullet wars we love to engage in on these forums.

I think it comes down to a few very important factors. First - Your own self confidence in using your weapon of choice. Second - Your willingness to actually pull the trigger if faced with a similar situation. (You'd be surprised how many think they are, but when it comes down to it they hesitate or fail to fire at all.) Third - Caliber DOES matter to a large degree even with a contact shot. I wouldn't have wanted to stick anything from a .22 up to and including a .32 and maybe not even a .380 out the door in the face of a BG and have to bet my life that I was going to do more than just piss him off. Whatever you shoot, it has to at the very least, befuddle the guy for a time so you can at least get away. And last but certainly not least, no matter what you shoot, it's location, location, location...Which means practice, practice, practice. BTW My wife is shooting again.

 

[Landric]

I was orginally planning on getting a Snake Slayer IV barrel for my Bond. However, I found a deal on a new 3" .45 Colt/.410 for less than $100, so I figured I'd go that route. I was originally planning on the longer barrel for more rifling when using .45 Colt. However, I don't have anything else chambered in .45 Colt, I have no .45 Colt brass, and no .45 Colt dies. Rather than buy all that stuff in order to shoot .45 Colt in my Bond, I think I'll just stick with .410 in my new barrel and .45 ACP in the barrel my Bond came with.

The pawn shop in town had two boxes of Federal .410 Handgun 000 Buck 2 1/2" for $12 each. I bought both of them. I'm looking forward to trying them out over the chronograph. I'm not expecting major velocity with only a 1/2" of barrel, but as Chaplain Tom pointed out in his experience, it can be very effective.

 

[farscott]

As someone who carries a Bond derringer, specifically a .45 ACP Texas Defender, as a BUG, my reasons for carrying instead of a J-frame are as follows:

1) Shoots a .45 ACP out of a three-inch barrel. I get much better performance out of the sealed breech barrel of the Bond than I would with a .38 Special J-frame of equivalent OAL. Bond Arms states that the derringer is fine with .45 Super ammo, so +P .45 ACP is no problem. I have stuck with standard velocity JHP, but it is nice to know the gun can take lots of rounds.

2) Shoots the same ammo as my primary gun, a 1911. I can also reload the Bond from the spare magazine for the 1911. I have been practicing this as there is no extractor on the .45 ACP Bond barrel.

3) Disappears in a pocket holster without printing and can also be carried in a vest or boot or on an ankle. Just like a 1911, it is flat. Makes a big difference. The short OAL also makes a disarm harder as there is just not too much gun for someone to grab. The size and form factor make this an easy gun to carry, no matter what your mode of carry is.

4) Lots of practice was required for me to be speedy and accurate but recoil is much less bothersome than my wife's S&W 342PD. I actually like shooting the Bond, so it is easier to practice.

5) Perceived recoil and muzzle lift are less with the heavy Bond, especially if you set the gun to fire the bottom barrel first. A 20-ounce .45 ACP gun recoils less than a 15-ounce gun.

6) Backwards (push to the right to fire unlike an 870) cross-bolt safety is nice in case the gun is taken from you in a fight. That plus the unusual trigger (see below) can help mitigate being shot with your own gun.

Disadvantages of the Bond versus a J-frame.

1) Capacity. 5-shots versus 2-shots means the J-frame has 250% more ammo capacity before it needs a reload. Big difference.

2) Centennial guns can be repeatedly fired from inside of coat pocket. Not so much of an issue for me because I do not carry the gun inside a coat pocket.

3) Centennial trigger is easier to handle. The Bond trigger is down as much as it is back. Once again, practice is key. The Bond trigger gets much better once the gun is shot. One also needs to get the feel for cocking the gun and keeping grip pressure off the hammer in order for the Bond trigger to break. Can be an advantage (see above).

4) Better sights on the J-frame. The Bond sights take a lot of practice to get hits out beyond fifteen feet. My .45 ACP barrel set prints to the same POI but POA/POI changes happen as the light changes. I am considering adding a polymer insert or a XS Big Dot sight to the sight ramp.

5) Requires much more practice to stay capable of running the gun. The Bond is not a good choice if one is going to buy the gun and some ammo, shoot it once, and never shoot it again.

 

[chaplain tom]

5) Requires much more practice to stay capable of running the gun. The Bond is not a good choice if one is going to buy the gun and some ammo, shoot it once, and never shoot it again.

This gun or any very short barreledgun, and this gun for sure, needs to be shot on a regular basis in case you need to shoot further than 6 feet or so. I agree with farscott on pretty much everything he said. If I were to be asked for advice about buying this gun from someone on the fence, I'd probably refer them to farscott's post, and I'd give them a little bit of my personal experience with this gun. No need to go into too much detail when "helping" someone choose a defense weapon. What if he counts on something I said and he gets killed himself because he relied on my advice?

EVERYONE should buy the gun THEY have confidence in... and will therefore keep with them. I know we tend to get into caliber wars, but as I said before, caliber DOES make a difference even with contact shots. You need something either big enough or violent enough (as with the Texas Defender's large caliber round capabilities and the very intense muzzle blast) to fend off the attacker. Since we can't really carry a sawed of double barrell 12 guage with 00 buck there is NO guaranteed one or two shot kill weapon we can rely on.

I gotta tell you guys one more thing. When I stuck this little gun out the door and fired it, I was almost deaf in my left ear for about a week and a half. Think about how far the gun was from my left ear when shooting accross my body and strapped in with a seatbelt restricting my ability to turn more toward the attacker.

 

[Landric]

I got my .45 Colt/.410 Bore 3" barrel in the mail yesterday. I'm looking forward to trying out the Federal 2 1/2" 000 Buck 4 pellet load. It should be interesting. Hopefully I can lug the chronograph along and see how it does. I was expecting the 1/2" of rifling at the end of the barrel, but it still looks like an almost worthless afterthought. I know its required so that the Bond isn't a short barreled shotgun instead of a handgun, but it still looks nutty. I'd be surprised if I ever fire any .45 Colt ammunition through it.

I would love to see Bond offer combination barrels with a .45 Colt/.410 Bore barrel on the bottom and a choice of handgun chamberings on the top. I think that would make more sense for folks like Chaplain Tom who want to carry one .410 and one .45 Colt. No doubt the .45 Colt would benefit from an extra inch of rifling out of the same length tube. A .45 Colt/.410 Bore and .45 Colt only combination would make a huge amount of sense, though my preference would be for .45 Colt/.410 and .45 ACP or .44 Special. Maybe one day. I wonder how much of a pain and expense it would be to rechamber a .45 Colt only barrel to .45 Colt/.410 bottom barrel and leave the top barrel as is?

I'm driving from North Carolina to Kansas in a couple of weeks. If I can scrape together the money for the BAD driving holster between now and then I expect to carry my Bond loaded with 000 Buck in addition to my usual SP101 in my pocket. I don't really have any desire to wear an IWB holster for 17 hours of driving/riding in a car.

 

[farscott]

I agree about the half-inch or so of rifling in the .45 Colt/.410 barrels being somewhat useless. I just picked up a three-inch .45 Colt only barrel as part of a trade, so I need to start loading for it. I think my first load will be a heavy lead bullet (250-grain and up) with a large meplat to provide maximum stopping power in a sub-sonic round. I want to look at heavier, non-HP, bullets in the .45 Colt barrel since the .45 ACP barrel covers the weights up to 230-grains.

The other part of the trade is a three-inch .45 Colt/.410 barrel and a Cowboy Defender frame. That means I now have three Bond frames and six barrels. I still need to get the 9mm barrel.