British issue from 455 to present?

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Josey

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I am wanting to start a British miltary handgun collection. I already have a MKVI in 455 made in 1918. A few 380-200 revolvers from Enfield and S&W Canadian WWII issue. I have a Browning HP in 9MM. I am looking for dates of issue and what was issued when. Which handgun is presently in service? This leaves a WIIIIDE field open as officers could and did buy Wilkinson special Webleys, S&Ws, Colts and the SOE even had B-M 45s.
 
I don't know what a "B-M" .45 is, but SOE used about anything they wanted. Commandos generally used Colt Government Models, the first orders being placed in 1940. Most were probably military M1911A-1 variety. I once had a Lend-Lease one. Commandos also retained the Thompson .45 SMG after regular British units went to the STEN 9mm SMG. I read this in a book on Army commandos. Royal Marine Commandos may have varied.
Until fairly recently, SAS men could use any handgun they wanted that, "could be obtained in Britain or taken from an enemy".

I read a book by or about a Lt. McHorton (sp?) who fought in Burma with the Chindits units. He had a Thompson and a Colt Official Police .38, the latter chambered in .38/200.

General officers, CID, Field Security, and pilots often use the Walther PP and PPK. The PP is favored for concealed carry in Northern Ireland.

You need to start by buying a copy of, "Small Arms of the World" by Smith and Smith. I think the last edition was the 12th or 13th.

Winston Churchill was fairly typical of officers before the Enfield .38 was adopted, after which (I read somewhere) the use of personal handguns was forbidden or discouraged. This came as the UK was adopting their increasingly more severe gun laws. Obviously, it was augmented by other types in WW II, due to the great need.

Churchill used a Wilkinson-Webley, Model of 1892, a Mauser M96 7.63mm auto, and a Colt M1911 .45 ACP, NOT a Colt .455. In WW II, he sometimes carried his Colt .45 and a Webley .38, I think a Mk. IV.

Robert Stanford-Tuck, the RAF ace, was said to prefer a Beretta .32 or .380. I'd guess he got it from someone who took it off an Italian.

It's well known that SOE and other special ops types often used German .32's or the Colt .32 auto.

Don't forget that officers bought their own guns before the adoption of the Enfield .38 and that both Colt and S&W were popular. Officially, the gun was supposed to be chambered for the issue load, but some ignored it, or owned more than one gun.

Lt. Col. Fosbery, VC, who later invented the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver, noted in the 1880's that the best stopping power he saw on India's NW Frontier was from the Colt Frontier Model .44/40. He was quoted in John Parson's, "The Peacemaker and Its Rivals", which has long been out of print.

Lone Star
 
Just remembered...my son fought in Iraq last year, and he knew some SAS officers. They had H-K USP 9mm's. But these particular ones had been posing as Kuwaiti officers or advisors, so that may not be common.

The reason for the deception was to avoid admitting that British troops were scouting in Iraq before the war began. It avoided political problems in socialist left-leaning Britain, where opposition to Blair sending troops was intense.

Lone Star
 
Just a note that B-M stands for Ballester-Molina, the Argentine .45 ACP pistol. It is often confused with the Model 1927, a Colt copy, but is a different gun. The British bought many of them in the 1939-1941 period as an alternative to the preferred Colt, and they turn up from time to time with British proofs applied when the British government sold them.

Jim
 
What was with the British and low velocity pistol ammunition? The .455 Webley had like a 250 grain bullet at LESS THAN seven hundred feet per second. They could've dropped the grainage to 230 or 200, upped the velocity, and gotten the ballistics on par with .45ACP, if they had wanted to.
 
Among the UK proofed handguns in my collection:
Ithica 1911A1, no BNP, marked "Not English Made Released British Govt. 1955"
Colt M1909 .45, Victoria era Proofs
1918 Luger, painted with typical British black paint and BNP
Colt 1911 in .455 Webley, marked "R.A.F." (Issued in 1918 to the Royal Navy, reissued in 39 to the RAF

BNP = British Notro Proofed
 
Queen Victoria died in 1902, so the M1909 Colt mentioned by one member wasn't bought during her reign. Might it be an early commercial New Service? The M1909 was made only for US Army sales! However, commercial New Service models were bought both officially and individually by the British, in considerable numbers. It was also the "issue" RCMP handgun from 1905-1954.

The theory in using the low velocity .455 ammo was that the bullet would remain in the victim's body, transmitting all its shocking power. Also, the bullet wouldn't overpenetrate, possibly injuring one's own soldiers.

Both flat (wadcutter) and HP forms were issued, but were withdrawn as being too barbarous. The lead Mk. II .455 evidently did okay at the close combat ranges usually encountered, where the officer was basically trying to shoot some savage with a sword or spear before the savage got too close. In trench warfare, ranges weren't usually long, either.

The .38 JACKETED ammo of WW II is said to have often not even pierced a German greatcoat! I suspect that greater power is one reason why Commandos wanted the .45 ACP, and why captured 9mm's were popular.

Lone Star
 
Lone Star, there was a very small lot of Colt M1909 Semi-Autos ,45 caliber, made for evaluation by the Brits. They included a lanyard loop on the left side of the butt. It is possible that the proof house had not changed over their stamps, but "Proof Marks of the World" show these as Queen Victoria Proofs.
I will go back & verify all this - I have been known to make a mistake - as my wife constantly reminds me.
 
the bullet would remain in the victim's body, transmitting all its shocking power.

:scrutiny: Seems to me that a bullet falling out of the barrel at 650 feet per second, unless it weighs an ounce and a half, isn't going to have all that much shocking power to begin with. *Shrug*

Is it possible to safely convert a .455 Webley revolver to .45ACP? The two aren't that different in performance capability, they're just loaded very different. A .45ACP with a 260 or so grain bullet wouldn't be a speed demon either.
 
Does the Webley actually HAVE a .455" bore? There was once a British Webley cartridge called .476 that was also, apparently, a forty-five caliber.

I've seen an M1917 revolver that was supposedly converted to .455, though it might've been that way from the factory. (The people at that shop didn't really know anything about it.)
 
There have been conversions from .455, but, IIRC, the brass expands to the point where it cannot readily be reloaded. Check Old Western Scrounger, I think Dangerous Dave carries .455 ammo.
Also, consider that modifications may detract from the collector value of your Webly.
 
I quite forget where I got it but ... Fiocchi does .455 brass ... I got 100 three years ago ... and that's enough to have something to use. I load with 230 grn cast RN's... but have as yet not got the ideal sizing die so they are a bit undersize.
 
I don't have a .455 Webley (I'd love one).

When I make my gun company though, we're going to make Webley style (and looking) revolvers that are in .45ACP. The locking mechanism will be strong enough for .45+P and .45 Super, too. 6", 5", 4", 3" 2.5" barrels. Traditional fixed sights, autoloader style fixed sights, adjustable sights. Matte black polycoat, hard chrome, or parkerized finishes. Ambidextrious release levers, takes regular moonclips.

Yeah, baby. :cool:
 
450, 455 and 476 are not the same cartridges. A 450 WILL chamber and fire in 455 revover. It is a substitute standard. It is similar to 38/357 Magnum. I also have a Webley converted to 45 ACP. Moonclips only. The 45 Autorim is a better choice. There have been no problems. I also have seen 380-200 Webley, Enfield and Albion revolvers modified to chamber wad cutter ONLY 38 Special.
 
"British issue from 455 to present"

possible responses:

1. Well, in 455 the Romans in Britain were still issuing a short sword and shield.

2. I have some British issues. I don't like tea with milk or cold toast. And it rains too much.
 
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