mgkdrgn
Member
You can post these signs:
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Buying advice for me & my employees
- Thread starter Mr Gunsmith
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harrygunner
Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
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Gun store owners may have advice given their employees are often armed.
I would be inclined to work out an insurance policy to mediate risk. I'd like to value the life of my employees as well as the business.
The idea of reimbursing rather than providing guns and training is a good idea on several levels.
The only issue is the level of training. I've been taught and practice to respond like this guy: http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.h...urity-guard-shoots-thieves-internet-cafe.wesh
At a lower level of training, I struggle to see what's best overall.
Good wishes to your business.
I would be inclined to work out an insurance policy to mediate risk. I'd like to value the life of my employees as well as the business.
The idea of reimbursing rather than providing guns and training is a good idea on several levels.
The only issue is the level of training. I've been taught and practice to respond like this guy: http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.h...urity-guard-shoots-thieves-internet-cafe.wesh
At a lower level of training, I struggle to see what's best overall.
Good wishes to your business.
Shadow 7D
Member
consider checking into if you local sheriff has a reserve or auxilerary deputy program
few things, you get trained up to 'LE' standards, you are an LE even if you don't get paid for it, you comp time etc. to support your employees. The liability issues are less, as YOU are not arming and training (which is OK if it's family but your carrier probably will throw a fit if it's part of employment) rather you are supporting your sheriff, who might just have a bit fast of a response time. Work up to sworn officer, and then you can CCW everywhere, and may be required to per SOP.
AND
who wants to rob a store run by cops?
few things, you get trained up to 'LE' standards, you are an LE even if you don't get paid for it, you comp time etc. to support your employees. The liability issues are less, as YOU are not arming and training (which is OK if it's family but your carrier probably will throw a fit if it's part of employment) rather you are supporting your sheriff, who might just have a bit fast of a response time. Work up to sworn officer, and then you can CCW everywhere, and may be required to per SOP.
AND
who wants to rob a store run by cops?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Make sure that they clearly understand WHY you're doing this: to preserve THEIR LIVES. Period. They aren't armed to prevent theft, keep the peace, or apprehend criminals. The only reason they may draw those weapons is to stop someone from killing them.
Meaning all the respect in the world, knowing about the responsible use of firearms is a very good thing -- but it is a very different thing than fully understanding the lawful use of deadly force. And very, very few average folks understand what constitutes a justification of self-defense, how such cases are prosecuted, and what factors must be proved to sustain a claim of self-defense. This is the greatest training your employees need.
Good! Don't let that change when your employees are feeling a little "John Wayne" with that new pistol on their hips!
This confuses me a little bit. Law enforcement being able to catch someone isn't your concern -- and still has nothing to do with arming your folks. The only reason to have them armed is so that they can live to see the next day. Whether or not some "floater" makes a clean getaway is utterly irrelevant. If some guy comes in and holds the place up and manages to drive off with the safe, the register drawer, the pumps, and the friggin' underground tanks too(!) -- but no one shoots, no one gets shot, and no one dies? Great! Let the insurance take care of it.
The worst thing possible is to have an employee and/or other innocent(s) die. The second worst thing is for them to shoot someone. Everything else is much better than either of those.
I agree 100% with Sam; Firearms aren't there to prevent theft of properly; Firearms are there to prevent loss of human life.
Make sure everyone understands that. Only if they are threatened with lethal force, should they react with lethal force. A drive-off or shoplifter don't qualify. Someone sticking a 12 gauge in the cashier's face MIGHT. (If they have the drop on you, escalating isn't advisable; just give them what they want and let them go on their merry way).
There's a lot to worry about here as a business owner, think about it from a liability standpoint FIRST.
There's PLENTY of instances where shopkeepers have taken down bad guys with lethal force, and North Carolina is a mighty friendly state for guns (I personally LOVED it there when I visited; open carry without a permit).
But, when you are making and executing "the plan", keep mindful of liability. That's all I'm gonna say on the matter.
Make sure everyone understands that. Only if they are threatened with lethal force, should they react with lethal force. A drive-off or shoplifter don't qualify. Someone sticking a 12 gauge in the cashier's face MIGHT. (If they have the drop on you, escalating isn't advisable; just give them what they want and let them go on their merry way).
There's a lot to worry about here as a business owner, think about it from a liability standpoint FIRST.
There's PLENTY of instances where shopkeepers have taken down bad guys with lethal force, and North Carolina is a mighty friendly state for guns (I personally LOVED it there when I visited; open carry without a permit).
But, when you are making and executing "the plan", keep mindful of liability. That's all I'm gonna say on the matter.
mg.mikael
Member
Agreed, you definitely need to talk to a lawyer about the legal issues and of course have him right up a contract for your employees. What if one of your employees has a ND(negligent discharge) and injures themselves....you can bet every dollar you have that their going to sue you personally and draw you into the courts for years.
It's better to be preemptive and have a worker contract or liability form drawn up by a professional, that way you know it can stand up in the courts if it has to.
Mr Gunsmith
Member
You folks have brought to my attention some excellent information.
I'm certainly all over the liability insurance issue. As long as all employees who choose to arm themselves are NRA certified & trained all is well there both in terms of liability & legal compliance. I have that already verified & my insurance carrier is ready to amend my current policy when ready. That will be a must for this practice to go forward. The negligent discharge I didn't think about but It's on the front burner for a Monday morning conversation with an attorney for sure.
Let me clarify this part. The series of robberies in question were unsolved until a customer & store employee were both fired upon, & the employee hit in the hand losing 3 fingers, that was the event that led to the perps capture in nearby TN on NC warrants looking for their car. The owner of the business I've gotten to know personally now openly carries a firearm in compliance with state law & has several of his employees armed as well. He firmly believes if they had been armed on the night in question the bad guys would have moved on to someone else. That may or may not be true but just in terms of the pschological impact of a crook seeing a potential target as not so inviting is what I'm going for here.
I'm not advocating for anybody to cowboy up at all. That is my worst case scenario. I see the open carry of firearms in my business as a step to further security by a "SHOW" of possible force. Most statistical evidence points to that being enough to prevent a violent act. Yes the employees will be properly trained & God forbid they ever have to use them in a defensive measure. But it is a measure that I feel is necessary in this day & age when the criminal elements of society are in many cases armed & looking for the easy target. I don't want my business or the even more precious cargo contained within, the lives of my employees & family, to be at risk if I can provide the smallest measure of prevention. The security cameras are one part. Local law enforcement is another. And indeed a well trained staff that is competant & comfortable openly displaying firearms, as is our right under state law, is another.
I state all of this with the utmost respect intended. I get the feeling however that some of my replies are being viewed as macho-cowboy wild west gunslinging. That isn't my intention at all. To take a human life with a gun isn't a natural act. I've too many family members who served in wars for this country & are haunted by their actions to this day to dismiss that as trivial. But I firmly believe that just the presence of the gun in the hands of competant handlers is enough to deter well over 99% of potential problems with those intending harm. If we can't hang our hats on at least that hope then this nation & our rights along with it is all but gone.
I'm certainly all over the liability insurance issue. As long as all employees who choose to arm themselves are NRA certified & trained all is well there both in terms of liability & legal compliance. I have that already verified & my insurance carrier is ready to amend my current policy when ready. That will be a must for this practice to go forward. The negligent discharge I didn't think about but It's on the front burner for a Monday morning conversation with an attorney for sure.
Let me clarify this part. The series of robberies in question were unsolved until a customer & store employee were both fired upon, & the employee hit in the hand losing 3 fingers, that was the event that led to the perps capture in nearby TN on NC warrants looking for their car. The owner of the business I've gotten to know personally now openly carries a firearm in compliance with state law & has several of his employees armed as well. He firmly believes if they had been armed on the night in question the bad guys would have moved on to someone else. That may or may not be true but just in terms of the pschological impact of a crook seeing a potential target as not so inviting is what I'm going for here.
I'm not advocating for anybody to cowboy up at all. That is my worst case scenario. I see the open carry of firearms in my business as a step to further security by a "SHOW" of possible force. Most statistical evidence points to that being enough to prevent a violent act. Yes the employees will be properly trained & God forbid they ever have to use them in a defensive measure. But it is a measure that I feel is necessary in this day & age when the criminal elements of society are in many cases armed & looking for the easy target. I don't want my business or the even more precious cargo contained within, the lives of my employees & family, to be at risk if I can provide the smallest measure of prevention. The security cameras are one part. Local law enforcement is another. And indeed a well trained staff that is competant & comfortable openly displaying firearms, as is our right under state law, is another.
I state all of this with the utmost respect intended. I get the feeling however that some of my replies are being viewed as macho-cowboy wild west gunslinging. That isn't my intention at all. To take a human life with a gun isn't a natural act. I've too many family members who served in wars for this country & are haunted by their actions to this day to dismiss that as trivial. But I firmly believe that just the presence of the gun in the hands of competant handlers is enough to deter well over 99% of potential problems with those intending harm. If we can't hang our hats on at least that hope then this nation & our rights along with it is all but gone
.Make the program optional. Some employees may not want the responsibility. Stress that it is to protect the employees and customers, not the store.
Rather than buy equipment for your employees, offer to reimburse them for the cost. Pick a decent gun, holster and training and reimburse them up to that price. If you can afford it, also reimburse them monthly for a box of the same ammunition they will carry in the store. (They have to shoot the ammo, not hoard or sell it.)
Require the best training you can afford. You and your employees need to know when, and when not, to shoot and to be accurate if they need to shoot. Establish a reasonable test for proficiency and require periodic requalification. Make it clear that unsafe or inappropriate behavior with a gun will not be tolerated. Violators will not be allowed to carry until they can convince you that they have learned better.
The reason for not standardizing on a equipment is that you may have one employee who is very good with a .45 or .357 and another who can shoot a .22 but nothing bigger. All that should matter is whether they can qualify with the gun and ammunition they will be carrying.
Working closely with your lawyer and insurance agent, as you are doing, is critical to avoid being on your own after an incident.
Rather than buy equipment for your employees, offer to reimburse them for the cost. Pick a decent gun, holster and training and reimburse them up to that price. If you can afford it, also reimburse them monthly for a box of the same ammunition they will carry in the store. (They have to shoot the ammo, not hoard or sell it.)
Require the best training you can afford. You and your employees need to know when, and when not, to shoot and to be accurate if they need to shoot. Establish a reasonable test for proficiency and require periodic requalification. Make it clear that unsafe or inappropriate behavior with a gun will not be tolerated. Violators will not be allowed to carry until they can convince you that they have learned better.
The reason for not standardizing on a equipment is that you may have one employee who is very good with a .45 or .357 and another who can shoot a .22 but nothing bigger. All that should matter is whether they can qualify with the gun and ammunition they will be carrying.
Working closely with your lawyer and insurance agent, as you are doing, is critical to avoid being on your own after an incident.
Two issues to think about, make sure the training includes weapon retention or at least some awareness of avoiding a gun grab, also, make sure the front windows aren't all covered up w/ sale signs, cigarette racks, etc. so if your friendly local LEOs are walking by they can see inside before opening the door.
Also a nice height measuring decal on the doorframe calls attention to the fact that those going through the doorway are being video recorded for future identification if they are up to no good.
Also a nice height measuring decal on the doorframe calls attention to the fact that those going through the doorway are being video recorded for future identification if they are up to no good.
bromdenlong
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2006
- Messages
- 106
Mgkdrgn: I would not recommend the second sign you posted. Self defense shootings are justified to stop an attacker, to incapacitate them, not to kill them. An opposing lawyer could argue that the owner wanted to kill anyone stealing from him.
The first sign is fine if the owner in fact doesn't want customers open carrying in his store. But why wouldn't he?
The first sign is fine if the owner in fact doesn't want customers open carrying in his store. But why wouldn't he?
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lemaymiami
Member
Make sure that anyone of your employees or family that carries a weapon on your premises is well trained in weapons retention. Can't stress how important that is except to say there's more than one video of guys in prison practicing disarming/gun grab techniques... Fortunately there aren't many but there are a few bad guys that never carry weapons - they just plan of taking yours before the party starts (and it's embarrassingly easy to do once you learn how....).
One of my trainers was pretty much able to snake any officer's gun, face to face, from the rear, from the side.... This included from ordinary holsters, high end retention holsters, etc. Yes, these were only training scenarios with unloaded weapons - but until you've been trained in serious weapons retaining techniques... all too easy.
One of my trainers was pretty much able to snake any officer's gun, face to face, from the rear, from the side.... This included from ordinary holsters, high end retention holsters, etc. Yes, these were only training scenarios with unloaded weapons - but until you've been trained in serious weapons retaining techniques... all too easy.
WNC Seabee
Member
I'd love to drop in and buy a coke from your place! I'm just over in Hendersonville, post up or PM the name of your shop so we can support your new venture!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
riceboy72
Member
Kendahl offers sound, excellent advice. I like his ideas.
You, sir, don't come across to me as being cavalier or cowboy-esque in your posts. I get the impression you are a gentleman and are doing what you need to in order to provide for your family and to keep them safe. I respect that about you, and I'm not seeing anything that reflects a selfish attitude on your end. You should be commended for your forethought and actions to this point, and your professionalism in your posts.
As an aside, the 'get to know your neighbors' adage really is appropriate here. Not just your direct neighbors who also can see the store (assuming you have someone nearby), but perhaps the store(s) in the neighboring town. Keep an eye on each other. Call to warn each other of suspicious vehicles, or theft or robbery suspects. If they hit your store, they may hit the closest one next. Be the eyes and ears for each other and communicate the shady folks you encounter. Also, see if your local police department has bulletins they release with still images of local robbery suspects. The department where I work does this, but it's also a large department so the funding and staffing is there to support such a program. I'm in total agreement that sharing any information with your local police department is key. They need to know what to watch for, as do you.
Lastly, and I know this may sound silly, but please make sure all employees know the store's address when they dial 911, especially if they're using a cel phone to call. Oftentimes people just assume 911 knows where they are, and if you're in a mountainous or extremely rural region where "Phase II" location plotting won't work, knowing where you are is paramount. New dispatchers or 911 call receivers may not immediately know your store name (or the names of your employees) if you were to call and scream into the phone, "Send me help, we've just been robbed and shots were fired." Teach your employees to gather and give the best information possible, too, when they call.
For vehicles, the acronym 'CYMBALS' is key: Color, Year, Make, Body, Accessories, License, and State. For example, "blue early 90's Saturn 4 door sedan, 123ABC / New York" is a lot more descriptive than a "blue car, and I don't know if it was old or new, full sized or compact, etc ..." Take note of anything special about the vehicle that would make it stand out versus any other car on the road, such as tinted windows, loud muffler, missing front plate, etc.
When it comes to people, give the information from 'top to bottom, outside in'. So, from head to toe (race, sex, height, weight, hair color, anything different such as hat, glasses, facial hair, etc) and from the outside to the inside with what they're wearing (color jacket and shirt under it, pants, shoes, if possible) since that's what will be seen first by a police officer. Be as descriptive as possible. A blue jacket is one thing; a blue UNC jacket with white stripes is very specific. If you learn to give the information in order, a) you won't miss anything when and if it comes time to call, and b) you'll help greatly when you do dial 911 so you're not rattling things off out of order and confusing the dispatcher / call receiver.
I'm toying with recommending a long gun (more than likely a shotgun) be kept in the store, too, as a force multiplier if necessary. Others may chime in regarding the pros and cons of it, but just throwing that out there as a thought.
I wish you good luck and good fortune in your business! Welcome to the forum and keep us updated on how it's going! And I'd be interested on tracking your progress on this subject, too, and what you wind up doing in the long run. My best to you, sir.
You, sir, don't come across to me as being cavalier or cowboy-esque in your posts. I get the impression you are a gentleman and are doing what you need to in order to provide for your family and to keep them safe. I respect that about you, and I'm not seeing anything that reflects a selfish attitude on your end. You should be commended for your forethought and actions to this point, and your professionalism in your posts.
As an aside, the 'get to know your neighbors' adage really is appropriate here. Not just your direct neighbors who also can see the store (assuming you have someone nearby), but perhaps the store(s) in the neighboring town. Keep an eye on each other. Call to warn each other of suspicious vehicles, or theft or robbery suspects. If they hit your store, they may hit the closest one next. Be the eyes and ears for each other and communicate the shady folks you encounter. Also, see if your local police department has bulletins they release with still images of local robbery suspects. The department where I work does this, but it's also a large department so the funding and staffing is there to support such a program. I'm in total agreement that sharing any information with your local police department is key. They need to know what to watch for, as do you.
Lastly, and I know this may sound silly, but please make sure all employees know the store's address when they dial 911, especially if they're using a cel phone to call. Oftentimes people just assume 911 knows where they are, and if you're in a mountainous or extremely rural region where "Phase II" location plotting won't work, knowing where you are is paramount. New dispatchers or 911 call receivers may not immediately know your store name (or the names of your employees) if you were to call and scream into the phone, "Send me help, we've just been robbed and shots were fired." Teach your employees to gather and give the best information possible, too, when they call.
For vehicles, the acronym 'CYMBALS' is key: Color, Year, Make, Body, Accessories, License, and State. For example, "blue early 90's Saturn 4 door sedan, 123ABC / New York" is a lot more descriptive than a "blue car, and I don't know if it was old or new, full sized or compact, etc ..." Take note of anything special about the vehicle that would make it stand out versus any other car on the road, such as tinted windows, loud muffler, missing front plate, etc.
When it comes to people, give the information from 'top to bottom, outside in'. So, from head to toe (race, sex, height, weight, hair color, anything different such as hat, glasses, facial hair, etc) and from the outside to the inside with what they're wearing (color jacket and shirt under it, pants, shoes, if possible) since that's what will be seen first by a police officer. Be as descriptive as possible. A blue jacket is one thing; a blue UNC jacket with white stripes is very specific. If you learn to give the information in order, a) you won't miss anything when and if it comes time to call, and b) you'll help greatly when you do dial 911 so you're not rattling things off out of order and confusing the dispatcher / call receiver.
I'm toying with recommending a long gun (more than likely a shotgun) be kept in the store, too, as a force multiplier if necessary. Others may chime in regarding the pros and cons of it, but just throwing that out there as a thought.
I wish you good luck and good fortune in your business! Welcome to the forum and keep us updated on how it's going! And I'd be interested on tracking your progress on this subject, too, and what you wind up doing in the long run. My best to you, sir.
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Certaindeaf
member
Interesting thread. I really didn't read the whole thing.. it seems like you're getting some good input and are a thinking man. It seems to me that even if one person is on-site and alarm/panic systems etc are in place that is well trained and willing, you're ahead of the game. Do your kids work there? If so, train them or pay to have them trained well.. good insurance all around.
Maybe have a picnic table or something out front with a bunch of American Rifleman magazines available in the hopes that some old codgers will take up roost there on a regular basis, kinda like in the old days in feed/hardware stores etc.
Anyway, good luck to you.
Maybe have a picnic table or something out front with a bunch of American Rifleman magazines available in the hopes that some old codgers will take up roost there on a regular basis, kinda like in the old days in feed/hardware stores etc.
Anyway, good luck to you.
lemaymiami
Member
Well said Rice... Our Crime Prevention folks used to recommend that the store's name, address, and ph. number be conspicuously posted next to every phone in the store. Under stress it's just plain nice to have something to recite that's right in front of you. Can't remember how many store vics later reported that they "knew something was wrong" when they first saw the guy or guys that eventually held them up but didn't call because they weren't sure. We used to say "call when it doesn't feel right" and that we'd sort it out if it was nothing.... That's not bad advice for convenience stores -but we had several stores in my town didn't have phones, though. The employee had to step outside to use the pay phone (this was before the spread of cell phones to everyone older than four...). Having your local police/fire number pre-loaded in everyone's cell phone is handy these days even with the advent of 911...
riceboy72
Member
Agreed, lemaymiami. During the worst of the worst with stress, something as simple as remembering your address or phone number can be the most difficult thing. Also, make sure you have a dedicated land line and don't just rely on cel service to the store. I assume you'll have a land line to do credit card transactions, etc, and having an actual phone in the office or hidden behind the register can be a valuable tool, too.
JustinJ
Member
Could you elaborate on that a little more? Are you not liable for the actions of the employees with their firearms if they are NRA certified or is it just that the insurance is willing to cover a civil suit? And if so up to how much?
Mr Gunsmith
Member
Well after a few days of tending to other matters I return & see more advice. Thank you all for the input. I especially like the communication with the local police info. Beings this is predominantly a resort/vacation community, with only a couple thousand residents at it's peak, we enjoy the atypical ideal of everybody kinda knows everybody & information travels fast.
@JustinJ
Here is how this is going to work with my insurance carrier. If each employee who chooses to have a firearm on their person completes the NRA certified training, everybody has agreed to do so, my liability will be limited if the unthinkable should occur. I'm going to clearly post signs that warn of defensive measures in place on the property & with the security cameras to verify events my carrier assures me, & I've got it enumerated into my policy terms, that my coverage won't be canceled or altered & they assist with any civil liability claims. I do pay for this coverage mind you but it's in my view necessary. As far as how much expsoure to liability suits, NC has laws in place that limit liability claims in the event of a crime. I'm not sure the total amounts but it's a comfort to know that is available too.
@JustinJ
Here is how this is going to work with my insurance carrier. If each employee who chooses to have a firearm on their person completes the NRA certified training, everybody has agreed to do so, my liability will be limited if the unthinkable should occur. I'm going to clearly post signs that warn of defensive measures in place on the property & with the security cameras to verify events my carrier assures me, & I've got it enumerated into my policy terms, that my coverage won't be canceled or altered & they assist with any civil liability claims
. I do pay for this coverage mind you but it's in my view necessary. As far as how much expsoure to liability suits, NC has laws in place that limit liability claims in the event of a crime. I'm not sure the total amounts but it's a comfort to know that is available too.
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Mr Gunsmith
Member
Oh & to those that have asked...
My business is called Daltons General Store. We are in Lake Lure, NC if you should want to stop by & say hi. Ask most any of the locals in the town proper & they can tell you exactly how to get there since it's been a landmark here since 1937! Many owners have come & gone, though I think I'm gonna hang onto her (I like the old place & the regulars that have started hanging around), but the name has stayed Daltons out of tradition. I'd be glad to shake hands with any & all.
My business is called Daltons General Store. We are in Lake Lure, NC if you should want to stop by & say hi. Ask most any of the locals in the town proper & they can tell you exactly how to get there since it's been a landmark here since 1937! Many owners have come & gone, though I think I'm gonna hang onto her (I like the old place & the regulars that have started hanging around), but the name has stayed Daltons out of tradition. I'd be glad to shake hands with any & all
.
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Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Thanks much for the invitation - next time we're up that way (my wife's parents live in Montreat), we just might drop by and visit. Since my dad ran a little country store while I was growing up, we might have some things worth discussing.
Maybe I missed this, but why handguns for everyone? No love for the good ole pump shotgun under the counter? Cheap, effective, no licensing and such required, and you can just leave it there. Ammo is cheap enough that you can take people out to practice with it a couple times a year.
It may not be ideal if a crack team of ninjas is trying to rob the store, but as mentioned, the gun shouldn't be your entire security plan.
It may not be ideal if a crack team of ninjas is trying to rob the store, but as mentioned, the gun shouldn't be your entire security plan.
My first thought when I started reading this was "Why not just have a few pump shotguns behind the counter and such?" as well. Much cheaper, and to have 1 or 2 long guns that you teach all of your employees to use is MUCH easier logistically and legally. A sub $200 Maverick, Norinco or H&R would be just fine. If a lot of your employees are maybe a little too small or recoil shy to use the shotgun, maybe use 9mm Carbines or ever ARs/AKs instead.
That said, I would still of course encourage your employees and customers to carry 24/7, and it would be quite nice of you to help them out in getting CCWs and the training and hardware in whatever way you want. But I would make carrying a personal choice, and have a simpler long gun or a few in the store as well.
If you get all of our employees to carry a gun to defend themselves, their families, and you customers, at work and not, all the better.
That said, I would still of course encourage your employees and customers to carry 24/7, and it would be quite nice of you to help them out in getting CCWs and the training and hardware in whatever way you want. But I would make carrying a personal choice, and have a simpler long gun or a few in the store as well.
If you get all of our employees to carry a gun to defend themselves, their families, and you customers, at work and not, all the better.
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