Can NRA Training Survive the NY Lawsuit?

[Craig_AR]

This is a discussion I'd like to see over on the NRA Instructors' Forum, but I am sure it would not be allowed there as too political.
My core concern: Is anyone developing contingency plans for the survival of NRA training programs and instructor certifications if the New York case threatens the very survival of the NRA?
Existing problems, apparently related to the NRA financial mess:
1. The NRA Training office has a staff of only 4 people.
2. That office has no direct responsibility for managing the publication of training materials, or ths supply stock of training items (e.g. instructor shirts & caps, posters, cards, dummy guns and dummy rounds, etc.) and award certificates and pins.
3. The staff does not have the staff and push needed to update training materials and get them published on a timely basis. Approval of new versions has to go through the NRA General Counsel office and them managed by a totally separate publications office. The GC office is obviously swamped with the lawsuit(s).

Most firearms instructors maintain NRA certification, even if they rarely teach an NRA class, because of the way NRA training is recognized in many state laws or regulations. However, that institutional recognition is already under fire in New York and Virginia, and possibly other states.

On a personal level, I am willing to train using NRA curriculum, USCCA curriculum, or my own content. I prefer USCCA content over NRA's, but I prefer the nature of NRA slide decks over USCCA's too-wordy slides. As a relatively novice instructor, I lean toward the two nationally recognized curricula over my own, simply because of experience and reputation.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Thakns for listening.

 

[CapnMac]

As you point out, it's a complicated question.
Not least of which for how, in many jurisdictions, NRA training is the mandatory (or statutory) minimum (New York State has not yet faced up to this conundrum).

Further, the 'other' 2A advocacy groups out there are not nearly large enough to expand out into training operations (some are not staffed to even consider such things).

Because NRA has been around for so long, and did all the work, no one much gave the issue a second thought. Even those that did, could find no simple answer to stand up in its place, and so the problem languished, unaddressed.

It needs addressing, too. And sooner rather than later (even actually well past-due, really). I wish I had a better answer. I will likely want a wiser and more sage solon than I.

 

[CoalTrain49]

If the NRA goes under as an organization, and it probably will, my private range will have to devise another way to test people on range safety and qualification. They use NRA instructors.

It's a pretty big deal.

 

[bearcreek]

Most firearms instructors maintain NRA certification, even if they rarely teach an NRA class, because of the way NRA training is recognized in many state laws or regulations. However, that institutional recognition is already under fire in New York and Virginia, and possibly other states.

Some of the states are moving away from the NRA monopoly, fortunately. Is there anything else in the laws of any state besides CCW classes that mandates training from one, specific private organization? Always been a bit surprised that that's even legal, to be honest. State mandated monopolies aren't supposed to be a thing. As more and more states go to Constitutional Carry, I predict this will become less and less of an issue.

 

[bearcreek]

If the NRA goes under as an organization, and it probably will, my private range will have to devise another way to test people on range safety and qualification. They use NRA instructors.

It's a pretty big deal.

Do the NRA instructors use NRA curriculum? I'm an NRA instructor but have never used their curriculum. I only got the certification because it was required by my state at the time.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Do the NRA instructors use NRA curriculum? I'm an NRA instructor but have never used their curriculum. I only got the certification because it was required by my state at the time.

I don't think they all do but I'm not sure what will take it's place as a certified instructor when the NRA is dead and gone. Maybe the state will come up with a certification. My range requires NRA membership. I just renewed and had to provide proof of that and the fact that I wasn't a restricted person. Carry permit or FFL was proof. I've maintained my CPL since 1990 just to have something that proved I wasn't a restricted person. WA state is no mans land now.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Well, to begin, I think you guys may be eulogizing the NRA a little too prematurely, but I also never understood what NRA training was viewed as the end-all, be-all, gold standard. If there is profit in creating/running a nationally recognized alternative to NRA, someone will fill the void.

But to refocus on the original question, even if NRA itself doesn't survive in NT, I won't at all be surprised to see a "rebirth" of the NRA in another state, and, if not that, I won't be surprised if someone doesn't buy the rights to NRA training materials and continue that line of work "under new management."

 

[Craig_AR]

Maybe the state will come up with a certification.

California, New York, and Virginia are each in the process of doing just that, using their law enforcement trainer certification steps as the process. California is already under way; Virginia only has it as a bill passed in one house and under consideration in the other now; I dont recall where the NY bill is in their process. Given the makeup of the Virginia legislature I expect it ot pass, but not sure if the Republican governor will be successful in a veto, or if he will even try.

 

[bearcreek]

I don't think they all do but I'm not sure what will take it's place as a certified instructor when the NRA is dead and gone. Maybe the state will come up with a certification. My range requires NRA membership. I just renewed and had to provide proof of that and the fact that I wasn't a restricted person. Carry permit or FFL was proof. I've maintained my CPL since 1990 just to have something that proved I wasn't a restricted person. WA state is no mans land now.

In Ohio, where I was an instructor, the rule was that you had to be certified by a "national gun advocacy organization". At the time, the NRA was the only organization that fit that description that offered certifications. As far as I know they still are the only one, but I hope that will change at some point.

 

[toivo]

NY State did a handy one-two punch to prospective pistol permit holders by (a) requiring 18 hours of pre-certification training and (b) refusing to recognize NRA training credentials for the instructors. As far as I can tell now, only former or current LE are allowed to give the training. Needless to say, there's currently quite a backlog for people waiting to get trained.

 

[DoubleMag]

If the NRA goes under as an organization, and it probably will, my private range will have to devise another way to test people on range safety and qualification. They use NRA instructors.

It's a pretty big deal.

but I also never understood what NRA training was viewed as the end-all, be-all, gold standard. If there is

And...last post #10... ''NY State did a handy one-two punch to prospective pistol permit holders by (a) requiring 18 hours of pre-certification training and (b) refusing to recognize NRA training credentials for the instructors.''


Yes yes, absolutely. It's an issue, and if all NRA certs become void it should start with that's state's respective LEO agencies, FIRST. Almost all use NRA verbiage, safety rules, aiming-trigger pull criteria etc., NOT loosely linked training.

Instructor Lt. Ned ''OK new cadets, 1st things 1st, we will cover safety. Turn to page #2 in your packet.''

pg.2 is....crossed out in large parts! (notice before & after strikeouts, ''removed by legal dept as, no longer valid''


Signed, <OoOPs>

 

[4v50 Gary]

Do the NRA instructors use NRA curriculum? I'm an NRA instructor but have never used their curriculum. I only got the certification because it was required by my state at the time.

They're supposed to if they want to teach the NRA course. If not, they're on their own (liability wise).

 

[CapnMac]

Is there anything else in the laws of any state besides CCW classes that mandates training from one, specific private organization? Always been a bit surprised that that's even legal, to be honest. State mandated monopolies aren't supposed to be a thing.

It's more a case of the Statute will specify things like "instruction by NRA-certified instructors."

Which can appear in several place in State Code.

Like Law Enforcement Range Instruction can mandate a training certificate from NRA.
The CCW instructor qualifications may also include this.
What constituted a "legal" gun range--public, private, or LE--must meet NRA established standards.

It's not exactly a monopoly so much as a "handy external agency we can dump responsibility upon in our written laws." Also, the NRA pre-existed the bulk of the legislators, so they just "fell back on" the pre-existing structure and organization. It's like relying upon a river to be a political boundary, despite the fact that nature will move a river willy-nilly.

Further, as pointed out above, any number of "less free" States are imposing training requirements on firearms owners--often merely just to buy, let alone carry. Many of those polities have not bothered to define what that training is, or who will give it, nor what qualifications are wanted. Much of that is rooted in legislator ignorance--they have no idea what "gun training" is or ought to be, but they want it, and right now, if not last week sometime.

 

[CoalTrain49]

NY State did a handy one-two punch to prospective pistol permit holders by (a) requiring 18 hours of pre-certification training and (b) refusing to recognize NRA training credentials for the instructors. As far as I can tell now, only former or current LE are allowed to give the training. Needless to say, there's currently quite a backlog for people waiting to get trained.

That would almost seem like the state is making it doubly hard to get a pistol permit.

 

[wayneinFL]

In Ohio, where I was an instructor, the rule was that you had to be certified by a "national gun advocacy organization". At the time, the NRA was the only organization that fit that description that offered certifications. As far as I know they still are the only one, but I hope that will change at some point.

States vary on this. In Florida an NRA instructor can sign off that you have safely discharged a firearm. There are other avenues- law enforcement instructors, for example. If you have military service, a DD214 meets the requirement for a permit.

I have a North Dakota permit and their instructors are licensed/certified by the state- NDBCI.

They're supposed to if they want to teach the NRA course. If not, they're on their own (liability wise).

Florida doesn't have a requirement for a curriculum. Every CCW course you see here is a course someone made up on his own. Sure seems like it would be safer to run someone through a basic pistol or first steps course. If there's a problem, the lawyers are looking at the NRA instead of the instructor, range owner, etc.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Well, the jury returns to deliberations today, so the verdict should be available soon.

But having verdicts is not the biggest issue.

Even if the three executives still on trial, and the organization itself, are all found guilty of all charges, we can't really anticipate what penalties will be imposed. We know what James has requested, but the nature of judges and juries being what they are (particularly in blue jurisdictions), the penalties could vary wildly. And the penalties are what would really matter.

Personally, my guess is that the charges against WLP, Phillips, and Frazer have traction, and guilty verdicts are likely. Verdicts against the organization itself, less so. My thinking is that charges against the organization could be seen as an outgrowth of retaliation, mismanagement, corruption, and inadequate governance overseen by the executives.

As a result, penalties imposed on the executives could be significant. But even if the organization itself is found guilty, penalties on it would likely be less.

In fact, in March 2022, Joel Cohen, the judge overseeing the cases, ruled that even if NYAG James' accusations were all accurate, they were not so grievous as to require the dissolution of the NRA. He ruled that such a penalty would infringe on the first amendment rights of millions of NRA members.

(see: https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/02/politics/nra-lawsuit-new-york/index.html)

If dissolution is unlikely, then destruction of the NRA's training program is, too.

I would also guess that the value of the NRA's training credentials would increase, rather than decrease, once WLP's legacy is rooted out of the organization.

We'll see.

 

[luzyfuerza]

@Craig_VA , you also asked for opinions about the value of NRA trainer credentials versus those of USCCA.

I'm an NRA and a Rangemaster instructor. I have no experience with USCCA. My opinions:

NRA credentials have government recognition. But functionally, their courses are not very useful.

I have attended a lot of handgun shooting courses. But the best instructor development training I'm aware of is Tom Givens' Rangemaster instructor certification.

I agree wholeheartedly with Greg Ellifritz: The Rangemaster Instructor Development course "...should be on your “must attend” list if you do any firearms instruction."

Rangemaster Instructor Development Course

Written by: Greg Ellifritz "You can't screw up, not even once, not even a little, because someone's life hangs in the balance."- Tom Givens When I looked back at the notes I took

www.activeresponsetraining.net

Instructor Training - Rangemaster

Firearms Instructor Training Rangemaster has become widely known for its instructor development curriculum. Designed entirely by Tom Givens, this series of courses helps experienced shooters become more effective trainers in the classroom and on the range. Click any of the course titles to learn...

rangemaster.com

And I'm preparing for Rangemaster Advanced and Master training courses. On my own dime.

 

[ilbob]

I took the NRA basic pistol class and the NRA pistol instructor class.

I thought the basic pistol class content wise was ok, but the material was not well organized and there seemed to be a lot of stuff that really did not need to be there. Personally I think the first steps program was good and could well be the gold standard for a minimum level of pistol instruction on safety and basic operation of the firearm, although the idea that it ends without much in the way of trigger time bothers me.

The instructor class was a mess. I heard they cleaned it up a lot after I took it.

The club I belong to started out requiring basic pistol to join. Then they decided some of the basic pistol instructors were not real good so said it has to be a basic pistol class taught by the club instructors. Then they opted for a much shorter format they made up themselves which emphasizes actual shooting. I think it is a good option.

 

[alfsauve]

CMP has taken over the NRA Bullseye and Action pistol competitions. Probably rifle ones as well, but I’m not plugged in on that side. Wonder if their BOD might consider training as well.

 

[luzyfuerza]

This just in:

The NYAG's lawsuit against the NRA has been decided.

WLP has been found guilty of mismanagement and misuse of charitable funds by a jury, and has been ordered to return $4.3 million to the Association. The jury also recommended that WLP be removed from his position as EVP of the NRA. The judge will determine whether to permanently bar WLP from any future leadership roles in the NRA during an upcoming bench trial.

Phillips was likewise convicted, and ordered to pay the NRA $2.0 million. The jury found no cause to remove Frazer from his position.

As mentioned above, there is no "death penalty" for the Association itself.

Presumably, the training department will not be impacted.

Loading…

www.cnn.com

 

[toivo]

As mentioned above, there is no "death penalty" for the Association itself.

There are those of the anti-gun persuasion that are cheering this as a death blow to the NRA, not realizing that the judgement requires LaPierre to repay the organization for money he was judged to have used improperly.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Judge Cohen ruled that malfeasance by Wayne LaPierre and others was a private harm against NRA Members and Donors and that it was not the kind of public harm that would justify dissolving the group. The proper fix appears to be to bar LaPierre from control and for him and another person to pay back to NRA about $6 million.

New York AG instead of dissolving NRA may have made it stronger.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I hope it does become stronger.

But this will only happen if the Association rids itself of WLP's legacy of cronies, mismanagement, and waste. And refocuses on its missions of teaching safe shooting and Second Amendment advocacy.

Otherwise, like the Hydra, cutting off one snake head will only leave room for two more to emerge in its place.

 

[Craig_AR]

The current Board of Directors appears to be still poisoned by the presence of an Executive Board who allowed and assisted WLP and Phillips to engage in badness, Until the Board gets cleaned out and new procedures straightened out and actually followed, the organization will not be made whole. Reading the details of the General Counsel's history as a lawyer and as an NRA employee leads me to believe he needs to be gone, too. My impression on the GC is that he was not professionally developed enough to sit in that position and was simply unable to assert his authority to put the brakes on WLP's malfeasance.

 

[BJung]

I use to be an NRA instructor but never used it. Instead, I just taught people on the side. A NRA Training Program is very important because of the NRA. I would be as big a mistake I think as Sears giving up on its catalog department. Training is important politically because it is a way to retain our shooting base and deter the Liberal Gun Control Mindset.

Why leave the NRA to control the Program from the top down? If the NRA fails to expand it, the local level activists should promote and expand it themselves with levels of training, fun, or whatever.