Can someone help

K

KY DAN

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A young man(age 21) told me a tell of woe as he tried to buy and handgun in Indiana while being a resident of Kentucky and told me federal law says they had to sell him that pistol.

I informed he he was wrong and fed law in no way shape or form suggests or implied that.

I want to print the actual law off and give it to him to read and understand so he's not passed and spewing non sense.

Can you all point me to the right place
 
18 U.S.Code section 922 (b) (3). This was originally added by the Gun Control Act of 1968.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—​
​
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​
 
A young man(age 21) told me a tell of woe as he tried to buy and handgun in Indiana while being a resident of Kentucky and told me federal law says they had to sell him that pistol.
Click to expand...
Tell the young man that he doesn't know federal law so he needs to stop talking about federal law as if the words mean anything when he says them. Tell him that the dealer who wouldn't sell him that handgun does know federal law and kept him from becoming a federal felon and from becoming ineligible to ever own a firearm again. Tell him that he needs to learn his limitations or he is going to get himself, and potentially others into a lot of trouble of the kind that doesn't ever go away.

It's not super simple to just look at federal law and see what's going on.

In general if you buy a gun out of state and bring it back to your state of residence you have committed a federal crime. There is, however, an exception.

Exception:
IF you buy a firearm directly from a dealer in a face to face transaction​
AND it's legal for you buy it and own it in both the state where you are purchasing it and your state of residence​
AND the firearm is a rifle or shotgun​
THEN you can buy it out of your state of residence legally and take it back to your state of residence.​

The exception clearly does not apply to handguns so you can not legally purchase a handgun outside your state of residence. If a dealer were to sell you one, they would be committing a crime for selling it to you and you would be committing a crime for taking it home with you.

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu

(a)It shall be unlawful—​
...​
(3)​
for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section...​
...​
(b)It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—​
...​
(3)​
any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​
 
Buzznrose said:
He can buy it if he is legally allowed to buy a weapon (not a felon, etc.), but he cannot take possession in the other state. The store would have to ship it to an FFL in his home state for transfer.
Click to expand...
Theoretically, a disqualified person (felon, etc.) can "purchase" a weapon (that is, acquire the equitable title). He just can't take possession of the weapon. The determination of disqualification is done at the level of the transferring FFL.

The FFL could, again theoretically, hold it for him until the disqualification was removed (by pardon and records expungement, for example).

In general, the gun laws are focused on "possession" and not on "ownership." This is especially important regarding NFA items. Dealers become bailees for extended periods of time, awaiting bureaucratic approval of the transfer. During that long delay, the purchaser is the equitable owner. The dealer doesn't have the right to sell (or use) the item out from under him.
 
Since I tend to like the older handguns anyway having an 03FFL (Curio & Relic) license has helped on occasion, but not all FFLs accept the 03 FFL since there isn't an online method of verification like exists for the other classes of FFL licenses. In those cases I simply accept their position and look elsewhere. Life is to be enjoyed and fruitless arguments seldom seem enjoyable.
 
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I wonder how long it will be before the gun shop makes an “Idiot customer of the week” skit about that exchange and puts it on You tube? 🤪

In all honesty, it almost sounds to me like the know it all may not be mature enough to be a responsible gun owner yet. He certainly has a long way to go before he is a knowledgeable one. No one likes being around such fountains of inexperience and hubris with guns in hand, the results of such experiences are rarely enjoyable.

He has many years ahead if him, hopefully some of your tutelage will wear off and he will slow his roll. I know I began to learn a heck of a lot more when I shut my yap and opened my eyes and ears. :thumbup:

Good luck and stay safe.
 
AlexanderA said:
Theoretically, a disqualified person (felon, etc.) can "purchase" a weapon (that is, acquire the equitable title). He just can't take possession of the weapon. The determination of disqualification is done at the level of the transferring FFL.

The FFL could, again theoretically, hold it for him until the disqualification was removed (by pardon and records expungement, for example).

In general, the gun laws are focused on "possession" and not on "ownership." This is especially important regarding NFA items. Dealers become bailees for extended periods of time, awaiting bureaucratic approval of the transfer. During that long delay, the purchaser is the equitable owner. The dealer doesn't have the right to sell (or use) the item out from under him.
Click to expand...
Not everywhere.

From gun hating California:

CA PC 29800 (a) (1) Any person who has been convicted of a felony under the laws of the United States, the State of California, or any other state, government, or country, or of an offense enumerated in subdivision (a), (b), or (d) of Section 23515, or who is addicted to the use of any narcotic drug, and who owns, purchases, receives, or has in possession or under custody or control any firearm is guilty of a felony.

To gun friendly Idaho:

CHAPTER 33
FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS
18-3316. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF A FIREARM. (1) A person who previously has been convicted of a felony who purchases, owns, possesses, or has under his custody or control any firearm shall be guilty of a felony and shall be imprisoned in the state prison for a period of time not to exceed five (5) years and by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000).

With 50 State, multiple local jurisdictions AND Federal laws governing firearms, never assume a law here applies to a transaction there, nor that a Federal law isn’t more lenient than a local one. Unlike the kid in the OP’s post who didn’t do his research, always consult the most recent laws where you live to be sure you stay out of the pokey.

Stay safe.
 
AlexanderA said:
18 U.S.Code section 922 (b) (3). This was originally added by the Gun Control Act of 1968.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—​
​
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​
Click to expand...
If he is on active duty orders and stationed in Indiana, while still a resident of Kentucky. He can legally purchase it. Also, you can legally claim residency in multiple states and purchase a firearm in said state as long as you are legally a resident there.

What constitutes residency in a state?​

For Gun Control Act (GCA) purposes, a person is a resident of a state in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that state. The state of residence for a corporation or other business entity is the state where it maintains a place of business.

A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the state in which his or her or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one state and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby state to which they commute each day, then the member has two states of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the state where the duty station is located or the state where the home is maintained.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a)(3), and 922(b)(3); 27 CFR 478.11]
Click to expand...

What constitutes residency in a state? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

For Gun Control Act (GCA) purposes, a person is a resident of a state in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that state. The state of residence for a corporation or other business entity is the state where it maintains a place of business. A member of the Armed...
www.atf.gov www.atf.gov

May a person who resides in one state and owns property in another state purchase a firearm in either state?​

If a person maintains a home in two states and resides in both states for certain periods of the year, they may, during the period of time they actually reside in a particular state, purchase a firearm in that state. However, simply owning property in another state does not alone qualify the person to purchase a firearm in that state.

[27 CFR 478.11]
Click to expand...

May a person who resides in one state and owns property in another state purchase a firearm in either state? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

If a person maintains a home in two states and resides in both states for certain periods of the year, they may, during the period of time they actually reside in a particular state, purchase a firearm in that state. However, simply owning property in another state does not alone qualify the...
www.atf.gov www.atf.gov
 
Sounds like the "man" just received bad information and is mistaken. I've been around long enough to see most active members on this forum, including myself, "think" we knew for a fact what we were talking about with regards to federal or even state law only to be proven wrong and be educated by other members.

I commend the OP (@KY DAN) for doing the right thing by educating a young fellow gun owner. A few members here, including myself, needed to actually see the text of the law or case law to change our minds on what we thought we knew too.
 
KY DAN said:
A young man(age 21) told me a tell of woe as he tried to buy and handgun in Indiana while being a resident of Kentucky and told me federal law says they had to sell him that pistol. I want to print the actual law off and give it to him to read and understand so he's not passed and spewing non sense.
Click to expand...
.....you don't need to show him anything. Whoever the dealer was that refused to sell him the firearm, should be enough proof.
 
The practical way that residence in a state is usually proven is through a driver's license. It's no longer possible to maintain driver's licenses in more than one state. (Florida, I believe, was the last state to allow this, and they've discontinued the practice.) So, if you're buying a gun in a secondary state in which you have a residence for part of the year, you have to prove it by other means (such as utility bills, etc.). This is a hassle and some dealers won't be bothered.
 
AlexanderA said:
The practical way that residence in a state is usually proven is through a driver's license. It's no longer possible to maintain driver's licenses in more than one state. (Florida, I believe, was the last state to allow this, and they've discontinued the practice.) So, if you're buying a gun in a secondary state in which you have a residence for part of the year, you have to prove it by other means (such as utility bills, etc.). This is a hassle and some dealers won't be bothered.
Click to expand...
The REAL ID Act and the Drivers License Interstate Compact put the kibosh to that. I have a buddy who lives half the year in FL and the other half in NC. He uses property tax records and utility bills in NC.
 
Miami_JBT said:
The REAL ID Act and the Drivers License Interstate Compact put the kibosh to that. I have a buddy who lives half the year in FL and the other half in NC. He uses property tax records and utility bills in NC.
Click to expand...
Yes. My brother-in-law owns homes in both Florida and Maryland. He has to be careful to spend at least 183 days during the year in Florida -- and be able to document it -- so as to avoid paying Maryland income tax. And obviously buying guns in Florida is easier than doing so in Maryland. But still, maintaining two homes is way more expensive than just one. In the end he's just outsmarting himself.
 
He just can't take possession of the weapon.
Click to expand...
In this case, the actual offense, per federal law, would be taking it back to his home state of residence across state lines.
 
JohnKSa said:
Tell the young man that he doesn't know federal law so he needs to stop talking about federal law as if the words mean anything when he says them.
Click to expand...

:thumbup: What a great sentence, JohnKSa!

... and the term "federal law" can be replaced by myriad different things referring to those poor benighted and/or confused souls who are declaiming about such misunderstood "facts".
 
JohnKSa said:
In this case, the actual offense, per federal law, would be taking it back to his home state of residence across state lines.
Click to expand...
That's right. But getting back to the situation in the OP, this is where things get confusing. The wording of the law is to blame:
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed ..... dealer........to sell or deliver—​
But, we all know that the out-of-state dealer can sell him the gun (if he chooses to do so), in the sense of taking his money and writing him a receipt. It's just that he must deliver it through an in-state dealer in Kentucky.

This apparent contradiction is resolved when we remember that gun laws are about possession and not about equitable title.
 
AlexanderA said:
Yes. My brother-in-law owns homes in both Florida and Maryland. He has to be careful to spend at least 183 days during the year in Florida -- and be able to document it -- so as to avoid paying Maryland income tax. And obviously buying guns in Florida is easier than doing so in Maryland. But still, maintaining two homes is way more expensive than just one. In the end he's just outsmarting himself.
Click to expand...
Yes, I lived that scenario.
2-year job in the second state, driver's license in 1st state.
Brought a copy of my lease and power bill to 2nd state gun store, put lease address on 4473 and bought a gun.
jmo,
.
 
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