Car Chases--Why Not Shoot The Engines?

[Cosmoline]

We just had a tragic fatality when a car thief fleeing police plowed into a car at an intersection. The APD officers were trying to shoot at the driver beforehand with their side arms, but as with 99% of other cases where officers try to hit a speeding driver with a handgun bullet, they failed. The target is too smal, too fastl and too well protected in the cab for a handgun to nail.

And we've all seen many, many helicopter videos of stolen cars driving over tires spikes only to drive on for many miles on the rims alone. Modern cars are so well made you can still speed on the raw metal. So that's no good.

It got me thinking, as a technical more than legal matter, what would a high-powered rifle round do if fired through the hood into the engine block? The engine is a much bigger and easier target to hit than the driver. Has anyone seen how far a .30'06 bullet will cut through an engine? Would a bullet stop the vehicle quickly? I don't know enough about cars to say one way or the other.

 

[Sam]

Highly unlikely that you would stop the engine with 1-2 rounds. Hard to locate the engine through the sheet metal. Hard to reach the vitals in any case. There are a lot of things on an IC engine that would stop it if shot but the probablility of landing a bullet in any one are real small. Even busting a cylinder is no guarantee of a stop. A shot low through the oil pan will certainly do the job but like heart shots, they can go a long way without oil or coolant.

Few departments are likely to like you shooting a vehicle or it's driver under those circumstances in any case. Just follow with the helo till he stops. Gonna run out of gas anyway.

Sam

 

[rocky]

should take em out like the CG does with drug smugglers. 7.62 burst, then get out the .50 BMG to shoot the engine . J/K . too bad they can't do that though.

 

[KriegHund]

.50 BMG.

They are devoloping remot control cars that use electronic signals to run under the cars hood and shut it off.

 

[Cosmoline]

aren't most car engines just made from aluminum?

 

[rero360]

my team leader carried a shotgun when he was over in Iraq, he said that slugs work great for killing cars, and the driver for that matter. not that I would want a cop to be shooting from one car at another at high speeds, to dangerous for everyone, I agree follow with the choppers till he runs out of gas.

 

[Standing Wolf]

If the cops are behind a car, it's a trifle difficult to hit the motor.

 

[Taurus 66]

We just had a tragic fatality when a car thief fleeing police plowed into a car at an intersection. The APD officers were trying to shoot at the driver beforehand with their side arms, but as with 99% of other cases where officers try to hit a speeding driver with a handgun bullet, they failed. The target is too smal, too fastl and too well protected in the cab for a handgun to nail.

aren't most car engines just made from aluminum?

There you have it: If bullets are not getting through the sheet metal doors or side windows to the driver, a bullet is going to have a tougher time piercing enough into an engine block to have any real stopping power.

 

[Lupinus]

Very hard to stop an engine, this isn't the movies where a few rounds from a 9mm will blow up a car.

One- Depending on thecar, aiming to hit the engine is hard esspecialy with the smaller engines we see a lot of today. even more so when you are talking about vital areas of the engine. and you are moving.

Two- Engine blocks are pretty solid things. Most handguns simply wont do serious damage to an engine block. Pumps, hoses, etc they could seriously damage, but the block itself will hold up prettly well to most any pistol fire. You need something with a lot more power then a standard issue 9mm or 40S&W to punch through the block.

Three- Even after you get through the block no sure thing it will stop. If you get right into the cylinder that isn't even a sure thing. Ever heard of a miss? Plenty of cars have them. Its where your car isn't running on all cylinders because one isn't igniting or getting poor partial ignition. Shooting a car engine certianly isn't good for it but it takes a long time unless you have a very big gun.

Sure the coast guard does it to boats but look whats used, they use a 50 cal rifle with AP or Incindiary I can't remember which rounds. That aint exactly standard issue. Now shooting an engine block with AP rounds out a 50 cal will do the job but I don't recall many patrol cars having that handing or being able to easily do that, also marine engines are often much different then car engines, often much lighter built.

Lastly you are likly to hit other things. Brake cylinder, power steering pump, etc. These are things you don't want a car doing 80 to loose for the same reason you don't want to tap a guy doing 80 to make him spin out.

 

[Lupinus]

aren't most car engines just made from aluminum?

Only high preformance engines in high end cars to my knowlage. That and aftermarket engines like Jeg's. Most engine blocks are I believe steel or cast iron. Now intake manifolds and stuff are much more likly to be aluminum, but the blocks are a differet story. Even so depending on the area of the block you are talking possible several inchs esspecialy on a big engine. Even an inch think of good solid aluminum like the kind used in aluminum blocks would hold up alright in my view to most standard issue police weapons.

 

[Cosmoline]

I know handguns are out, but I'm asking about a high powered rifle round to an engine block. Has anyone actually tried it on an old engine and see what kind of penetration they get?

Again I don't want to get into legalities or department policies of this. And I'm not asking about the strategy issues. I'm just asking a general gun question re:

a) is it even possible with a high powered rifle and
b) assuming you can get penetration, would it stop the engine

Maybe this is one for the Mythbusters.

 

[Drewtam]

Only high preformance engines in high end cars to my knowlage. That and aftermarket engines like Jeg's. Most engine blocks are I believe steel or cast iron. Now intake manifolds and stuff are much more likly to be aluminum, but the blocks are a differet story.

Most manufacturers have swithced to AL. Even Gm, from thier four bangers to thier gen 4 small blocks V-8s.

Iron blocks are still made, but just aren't standard on passenger cars anymore. Pickups and the like are a different story.

Everytime I read about the military taking an engine out, its always from a burst of some 50 cal, either on a Huey, Blackhawk, or an M2 on a HMMV.

Drew

 

[Taurus 66]

I know handguns are out, but I'm asking about a high powered rifle round to an engine block. Has anyone actually tried it on an old engine and see what kind of penetration they get?

Too risky. Suppose a rifle round goes in one side, clears over the top of the engine, and exits the other side. It's still going to have enough energy to go the distance, perhaps striking a bystander.

It could in theory work, however. Once the hole has been started, the heat and vibrations could cause a hairline crack to travel, like in a windshield.

 

[Cosmoline]

No, I'm not asking the tactical question here. That's why I didn't post this on the S&T forum.

 

[Drewtam]

It could in theory work, however. Once the hole has been started, the heat and vibrations could cause a hairline crack to travel, like in a windshield.

Nah, that would take too long, primary failure would be by one of the following options:

Fast:
Structural damage to the crank, or at least 2 pistons (and or con rod)
Structural damage to the valvetrain
Structural damage to anything in the trans
Damage to the computer
Damage to the fuel delivery (pump, rail, injectors)
Damage to the ignition (plugs, distributor/coil packs)
Slow:
Complete oil loss
Complete coolant loss
Complete fuel loss

 

[UWstudent]

honestly, i'm gonna pick up a free POS car that runs, turn it on and put a few .308's in the engine and see if it still runs, just for YOU guys..

if it's still running, im gonna try the 12 gauge slug

 

[Sunray]

Even for the best military sniper(LEO shooters aren't snipers), hitting just the block of a vehicle moving at high speed, reliably, would be an extremely difficult shot. Even then, one shot wouldn't do much and you'd still have a ton or so moving at high speed.
Most rifle calibre bullets would just get smashed flat upon hitting an engine block. Al or not. The block may be cracked, but that won't stop the engine right away.

 

[Mad Chemist]

.50 BMG.

They are devoloping remot control cars that use electronic signals to run under the cars hood and shut it off.

I saw something similar, it used an EMP to disable a vehicle. Is this what you saw?

 

[GregGry]

Here is my take on it..

Most modern 4 banger engines have aluminum blocks, although some are still iron. Be it aluminum or iron, its going to take more then a 9mm to stop the engine. In a v8, if you were shooting through the grill, the bullet would likely hit the water pump or another accessory before it even remotely hit the block. If the round was able to penetrate the crap thats bolted onto the front of the engine, it would then have to penetrate the block, and somehow do catastrophic damage to a rod, or the crank. The odds of that happening are slim, you would be looking at high power rifle rounds. Remember, the round would likely have to go through a radiator, a heat exchanger (a small radiator like unit for air conditioners) then the stuff bolted on the front of the engine, then through the block. No 9mm will do that, I have serious doubts that even a 44mg could. Even if it sprung a water leak, you could likely drive on for 20 to 30 minutes before it siezed up completely.

Also, as far as why police don't shoot the engine during a chase, thats easy. When a perp runs from the police in a car, the police are behind, not infront of. You don't want to get to close to the car your chasing, because you might not be able to turn fast enough if the perp switches on you. Not to mention it will likely make the perp drive faster, and you don't want that. Positioning a sniper infront of of the car would be impossible, the driver could mike 1,000 diffrent turns, who knows where to position the sniper. Not to mention having a sniper shoot at a moving car with police cars (and other people) behind it is asking for diasaster. For 98% of of car chases, keeping distance, using stop strips, etc, and just waiting for the perp to crash is effictive. The only time thoes methods aren't effective, is when someone has something like a tank. And even then the guy who did that managed to get stuck, and shot to death (I guess he didn't lock the tanks hatch).

 

[GregGry]

Also, look at this image:

This is what your typical ford engine looks like (v8) minus the supercharger. The round would have to pass through one of thoes pullies, and even if the belt got shot off, the car would still run off the battery

Not to mention look at this:

The blue part is block wall. To reach a piston you would have to go through about 3/4 of an inch of strong aluminum, about 3/4 of an inch of coolant, and then it would be in the cylinder (that is after the round likely went through the radiator, the heat exchanger, and pulley or two). Even then, it could pass through the cylinder and the engine wouldn't stop. You would lose 1 cylinder maybe, but it would likely still keep going for a short time. There is no way thr round would pass through the piston either, most engines have 3 to 4 inch pistons, that can be forged aluminum. If the round will go through about 7 inches of forged aluminum, then it might be able to pass through the front block wall, and one piston. I have heard people claim a .50bmg round can go through 4 pistons and the block wall, and exit out the back. To do that your talking about going through 1 foot of forged aluminum, and over 4 inches thick of aluminum block wall. I doubt it would, especially with the equivelent of over 6 inches of water it has to go through to do it.

I don't doubt that a .50bmg could go through a v8 engine block if the shot was placed above the cam (in a OHV engine) and below the intake, it would only have 5 to 7 inches total of aluminum/steel to go through, no water, and no forged parts.

 

[LAK]

A .357, .41, .44 mag and a fullhouse 10mm with very tough and hard bullets will very likely cause catastrophic damage to many automobile engines past and present. I have cracked engine blocks with a 357 and a .41. Many medium bore rifle rounds will destroy an engine right quick.

But it is not just a matter of capability. One of the problems is potential shoot-throughs or complete misses which might richochet off still on a sort of ballistic trajectory. The other is richochets off curved or other engine or ancilliary equipment parts.
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[GregGry]

A .357, .41, .44 mag and a fullhouse 10mm with very tough and hard bullets will very likely cause catastrophic damage to many automobile engines past and present. I have cracked engine blocks with a 357 and a .41. Many medium bore rifle rounds will destroy an engine right quick.

But it is not just a matter of capability. One of the problems is potential shoot-throughs or complete misses which might richochet off still on a sort of ballistic trajectory. The other is richochets off curved or other engine or ancilliary equipment parts.
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http://ssunitedstates.org

Its true you might be able to crack a block, but people have driven with cracks in the block of their engines for years. Also, a dead on hit to the block, without realistically having the round pass through a radiator, pullies, heat exchanger, etc can't be used to compare a shot to a engine in car. A .44mag would likely still crack the block due to the impact force, (provided it hit the block dead on after geting into the engine compartment) but a crack in the block is not likely a immediate "will kill" scenario.
I remember welding a cast iron block that had one entire side split open by over an inch, from the coolant freezing. The guy got the car to me, with it having no coolant, and that was a 10 minute drive. It was running hot sure, but it goes to show that even if half of a side of block is split off, it wont stop the engine.

 

[Cosmoline]

Fascinating stuff.

I know engines can still run with cracks. At least one of my heads is cracked and has been for almost a year now

 

[Jeff White]

There aren't any hand held small arms capable of reliably stopping a car or truck. Even 7.62x51 machine guns aren't reliable in that role.

We don't want the police using AT4s or RPGs, and most anti-armor munitions of that type aren't designed to be used against something as fast as an automobile anyway.

You're really getting into the realm of things like the M242 Bushmaster 25mm chain gun on the M2 and M3 Bradley and LAV-25 when you talk about shooting a moving vehicle.

Jeff

 

[Taurus 66]

A .357, .41, .44 mag and a fullhouse 10mm with very tough and hard bullets will very likely cause catastrophic damage to many automobile engines past and present. I have cracked engine blocks with a 357 and a .41. Many medium bore rifle rounds will destroy an engine right quick.

But it is not just a matter of capability. One of the problems is potential shoot-throughs or complete misses which might richochet off still on a sort of ballistic trajectory. The other is richochets off curved or other engine or ancilliary equipment parts.
-----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Keep in mind the differences between cast iron and aluminum. For example: Cast iron is brittle, alloys make it less brittle, but regardless would still give up a critical amount of structural integrity to a well placed shot from the high energy impact of any material. Aluminum is malleable and aluminum alloys are less malleable. You do not want high malleability in your engine block because though it would be great for defeating multiple gunshots, the engine cylinders, pistons, rods, etc (due to heat, pressure and vibration) would warp or become mis-shapened, stretched, compressed, and all would not be good.

Train couplers are cast iron "only" instead of aluminum or some other lighter weight metal. Cast iron either keeps the connection between two cars or breaks (makes or breaks). There's no stretching, not so much as 0.0001" swaging over 1 million route miles.

Airplanes will have to retire after so many years of service because the aluminum within will stretch out to the point of danger. If only the structure of the aircraft could be made of cast iron ... but then again it would weigh a lot more, so this would be impractical.