Carry at gun shows.

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The more loaded guns going back and forth in the hands of sellers and buyers means a greater chance of a negligent discharge.

I agree- Why should ANY loaded guns be going back and forth in the hands of sellers and buyers?

Gun shows are places of commerce and items must be examined and they only way to do this is to establish a standard that all weapons entering the show are unloaded and safe. If this was anything else I would agree with your comments but it's not.

The funny thing is that Sportsman's Warehouse, located just down the road from the gun show, is also a place of commerce, frequently with the same clientele base. They follow this guidance:

IN-STORE FIREARMS POLICY

For the safety of our patrons and staff, all un-holstered firearms entering Sportsman's Warehouse must be cased, unloaded, and presented to Customer Service at the front of the store. If you plan on removing your firearm in the store, it must also be cased, unloaded, and presented to Customer Service at the front of the store. Thank you for your cooperation and patronage.

Where allowed by law, we do permit open and concealed carry of sidearms, provided the sidearms remain holstered.


What's the difference?
 
I agree- Why should ANY loaded guns be going back and forth in the hands of sellers and buyers?



The funny thing is that Sportsman's Warehouse, located just down the road from the gun show, is also a place of commerce, frequently with the same clientele base. They follow this guidance:

IN-STORE FIREARMS POLICY

For the safety of our patrons and staff, all un-holstered firearms entering Sportsman's Warehouse must be cased, unloaded, and presented to Customer Service at the front of the store. If you plan on removing your firearm in the store, it must also be cased, unloaded, and presented to Customer Service at the front of the store. Thank you for your cooperation and patronage.

Where allowed by law, we do permit open and concealed carry of sidearms, provided the sidearms remain holstered.


What's the difference?

The difference is you don't have every Tom, Dick, and Harry who might see your "concealed gun" asking what do you have , how much, I want to see it. Why you bring it to the gun show if you did not want to sell? I have seen it happen and have kicked people out for that same thing.

People make piss poor choices when pressure and money is involved.

Like I said this is the real world logic I have developed in my first hand encounters as a employee of a gun show promoter.
 
Is this common policy for gun shows?
It is around here. The commonly cited excuse I've heard is that the venue's insurance requires it for gun shows. Unintentional discharges are distressingly common at such events and they are trying to eliminate that problem.

There's one large venue in this area that they post for gun shows but where carry is allowed for the jewelry shows held in the same building. Sort of a sad commentary on the demonstrated lack of responsibility by gun owners.
What's the difference?
I think if a venue felt like they could rely on attendees to obey the sign, they would be ok with a policy like that. The problem is that there are just too many people who feel like their carry gun is for show and tell and feel free to whip it out and show it off. And who feel like they know better than the business owner/operator and can ignore any policy that they don't like.

In a gun store the staff to customer level usually is pretty high compared to a gun show which means that they can keep an eye on things and shut things down if the stupid level gets too high. Also, every store staff member has the authority to tell the customers to stop being stupid or even to ask them to leave if they won't be responsible.

In a show there are thousands of attendees milling around and the vendors don't really have the authority to tell attendees what to do. It's the promoter's responsibility to do that but they don't have anywhere near the staff required to put someone at every table to enforce their policies and make sure that the stupid level stays at a tolerable level.

In short, I think there's a huge difference.
 
The difference is you don't have every Tom, Dick, and Harry who might see your "concealed gun" asking what do you have , how much, I want to see it. Why you bring it to the gun show if you did not want to sell? I have seen it happen and have kicked people out for that same thing.

People make piss poor choices when pressure and money is involved.

Like I said this is the real world logic I have developed in my first hand encounters as a employee of a gun show promoter.

Hopefully, those "people" will follow your policy and I will follow mine. Everybody goes home at the end of the day satisfied.
 
I'm with you KY DAN.

Reads like some of our members should start up their own no holds barred show.
Maybe they should spend some time at a gun check table to see some of what goes on
and to witness just how many CC folks lack basic handling knowledge of their carry gun.

Our local collectors' group show insurance is 2000 per show.
Think I'll ask our agent how much it will be if we forego any attempt to
zip tie or discourage loaded concealed guns to keep from trampling on 2A rights. LOL

I agree- Why should ANY loaded guns be going back and forth in the hands of sellers and buyers?
Maybe because there are more than a few careless and/or ignorant gun owners who attend shows.
Most of the dangerous sellers get weeded out.

JT
 
Hopefully, those "people" will follow your policy and I will follow mine. Everybody goes home at the end of the day satisfied.

I think it is best that we do that, I understand what you are saying and in a perfect world the gun would stay holstered and no danger would be offered to anyone at all much like your department store example. The world is not perfect and people are flawed and we in the business have to work around that in order to provide both commerce and entertainment for people in the gun Community enjoy while watching out for our bottom line.
 
Hopefully, those "people" will follow your policy and I will follow mine. Everybody goes home at the end of the day satisfied.
I think the mindset behind this sentiment is similar to the finding that when surveyed, all drivers consider themselves to be above average drivers. Of course that's impossible since by definition there must be a huge number of drivers (probably about half of them) who are worse than average.

Anyway, there's never been an unintentional discharge at a gunshow by someone who considered themselves to be incompetent. People who consider themselves to be incompetent don't trust themselves with firearms. The problem is always the people who "know" they are competent. That's why we have policies like the one under discussion and why they end up being applied to everyone, not just the incompetent/irresponsible people.

Imagine if a gunshow posted a sign that said: "If you are a responsible adult, competent in the safe handling and use of firearms, and who understands that carry firearms are not for show and tell, you are welcome to carry in this venue. All other persons must disarm and have their firearms unloaded and zip-tied." Do you think there would be a bunch of people self-identifying as incompetent or irresponsible lining up to be disarmed? :D

If you want to run a gunshow you can make whatever policy you want to make. If you want to go to someone else's gunshow then the proper thing to do is to abide by their policies, just as you would expect others to abide by your policies at your gunshow, or when they visit your business, or visit your home.
 
Reads like some of our members should start up their own no holds barred show.

I have no problem with the inspection and safe checking of weapons being brought into the facility for gun show purposes.

Maybe they should spend some time at a gun check table to see some of what goes on
and to witness just how many CC folks lack basic handling knowledge of their carry gun.

And that somehow applies to all carriers? Like I stated, I don't play the patronize game.

Would gun show promoters willing to accept liability for the safety of all patrons from the their personal vehicle to the venue front door by providing comprehensive and visible security in the parking lots and surrounding area? Can we get an armed escort to and from the show?

If we are expected to follow your policy of being completely disarmed, then I would expect appropriate reciprocity.
 
Would gun show promoters willing to accept liability for the safety of all patrons from the their personal vehicle to the venue front door by providing comprehensive and visible security in the parking lots and surrounding area? Can we get an armed escort to and from the show?

If we are expected to follow your policy of being completely disarmed, then I would expect appropriate reciprocity.
Ironically, if you asked the promoter, they would say that the policy is in the interest of the safety of the attendees since an unintentional discharge endangers everyone at the event.

As far as safety from the parking lot to the front door, I'm not aware of any gunshow that prevents carry from the car to the front door. They just require that you have your gun unloaded and zip-tied before entry.
 
Sounds like some folks here work a second job writing advocacy statements over at "Moms Demand Action". Just change out a few words, and BAM, statements on the evils of the concealed carry scourge.

As far as safety from the parking lot to the front door, I'm not aware of any gunshow that prevents carry from the car to the front door. They just require that you have your gun unloaded and zip-tied before entry.

I am not a fan of active weapons manipulation in the approach to the venue doors- that's when AD and ND events actually do occur with real frequency. Keep them concealed and holstered, just like Sportsman's Warehouse or Cabela's guidelines.

I think the mindset behind this sentiment is similar to the finding that when surveyed, all drivers consider themselves to be above average drivers. Of course that's impossible since by definition there must be a huge number of drivers (probably about half of them) who are worse than average.

Anyway, there's never been an unintentional discharge at a gunshow by someone who considered themselves to be incompetent. People who consider themselves to be incompetent don't trust themselves with firearms. The problem is always the people who "know" they are competent. That's why we have policies like the one under discussion and why they end up being applied to everyone, not just the incompetent/irresponsible people.

Imagine if a gunshow posted a sign that said: "If you are a responsible adult, competent in the safe handling and use of firearms, and who understands that carry firearms are not for show and tell, you are welcome to carry in this venue. All other persons must disarm and have their firearms unloaded and zip-tied." Do you think there would be a bunch of people self-identifying as incompetent or irresponsible lining up to be disarmed? :D

If you want to run a gunshow you can make whatever policy you want to make. If you want to go to someone else's gunshow then the proper thing to do is to abide by their policies, just as you would expect others to abide by your policies at your gunshow, or when they visit your business, or visit your home.

My driving record over 30 years documents zero at fault accidents. My carry record over a similar timeframe is the same. Like I said, I don't do patronizing very well.
 
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Wow. I think im better off continuing my streak of never going to a gun show if the attendees are that hostile to the people who are trying to keep everyone safe.

Maybe this is a sign that the yahoo factor at gun shows is real; we pay a lower premium to secure a million dollar policy for a three day motorcycle off-road grand prix with 1,300 pro and amateur rider entries than a gun show promoter does to insure the show for the patrons and sellers to walk around and barter guns.

Sad.

Stay safe.
 
.455_Hunter said:
Sounds like some folks here work a second job writing advocacy statements over at "Moms Demand Action". Just change out a few words, and BAM, statements on the evils of the concealed carry scourge.
It's got nothing to do with gun control. Companies have rules and if you want to do business with them you follow their rules. If you don't like their rules you are free to do business with other companies. You don't get to re-write their rules or decide which ones apply to you or don't apply to you--that's just not how it works.
I am not a fan of active weapons manipulation in the approach to the venue doors- that's when AD and ND events actually do occur. Keep them concealed and holstered, just like Sportsman's Warehouse or Cabela's guidelines.
I'm not a fan of active weapons manipulations in public either but:

1. That's not really relevant to the comment I responded to. You stated that their policy disarmed people from car to the front door. It does not.

2. There's nobody out there trying to compel people to go to gunshows. Just as with any business, people are free to choose whether or not to patronize them based on any number of criteria, including their policies.

As far as the implication that AD/ND events do not actually occur inside gunshows, that is absolutely false. They do--because people choose not to abide by the policies that they don't feel should apply to them--or because they are incompetent. Or both.
My driving record over 30 years documents zero at fault accidents.
Good for you.

But I'm not sure if you understood what I meant. Let me try to clarify. I was pointing out that people usually do not grade themselves below average when it comes to competence. Therefore a sign that is supposed to apply only to incompetent people would be ineffective because everyone would just assume it didn't apply to them. See what I mean now? ;)
 
It's got nothing to do with gun control.

The arguments utilized are similar, regardless of motivation.


Companies have rules and if you want to do business with them you follow their rules. If you don't like their rules you are free to do business with other companies. You don't get to re-write their rules or decide which ones apply to you or don't apply to you--that's just not how it works.

You would be hard pressed to find someone who tries to "follow the rules" with regards to third party polices while engaging in their daily lives than myself- standing in the correct line, being under 20 items in the grocery speed checkout, parking in the appropriate business spaces, etc. However, when it has ZERO impact on their operations, I am not sacrificing my safety or my family's safety just to appease a liability lawyer. Sorry- that is my personal policy and it's not open to adjustment.

I'm not a fan of active weapons manipulations in public either but:

1. That's not really relevant to the comment I responded to. You stated that their policy disarmed people from car to the front door. It does not.

In actuality, it does on de facto basis.

2. There's nobody out there trying to compel people to go to gunshows. Just as with any business, people are free to choose whether or not to patronize them based on any number of criteria, including their policies.

Just a question- Does wearing a t-shirt with a large bold printed four-letter word under your sweatshirt violate a mall's "No vulgar clothing" policy, even if it can't be seen? Yes or no.

As far as the implication that AD/ND events do not actually occur inside gunshows, that is absolutely false.

I never indicated that they didn't occur. But people doing unnecessary weapons manipulations also cause AD/ND's, especially in non-ideal situations.

Good for you.

You are the one who brought up driving, not me. ;)

But I'm not sure if you understood what I meant. Let me try to clarify. I was pointing out that people usually do not grade themselves below average when it comes to competence. Therefore a sign that is supposed to apply only to incompetent people would be ineffective because everyone would just assume it didn't apply to them. See what I mean now? ;)

Oh, I know exactly what you mean, and I don't agree. We are just going to keep flailing around and around the mulberry tree, so have a good evening.
 
Safety is always the reason for restrictions.

It's got nothing to do with gun control

You're literally advocating taking guns away from people and disabling them for "safety".



People do not understand how close to death they really are when they stand around inside a gunshow due to 1qty person's POOR decision and actions.

Being in the same room as someone who has a gun is not "close to death".

The safest gun in the world is the one that stays holstered. Holstered guns are always safe, as are guns that aren't being handled.
 
You're literally advocating taking guns away from people and disabling them for "safety".
You're literally ignoring the very clear explanation I provided in the same paragraph you pulled that sentence from.

What I'm saying that if you want to go on someone else's property you need to follow their rules. If you don't want to follow their rules, you don't go on their property. In exactly the same way you would expect someone to stay off your property if they weren't willing to follow your rules.

Furthermore, I haven't said I was in favor of such rules. I have simply explained why they exist and admitted that I can understand the reasoning of people who make them. What I'm advocating is just common courtesy and respecting property rights.
The arguments utilized are similar, regardless of motivation.
Since motivation is key, your point is--well, it's not really a point at all, is it. :D
You would be hard pressed to find someone who tries to "follow the rules" with regards to third party polices while engaging in their daily lives than myself- standing in the correct line, being under 20 items in the grocery speed checkout, parking in the appropriate business spaces, etc. However, when it has ZERO impact on their operations, I am not sacrificing my safety or my family's safety just to appease a liability lawyer. Sorry- that is my personal policy and it's not open to adjustment.
1. Nobody's saying you have to follow their policy--unless you want to be on their premises. If you don't want to follow their policies you are absolutely free to be somewhere else. Just as you would expect someone to follow your policies and rules in your house/on your property or at your gunshow (if you had one). You are just as entitled to your personal policies are they are to their public ones. But on their property, their policies are what matter, not yours--just as someone can't come into your house and make their own rules contrary to yours. Where did you come up with the idea that you can go anywhere you want and regardless of where you go, everyone is required to comply with your personal policies and preferences? That is simply not remotely realistic. If you had a business, would you allow people to come into it and make their own policies that were counter to your posted rules?

2. Nobody is telling you to sacrifice your safety or your family's safety. If you feel unsafe at a venue with such a policy, you are certainly free to stay away.

3. Since nobody goes to a gunshow with a loaded gun thinking that they are going to have an impact on the operations of the gunshow, the fact that any given person avers that their actions won't have an impact doesn't mean anything. It's not like people say: "I'm going to take my gun to a gunshow today and have an unintentional discharge." Even saying it makes it obvious how silly that idea is. Besides, the policy isn't: "Don't bring a loaded gun on the property unless it won't have any impact on our operations."
In actuality, it does on de facto basis.
In actuality, it most certainly does not. Even in your case you COULD carry from your car to the front door--it just wouldn't be your preference. Surely you understand the difference between preference and prohibition, right? A person who prefers not to eat broccoli is not prohibited from eating broccoli--they don't eat it because they don't want to, not because there is a rule against it.
You are the one who brought up driving, not me.
Let me try again. The example of drivers rating themselves above average is an analogy. It is an example of human behavior that provided insight into the topic at hand. The point of the analogy was the behavior of humans, particularly as it applies to self-assessment, not the operation of vehicles. Driving itself is, of course, totally irrelevant to this topic. Does that help?
Just a question- Does wearing a t-shirt with a large bold printed four-letter word under your sweatshirt violate a mall's "No vulgar clothing" policy, even if it can't be seen? Yes or no.
Interesting, It seems that you do understand the general concept of analogies. Unless you are trying to say that a person can have an unintentional discharge with an item of clothing and potentially injure or kill another person and I do not believe that is what you mean to say at all.

Here is the answer to your question. Go to the mall, and at the entry point, show the mall employee the shirt and ask them if wearing it under a cover garment violates their policy. You can ask them to give you a simple yes/no answer, if that is your preference.

You can use exactly the same approach at the gunshow with your loaded carry gun.
 
I can't remember every instance but at a 2008 show in Biloxi MS, a sheriff deputy sat at a table outside the front door and asked everyone entering if they were bringing in a gun. If you said "yes", you had to clear it and he logged your ID. At a show in eastern MA in 2014 timeframe, no one asked a thing and you just walked in.
 
Every indoor public range I've been to has bullet holes or bullet scars at the shooting benches, within 3 to 5 feet in front of the benches on the walls, floor and ceiling and the target hangers are always bullet scarred. Given that, I can't imagine why (sarcasm) gun show organizers want all firearms checked, empty and zip tied at the door.
 
Gun shows are essentially a 'special circumstance' when it comes to gun handling. There is essentially no safe direction to point a firearm, and it's difficult to follow most of the four rules of gun safety at a show.

That being the case, unloaded firearms make it safer (but not completely safe) when folks handle, point and otherwise fondle guns in a crowded room. I don't like it, but I get it.


Larry
I have the same trouble with handling a gun at lgs. I'm either pointing the gun at my feet or at the ceiling at an off angle in order to avoid a scolding from aimming at the clerk or a beating from pointing a shotgun at man's wife that's looking at the used rifles next me.
 
Requiring all guns to be unloaded and zip-tied is a minimum preventive measure for the gun show promoters. (Unintended discharges are a thing at gun shows.) Just look around at your fellow attendees. Would you trust every single one of them to be as safety-conscious as you? I wouldn't. Even with a nominal "unloaded" rule, I see plenty of safety violations at gun shows (people sweeping other people, aiming at them through mounted scopes, etc.). Plus, zip ties routinely get removed for buyer inspections. There is an element of risk in attending gun shows. I'm surprised that the promoters don't require everyone to sign a liability disclaimer when going in.

Complying with whatever safety rules are stated is the least you can do. This is not a case where your "right to carry everywhere" applies. Every unintended discharge at a gun show puts another nail in the coffin of gun rights.
 
I understand how oxymoron it is to not Carry at guns shows. But I understand it once I've seen the people at gun shows. Newbies, idiots and oddballs that would accidently shoot someone or themselves or try to fireback at someone if it does happen.
 
Insurance for venues like gun shows specifies no loaded guns allowed with exception of the police officer or county deputy at the door inspecting and ziptieing guns brought in to sell or trade.

Few years back I was in line to pay my entrance fee and get hand stamped when a guy brought in a handgun he had inherited, but he had no use for it. It had a round in the chamber and a loaded magazine. The officer cleared the gun, ziptied it through the barrel and ejection port.

Another rule is no loose (unboxed) ammo, and definitely no trying ammo in a gun to see if it fits.

Added: I have attended a few gunshows where the vendors were allowed to carry. I can't recall a show that did not have at least one armed officer or deputy, so I saw no need to be personally armed walking the aisles.
 
The two gun shows I have attended this year were put on by different promoters but has one thing in common, a NO LOADED GUNS INSIDE sign posted on the entry door. You were pretty much on your own if trouble broke out at the fisrt. The last one had hired security. A 5' nothing chubby gal at the door and a fair sized guy wandering around outside. In all the area gunshows I have attended over the years this is first to ever have security. That the show was put on by an outfit from northern NM might have been the reason. We have very little crime here compared to their part of the state.
 
I just took a CC class since I've moved to a new state. (Well, the state's been around since 1796, but I just got here a few months ago. :) )

As with EVERY SINGLE training class I've ever been in that taught gunhandling-military, law enforcement or civilian-there were no loaded firearms allowed in the training room. This was because there were going to be folks handling weapons learning new techniques, and that, along with the crowded nature of the classroom, meant some of the four rules of firearm safety were going to be tough to follow. The instructor used dummy guns except when explaining each pistol's function for that very reason.

Do I like disarming? No. In fact, it makes me somewhat tense. But there are places it simply makes sense, and a gun show is one of those places. I prefer knowing that guy on the other end of the show testing out that scope by looking at my ear is doing so with a generally, most-likely, best-effort to ensure it's actually empty gun. And if I couldn't handle disarming, I wouldn't go.

Larry
 
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