Carrying a 1911 in condition zero

[zahc]

I've seen threads where people were scared to carry a 1911 in condition one. However, having grown up on the point-and-click XDs, M&Ps and Glocks, I just bought my first 1911, and one of the things that strikes me is that fiddly manual safety. If it weren't there, the manual of arms would be the same between all my guns.

If one was to get a holster that covers the trigger and carry with the safety off, one would still have the grip safety, as well as the halfcock notch and (on a series 80) the firing pin block still.

Crazy?

 

[BigG]

If you look at the earlier Browning autoloaders (1900, 1902), you will notice they don't have the manual safety, for the most part. I guess it depends how much you trust yourself, whether you will carry your 1911 cocked and unlocked. YMMV

 

[Ala Dan]

I'm with my friend and Old 'Dixie neighbor Big G on this one; as its all 'bout trusting ones self~!

 

[Iggy]

I guess it depends how much you trust yourself, whether you will carry your 1911 cocked and unlocked. YMMV

I have been carrying one off and on for 40 years and constantly for the last 25 and I still don't trust me!!!

 

[DogBonz]

Just use the safety

This may seem a bit alien to you because you grew up on XD’s, Glocks, etc, but I grew up on 1911’s and it was the only style handgun that I shot for 10 or so years. If you train and are used to a 1911, flicking the safety off is part the draw. I don’t even think about it any more. When the muzzle is at about 45 degrees, and the thumb is coming over the top, it just naturally turns the safety off.

 

[BigG]

I guess it depends how much you trust yourself, whether you will carry your 1911 cocked and unlocked. YMMV

I have been carrying one off and on for 40 years and constantly for the last 25 and I still don't trust me!!!

I'm with you, bud - I don't trust either of us! Too easy to forget what you are doing! ;>

Hello, Ala Dan, my bud!

 

[1911ShooterTJ]

Crazy?

Only a little

Again as others have said, if you trust yourself… Remember that a 1911 is a single action trigger pull, and the force needed to create an AD with the safety off simply by trigger pull is much less than the force needed to do the same on say a Glock. I’m not sure I would rely on the grip safety alone. But to each his own.

You might not be used to the safety now, but practice, practice, practice! It will become second nature to you. A holster which covers the trigger and guard area is something I wouldn’t compromise on.

Also, the halfcock notch is NOT meant to be a safety device in terms of keeping it carried that way intentionally.

 

[Geno]

Good thread! I hate only one aspect of the 1911 and 1911A1...the manual safety. To me, it is an "unsafe"ty!

I carry all of my 1911s with the magazines fully loaded, chamber loaded, hammer cocked and the manual safety off. The 1911A1 (model-day 1911s) have a "grip safety. This safety is ultra-reliable. It is the same sort of function as the Glock safety. Don't touch it, it won't/can't fire. Furthermore, the 1911 firing pin is inertia-driven. I recall reading that it takes something like a drop of about 8 feet on concrete to set one off, and then, only if the grip safety also somehow manages to disengage...unlikely.

I wish the 1911A1 manufacturers would go back to a 1910 design! Just my opinion! Until then, I guess if I want one, I'll just have to have one custom-made. Anyone else would like the same?

Doc2005

 

[DogBonz]

Doc

I would like to respectfully disagree. The part that I would do away with would be the grip safety. Grip safeties are more likely to cause the gun to not fire when you want it to than the thumb safety malfunctioning. The thumb safety is disengaged on the draw. The grip safety can interfere if you are in a hurry and not holding the pistol correctly. I know that the bottom line is that the only safety that is 100% is to keep your finger off of the trigger, but I like the manual safety. The USP like (most of them) have no grip safety but a manual safety. I think that this is the best design for most purposes.

 

[daysleeprx]

Depends how you shoot I guess. I shoot my guns thumbs high, so my natural grip would automatically disengage the thumb safety anyway.

 

[zahc]

Also, the halfcock notch is NOT meant to be a safety device in terms of keeping it carried that way intentionally.

Of course...but the point is, running with the thumb 'safety' off doesn't change the various safeguards in place against malfunctional discharges, such as the half cock notch and the series 80 FPB.

I carry a M&P 9c every day. The trigger is really not that heavy, the hinged 'trigger safety' seems even less effective and more pointless than that of the glock, and it has no grip safety. I can't help but think of my 1991a1 in condition zero as having all the firing pin and drop safety mechanisms of my M&P, just with an extra grip safety that blocks the trigger and a slightly lighter trigger pull. Carried the way one carries these modern pistols...in a sturdy holster that covers the trigger guard...It would seem perfectly safe to me.

Yet, something tells me that if the safety is there, I have to use it.

Depends how you shoot I guess. I shoot my guns thumbs high, so my natural grip would automatically disengage the thumb safety anyway.

I'm still not sure what I'm supposed to do with my thumb. Putting it on top of the safety feels awkward and I'm afraid of getting slide bite since I have (and like) a GI model.

 

[Joe Demko]

The thumb safety was added, as I understand it, at the behest of the military. Browning's original design didn't include it. The question is whether Browning intended for the pistol to be carried with a round in the chamber or not. Given that military holsters at the time were full-flap affairs, often made from pretty hard leather, he might have had that in mind.
Provided you are sufficiently careful, you can carry the pistol in "conditon zero" w/o mishap. I carry my 1911 cocked and locked, but I admit that I carry it that way because that is how I was instructed to carry it and I continue out of habit.

 

[Geronimo45]

There was a thread a while ago where somebody was asking folks if they'd had their 1911 thumb safety come off while carrying. Several other people said the same thing had happened - when they were gonna put the gun away for the night, the safety was off. They had no NDs as a consequence. A decent holster will make sure foreign objects don't get in the trigger guard.

I don't reckon it's crazy. I imagine there's a way to pin the safety into position - you don't want it coming on by accident, I reckon.

 

[BigO01]

I would never carry with safety off just because it is too easy to train yourself to do so with it on .

I pick up or draw a 1911 with finger in the guard lightly touching the trigger and thumb on the safety ready to disengage if needed , it takes a split second to fire either intentionally or accidentally . I want that safety on to help me make sure it was intentional .

One thing that is related , when practicing don't always bring the gun up and fire , if you do your muscles and brain will remember that and you may shoot someone when it wasn't needed .

Bring the gun up and make a decision to fire or not fire and practice doing both .

You can't take a bullet back once it is fired and saying "I'm sorry" is pretty piss poor after killing someone when it wasn't justified .

 

[ECLIPSE45ACP]

I say it is there, use it. When I draw, I click the safety off as I am pulling from the holster.

 

[mljdeckard]

I do find it interesting to observe the split between people who think Glocks are unsafe because they don't have a traditional manual safety, and people who think that a manual safety is overcomplicated and therefore unsafe.

If you are used to drawing and disengaging the safety, it should never be an issue. I don't like autos with a 'positive' safety, because they add an additional motion to the firing process: moving your thumb back into firing position AFTER flicking the safety 'up'. When I fire my 1911, I rest my thumb on the safety, so the process isn't costing any time or coordination. I could go back to a Glock or an XD, but I don't see myself going back to a Beretta (mostly) because I despise the positive safety. (Although I had a T-92 with a regular safety that I had bad luck with as well.)

I don't see myself carrying with the safety off anytime soon. It took me a long time to get over the willies in condition one. I often use a fanny-pack, and once I opened it to fing the safety off. I couldn't remember if I forgot to engage it, or if my moving around had pushed it off. I now carry hammer-down with that rig. All my others, where I can see and check the safety anytime I need to I carry condition one. (In Utah, concealment isn't required.) Sure I could leave the safety off, doing so is merely stripping away one layer of safety. But on the other hand, why should you ever strip away a layer of safety? While you're at it, you could pin the thumb safety and cut off the trigger guard. Still safe, right?

 

[MrAcheson]

One thing to keep in mind is that the grip safety only blocks trigger movement on most 1911s. The thumb safety is the real safety that actually stops sear movement for drop safety.

The thumb safety was added, as I understand it, at the behest of the military. Browning's original design didn't include it.

It's the other way around actually. Browning's early prototypes, like the BHP that he developed afterwards, did not have the grip safety. The grip safety wasn't added to the prototypes until 1908. Prior to this they did have the manual safety.

 

[zahc]

If you are used to drawing and disengaging the safety, it should never be an issue.

Sure, like when I use a pump shotgun I never even have to think about not putting the safety off, because all the pump shotguns I ever shoot have a crossbar safety behind the trigger.

If all you ever carried were SA autos, I'm sure a similar level of confidence would be in order. But I sometimes want to carry my 1911 in addition to my XD 45 or M&P as situation and dress allows.

 

[dwwhite]

one thing that I don't think anybody has mentioned yet,

should your gun be taken away from you, the manual thumb safety may provide you with an extra second or two while the BG (who is probably not familiar with the manual of arms) tries to figure out why it won't point and shoot. Not something you'd want to bet your life on, but definitely a strong possibility,

as others have said, lots of training and the use of the thumb safety becomes second nature, and one day it may just save your hide, whether from an accidental discharge or an intentional one