Carrying a Handgun; ALL THE TIME

[Fat Boy]

I am headed for an attempt to obtain a concealed carry license; I have been working onthis for a while, but am still trying to resolve some concerns.

I have at one time or another owned revolvers of various sizes, and semi autos, even owned a NAA mini-revolver for a while; most of these have been traded/sold for something else...my main point is that I am not new to handgunning-

If I consider carrying routinely, the following concerns are in place:

J-frame or other snub: I really don't like the muzzle blast of any short barrel handgun; it causes me to flinch. Also, j-frames offer 5 rounds- These are great because they can be carried, if necessary in the front pocket of whatever trousers I am wearing at the time.

K-frame or larger: Nice shooters for me, but carrying one ALL THE TIME is problematic for me; I am 6'2" and go about 325lbs (Hence my nickname) which I think would preclude using a "smart carry" system effectively...I can't wear shirts "untucked"; I have to wear dress clothes in my employment, and loafing/working at home finds me in cotton sweat pants, or other casual stuff which doesn't work well with a belt.

Semi-auto: I was raised on a k-frame Smith...I have just never gotten used to the function of a semi-auto. I have tried; shooting 1911's until my hand was red and occasionally bleeding, the CZ97b I shot was a nice gun, but it seemed to flip even more than the 1911, as did a Ruger .45 semi. The only thing that gets close on comfort for me is a Glock either 21 or 30, and I hesitate to admit this, but I am just a bit nervous shooting any semi-auto due to muzzle flip and recoil- Maybe I just haven't worked hard enough on learning? I like the concept of multiple rounds with additional magazines, and the .45 acp, in my opinion, could serve as a good "one round for everything"

I am not trying to present an "unsolveable" problem, but I would like to consolidate my stuff, and get to more of a "one gun" for all things, or at least close...maybe a .45 and a .357 revolver, with a 12 gauge shotgun and Ruger 1022 rifle...

I appreciate your thoughts!

 

[THE MACHINIST]

glock 26 or 27, i have the same body dimensions you have and i carry in a fobus paddle for the last 4 years.

 

[Shadan7]

I'm not quite sure what your question is, FB - but if you're concerned about the problems you face, please rest assured that many others have faced the same or similar and come to some reasonable accommodation. Personally, I like the J-frames for basic protection and you could probably resolve your flinching problem with some good practice sessions - and I carry a 642 in my sweats when I'm going real casual all the time.

A "tuckable" IWB may be a good solution for belt carry, and there are plenty of semi-autos which are very dependable and offer more throw-weight. Then there's going with a jacket or vest designed for concealed-carry (I love my Coronado vest), or a belt pouch or "manpurse", depending on your preferences.

It may take a bit of time, but read up on the concealed-carry forums, start working with one gun, and sooner or later you will find the right combination for you.

Good luck with it!

7

 

[FoMoGo]

I am 6'4" and 300-310 lbs... depending on if its lunchtime or not.
I daily carry a 1911 full sized.
If you fire another 1911, make sure it has the beavertail grip safety.
You may want to look into an IWB holster, and wear it at 4:00 position.
I also carry a 4" N frame.


Jim

 

[1KPerDay]

For ME, a j-frame in the front pants pocket makes it astoundingly easy to carry a gun ALL THE TIME.

YMMV

 

[Sam1911]

I really don't like the muzzle blast of any short barrel handgun; it causes me to flinch ... [SNIP] ... I am just a bit nervous shooting any semi-auto due to muzzle flip and recoil- Maybe I just haven't worked hard enough on learning?

You are a big guy. That's meant as a compliment of sorts. You're large-framed enough that you should be no physical reason (aside from some further complication you haven't mentioned) why the recoil and or "muzzle flip" should be unnerving you that much. There are, however, some very critical technical, procedural, or even mental issues that could be causing you to lack mastery of the weapons.

To put that another way, there are 100s of 1000s of folks -- big, small, guys, ladies, kids, elderly folks -- who are competent and solid handgunners. You need to identify and eliminate, or at least control, the issues that are causing YOU trouble.

Your admission that perhaps more practice is in order is spot on! But, I wouldn't just go buy a few 100 more rounds or whatever and toss them down range. For heaven's sake, don't just pound rounds downrange from a gun that hurts/scares you until your hands bleed! That may have passed for "training" decades ago, but we've come a LONG WAY with training. You can fix this -- you'll just about HAVE to fix this -- without pain/fear/fatigue.

If this is important to you, you need TRAINING. You (must) have developed some bad habits that are causing this. The pain and the fear are not necessary and you can beat them with some work and some training. But we can't see what you're doing wrong and really get inside your technique from here. You really need someone watching you who can correct the issues and get you on track.

Until you find someone to really run you through your paces and personally, one-on-one, correct the errors, you can start to educate yourself.

This is probably the best quick tutorial you'll ever see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48
I would, literally, watch it over and over, practicing with an UNLOADED gun until you're doing the things Todd's telling you to.

When you can recite his lesson verbatim, step it up a bit and fill your head with Mr. Jerry's series of lessons on the proper, MASTERFUL, use of a revolver: http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/smith.html?feedPID=00zG15zm84msK0GbWemanhJ0KNWQYqM4

Now, from what you've said, I've already got a couple of guesses.

1) STANCE:
Watch the vids (I might have already mentioned that) and get your feet, legs, and, most importantly, upper body and arms right. Forget standing like the old time rifle shooters and pistoleros with an erect posture and back arched stiffly. There are reasons for those stances, but they don't have anything to do with controlling a pistol in rapid-fire strings.
Quickly, here's the drill:
a) Feet square to the target. Belt buckle pointing right at it. Shoulders square.
b) Now, bend the knees slightly with most of your weight on the balls of your feet.
c) As you bring the gun up (an art in itself), lean INTO it, forward, so your shoulders are now forward of your body's center line. Don't hunch your neck down much. AGAIN: Lean FORWARD. If you're leaning back the gun is pushing you around. If you're leaning forwards, INTO it, you're driving that gun and controlling it.
d) Bring your arms up so the gun's sights line up with your sight line. Don't lock your arms completely, but you want to have them almost fully extended. The gun should be centered, held evenly with both hands. The arms should make an isosceles triangle. (At some point you may want to try a "Weaver" stance in which the weak hand arm is bent more and is somewhat under the gun, but that isn't optimal and 90% of competitive shooters abandoned it a long time ago. COULD help with recoil control if that's still problematic...which is doubtful.)

2) GRIP:
a) The techniques for a revolver are a bit more complicated (see Jerry's vids!) but an autoloader should be gripped so that its bore (the top of the slide, visually) is directly in line with your forearm. EXACTLY in line.
b) With the trigger finger resting against the side of the frame above the trigger, the gun should be sitting down into your hand just as far as you can get it. You want the bore axis to be LOW to reduce "flip."
c) Extend your arm out to just about full extension (maybe a LITTLE flex), and bring the other hand up to mirror the position of the strong side arm.
d) Wrap your weak hand's fingers around the fingers of the strong hand.
e) Tip the gun up a bit so you can see it from above. The tip of your weak-side thumb should be resting exactly parallel with the tip of your trigger finger on the other side of the gun. (SEE THE VIDS!) If not, rotate your weak hand around your strong hand until it does. Lay your support-hand thumb along the frame of the pistol (parallel with the slide) and lay your strong hand thumb down on top of it (slightly behind). Both thumbs should be pointing down the barrel, at the target.
f) Grip firmly with both hands. Some say 50% of the strength comes from each hand. Jerry says that, with the revolver, 70 % of the support is coming from his supporting hand! What you're going for here is something like PUSHING with the strong hand and PULLING BACK with the weak hand.
g) Your grip should be TIGHT. Not necessarily white-knuckle, shaking and quaking tight, but pretty darned firm. Firm enough that someone who grabbed that gun (just for demonstration purposes) would be able to just about push you over before your grip on the gun broke.

That's just a quick-and-dirty summary, but this is how it's done.

You can beat your problems. You can competently shoot any handgun. You just have to learn to get "on top of them" and ride them, rather then letting them push you around. And this isn't something you should (and maybe even can) do by yourself. Educate yourself and get some help if you can!

Good luck!

-Sam

 

[orchidhunter]

Fat Boy, What you need is a S&W642, it is about as good as it gets for a CCW handgun. Flinch if you want to, just hit the target. With small semi autos, comes trouble. orchidhunter

 

[okespe04]

I think its all about lifestyle. I am new to carrying and am just starting to get used to it. For my attire, work, build ect a little compact auto is all I am willing to carry at this point. In a pocket holster is disappears into my front pocket with ease. Its almost like the only lifestyle change I had to make is grabbing a second wallet when I get dressed in the morning. I know myself well enough to know that anything bigger or more cumbersome would get left at home more often than not. You can argue against the small auto all you want but the fact is a 32 apc in the pocket is better than the .357 mag locked in my nightstand.

 

[Zundfolge]

It doesn't matter what gun you pick.

If you want to carry 24/7/365 just don't scrimp on the leather.

A good, dual clip or dual loop IWB holster on a quality belt will comfortably conceal something like a Beretta M9 or full size USP (or that CZ97 you mentioned) all day long.

Sure a smaller/lighter gun will carry and conceal better, but its the leather that makes the difference.

I guarantee you something small, thin and light like a Kahr P9 carried in an Uncle Mike's nylon IWB holster on one of those cotton/poly old stile military belts you get for $3 will be less comfortable and harder to conceal than a full size 1911 in a Milt Sparks VMII on a good leather belt.


So pick a gun that you can shoot well, then find out if you can get a good carry rig for it. And don't be afraid to spend some coin ... every penny you spend on a good holster will give you a nickel's worth of performance. Also expect to have to wait a few weeks for your holster, most of the best holster makers are making them in their basements in their spare time.

Here's my top 5 choices for IWB holsters (in no particular order).

HBE COM 3 or DC Special (Eric is working on a tuckable version of the DC Special, dunno if its available yet)

Ugly Bald Guy Striker I or Canute (unfortunately not tuckable)

K&D Holsters Thunderbird Defender or Dakota Defender (tuckable)

Comp-Tac Minotaur MTAC or Spartan.

Milt-Sparks VMII (with the clips its tuckable)


And don't forget a good belt. Most holster makers also make excellent, heavy, thick, strong belts that will support the weight of a holster better than some flimsy faux leather thing you would get at Walmart (or even an expensive, supple leather or exotic hide belt you'd get at a fine men's clothier).



Oh, and a final note.

Once you decide you're going to carry 24/7/365 (and frankly I highly recommend you do) you're just going to have to decide that you're going to put up with some slight discomfort at first. Eventually carrying a gun will become like sitting on a wallet and having a watch strapped to your wrist ... it will feel odd and even uncomfortable when it's NOT there.

 

[1KPerDay]

If you want to carry 24/7/365 just don't scrimp on the leather.

I think you mean "don't skimp." If you want good leather, you'll have to scrimp. Particularly if your salary is like mine.

 

[Zundfolge]

I think you mean "don't skimp." If you want good leather, you'll have to scrimp. Particularly if your salary is like mine.

Doh! yes, scrimp but don't skimp

Ok, now I'm going to say something that will likely ignite a few flames directed my way.

If you want to carry 24/7/365 stay away from 100% Kydex IWB holsters.

I'm sure there are a few guys out there packing 24/7/365 with one, but most of the people that will tell you to get a Kydex holster don't wear it all the time.

Kydex doesn't give and it doesn't breathe ... it won't be comfortable in your pants, next to your body all the time. Leather is still the superior material for IWB holsters (note the Minotaur holster has a Kydex body but there's leather between you and it).


I've been carrying a gun in my pants every single day since early 2002.

 

[the foot]

Fat Boy--

Big guy, you can conceal a weapon with no problem.

I was once a young skinny guy carrying a concealed weapon, but since I became an old fat guy, concealment is still not a problem.

Just decide on your method of carry in any situation you will encounter.

At work, if you must wear dress clothes, you may have to resort to pocket or IWB carry. For example, at work I use a J-frame S&W in my front right pocket in a Galco holster.

Outside work, I would seriously consider jettisoning the sweat pants and going with a gunbelt option.

 

[XDShooter07]

From your post it sounds like you want a revolver of the size between a J-Frame and a K-Frame. How about a Ruger SP101. You can choose between a few different barrel lengths and get either shorter or longer or laser grips for it.

 

[Trebor]

Try a K frame with a 3" barrel instead of a 4" barrel.

Really, that 1" shorter barrel makes a big difference.

Also try carrying the gun in different locations on your body. The standard is "behind the strong side hip," but that's not the only place to carry. You can also try in front of the strong side hip (appendix carry) or even cross draw.

Get a GOOD belt and a good holster. That makes a bigger difference then you'd think.

I carry a S&W Model 65 with a 3" barrel in an Alessi Talon clip-on IWB holster just in front of my strong side hip. Every time I put it on I have to fuss with it for just a minute until I find the "sweet spot" where it's the most comfortable. As soon as I find that spot though, I'm good to go for the rest of the day.

It conceals well, is accesible, and is comfortable.

 

[moooose102]

i am a big guy also, not as large as you are now, but i used to be bigger (365 lbs, 6'1"). anyway, the real problem is trying to find a comfortable place to carry, so nobody notices. a revolver is a little more dificult because of the cylinder, but it certainly can be done. like others have said, a GOOD holster is the key. as for an automatic. there are ways of helping the muzzle flip, some firearms have hollow spots out near the front where a competent person could add some weight. a mix of lead shot and jb weld would probably work well for this. you could also go for a longer barrel. or if it has an accessory rail, add either a weight or flashlight to it. any extra weight out at the end will help with muzzle flip. or you could, or have someone make up some reduced recoil (power) loads for practice, and use normal rounds for carry. if you ever NEED to use the firearm for security, you will be so pumped up on adrenalin, you wont even notice the extra recoil. also, several mfgrs make rubber grips for some automatics. that would help as well. good luck in your endevor, i hope the advice you get here helps.

 

[Deanimator]

Even though I lost about 30lb.s last year due to illness, I've NEVER been mistaken for anorexic, even now.

I carry either a Norinco M1911, a Browning High Power, a Glock 19 or a 3" Model 65 Smith EVERY day. I NEVER wear untucked shirts except for exercise.

I have Don Hume IWB holsters for each of these firearms and they work great. They're not designed to be tuckable, but they tuck reasonably well anyway.

I occasionally carry a Chief's Special in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster. This works very well, depending upon the cut of the front pocket of the pants I happen to be wearing.

It's not as hard as you might think. Try a few things to see what works for you.

 

[Sharpie1]

I'm surprised the guy in that revolver video on Sam1911's post is advocating a completely different grip for the J-frame revolver.

He is advocating allowing the thumb of the weak hand to wrap around to the other side of the gun, as opposed to having the thumbs stay together as in the "normal" grip.

 

[Sam1911]

I'm surprised the guy in that revolver video on Sam1911's post is advocating a completely different grip for the J-frame revolver.

"That guy" is Jerry Miculek -- generally considered to be the fastest/best revolver shooter in the world. Just the highlights:

Five time USPSA 3-Gun National Championship
Four time 2nd Chance Bowling Pin Champion
1997 American Handgunner World Shoot-Off Champion
Fourteen time International Revolver Champion
Member of five time winning pro team at the Sportsmans Team Challenge
Three time Masters International Long Gun Champion
Three time USPSA National Revolver Champion
Two time IPSC World Revolver Champion

If he says to clench it between your butt cheeks and pull the trigger with your big toe, I'd work hard to incorporate that in my skill set!

I got to meet him at IDPA Nationals this year (where he, of course, won Enhanced Service Revolver Champion) and he's quite a gentleman as well as an astonishing shot. When he shot our stage I figured I'd finally see in person just how he does those lightning reloads. I can honestly say that I watched it first hand and still have no idea what happened!

I don't know many shooters who are at a level where they wouldn't be better served to just do whatever Jerry says to.

Just as a guess, with a normal grip on a REAL small revolver there is a greater risk that your weak-hand thumb is going to ride forward far enough to get up past the cylinder gap and possibly catch some blast. That HURTS, and with more powerful rounds can even cause serious injury. Wrapping it over the strong side thumb definitely keeps it out of the way and still provides strong support.

But that recommendation did surprise me, too, the first time I saw it.

-Sam

 

[mljdeckard]

Don't let anyone tease you because of what you think is or is not comfortable to shoot. Everyone should carry what they are comfortable with, there's no good reason to try to convince yourself something works for you if it doesn't.

Having said that, my dad is about your size, and recently got his first 1911. It's a G.I model, without the beavertail safety. I was worried that it would bite his hands, but it hasn't.

If you're really just wired to like revolvers better, that's perfectly fine. You're a revolver guy, and anyone who criticizes it doesn't know what they are talking about.

As for recoil and muzzle-flip, yes, it's a reality. Gun designers have been trying to reduce or eliminate it for years. Not going away. What I would advise you, is that bigger, heavier guns have less recoil than smaller guns, because they have more recoil to soak up the energy. Bigger guns are easier to aim than smaller guns. You need to remember that learning to manage recoil and shoot through it quickly is something you're going to have to deal with no matter what gun you choose. If it takes some time and practice, that's ok. In the process of trying different guns and calibers, you may stumble onto a perfect combination that just clicks.

Before I went into the army, I was intimidated by any handgun larger than a .22. A friend of mine let me shoot his brand new Beretta 92, and it just clicked. Great trigger, and after every shot, the sights just bounced right back down to the target. I went to basic training and qualified on that pistol, 40/40. Now, SINCE that time, I've grown away from the Beretta, and I wouldn't prefer to carry one. I went from there to shooting a lot of other guns, and I was able to learn them with a different attitude.

I would give some DON'TS in this situation too. Don't use any caliber smaller than 9mm, use a compensator, or reduced power loads for a defensive carry gun. The compensator may reduce recoil somewhat, but if you ever have to use it in the dark, the flash will be much greater. Reduced power/caliber is like letting kids learn with an undersized basketball. Sooner or later they will have to adjust to using the real thing.

 

[BullpupBen]

Have you considered a Ruger SP101? It's closer to a J-frame than anything else, although definitely bulkier and heavier. This means its going to recoil a lot less, especially on .38's, and they make a 3" barrel version which would have fairly reduced muzzle blast compared to a 2" revolver.

I'm sure you can find someway to conceal it as your pretty big.

 

[S&Wfan]

Hi,

I'm about 275 right now, so I understand what you are going through . . .

First, get over your flinch by getting (if you don't have one) a good .22LR handgun and practice, practice, practice!

Get in the habit of seeing each round go off. If your eyes are not wide open, you flinched!

Second, work with a good instructor to master your stance and grip. A proper firm, and high grip will dissipate the recoil and also reduce muzzle flip of even the nasty kicking .44 Magnum wheelguns!

Third, sign up and participate in every handgun match you can for a while! Don't worry about getting waxed . . . for you will quickly get better and more efficient as you watch seasoned shooters and how they shoot. Plus, you'll learn how to handle stress. Soon you will be right on up there with 'em. The only shooters who truly "lose," are those who won't face their fears and master them!

Fourth, if you want to carry all the time . . . get an "Airweight" (not "Airlite") S&W J-frame. They are only about 15 ounces in weight and are awesome handguns that can be concealed in a front pocket holster quite well.

Mine is ALWAYS in my front pocket . . . even today when visiting our son and his family out of town for his birthday.

I stopped on the trip at a rural convenience store. Parked next to the local cop's car, used the bathroom inside, then came out and talked to the cop for a few moments . . . and wished him a Merry Christmas. No big deal, he didn't "make" my J-frame in my front pocket.

Later in the day . . . LOTS of family pictures of various family members (and his in-laws too). No big deal . . . no one noticed. Then, we took everyone out to the steakhouse. No big deal, that little J-frame NEVER gets "made" . . . and it is my ALWAYS gun.

Do you see it in the attached photo that was made today?

PS: I HAVE some of the other wonderful guns for CCW:

A steel-framed Model 36 snubbie . . . a 3" Model 65 .357 . . . a 2 1/2" Model 19 .357 . . . a 3" barreled Kimber Ultra CDP .45ACP 1911 . . . an aluminum-framed Colt Agent six-shot snubbie . . . but none are as concealable (and thus ALWAYS on me) like the Model 37 Airweight J-frame!

 

[1KPerDay]

Hmmm... I may have to get a T-grip for my 37.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Fat Boy,

If you are used to shooting a revolver, then you may as well stick to that platform. If you are concerned with muzzle flash, there are many factory loadings that incorporate the use of flash retardant powers.
I mostly shoot auto loaders so that is what I carry. I would recommend you carry whatever you shoot best with.

 

[stewa070]

Another fatboy here

310
6'1"

Fat all over not just in the gut.

I can't say much to how you should carry because i carry my taurus pt111 9mm in an ankle rig all the time.

To shooting and muzzle flip it's all in your head. With all due respect

I was trained by a guy who was in SWAT then fbi trained in firearms - he taught me a few things.

To keep it simple you want to hold whatever your shooting with your dominant hand straight out and up to eye level (don't duck down to the sights) Place the gun in the web of that hand. You want to hold your hand up as if to wave at somebody and place the gun in the web with the slide parallel to you and the barrel shooting the sky. If you (and i can't do it either with my gun) can balance the weapon like that then you have the perfect grip. From there grip with your index and bird finger only - the last 2 fingers only make your hand shake when you grip so forget you have em. Make sure they aren't exerting any force on the pistol when you hold it. With your other hand support your shooting hand as you wish (i was told to line up my thumbs almost like a golf grip). Your supporting arm should be slightly bent (and this is where the stability comes from) - pull the gun back at your body with about 70% pressure. The other 30% pressure coming from your shooting hand pushing the gun away from you. It's this push/pull that stabilizes the gun. If you have the grip wrong and your supporting arm is just sitting there then the gun will shimmy and you'll see it clearly. The general rule of thumb is that if your stance is right the range instructor should be able to walk up to you and flip your pistol easily over the front of your hand. Try and see, but if your grip is right then the muzzle flip will be less noticeable. Bear in mind that for guys our size recoil isn't a problem. I assume your problem is that the gun is jumping up a little and you're focusing on that so you flinch as you pull the trigger. This will get better with practice. Good luck and hope you have the rosetta stone handy to translate what i just (simply) told you!

 

[mgregg85]

I carry a P3AT or an XD45 compact all the time unless prohibited by law.