CCW and Boy Scouts of America

[jcramin]

Here is a section right out of the BSA Guide to Safe Scouting.

"Except for law enforcement officers required to carry firearms within their jurisdiction, firearms shall not be brought on camping, hiking, backpacking, or other Scouting activities except those specifically planned for target shooting under the supervision of a currently certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor."

So my question is more of a legal question not a moral question.

Legally can the Boy Scouts of America being a private organization actually force tha rule, if the state I live in has giving me the right to carry my gun execpt where the state or federal law says I can not carry?

Being a private organization they can make their own rules such as the do say if your are a homosexual, or you do not belive in GOD your atheists or agnostics you may not be a BSA volunteer Scout leader or member., also girls may not be a BOY SCOUT they may be in Venturing, but not Boy Scouts. Those facts have been taken to court and BSA has won.

BUT what about when the state government gives you a right to do something, can the BSA take that right away from you?

I am not asking what I should do, because I take my right to carry very seriously and I carry everywhere I can and I obey the laws of the state and noone elses rules unless they are inline with the state rules.

Thanks,
J

 

[Pilgrim]

When you ask for free legal advice, you often get what you pay for.

Pilgrim

 

[jcramin]

Thats why I asked here and didnt go pay an attorney $250 to answer my question. Im sure some attorneys carry guns.

J

 

[JesseL]

The most that the BSA can do about violations of their rules (in the absence of a contract that spells out some other penalty), is to refuse to have anything to do with you.

 

[Henry Bowman]

BUT what about when the state government gives you a right to do something, can the BSA take that right away from you?

State government did not give you a right. They simply gave you a license to be free from prosecution in certain circumstances from a law that otherwise infringes your human right (a right that is also expressly protected under the US Constitution).

When you break a BSA rule, you are not breaking a law or committing a crime. You are simply disobeying a rule that you had agreed to abide by. You can privately agree to give up certain of your rights in some circumstances. This is probably true even thought the 2A says "shall not be infringed." It probably means "shall not be infringed by government." The most they can do is kick you out.

 

[jcramin]

Thanks Henry Bowman I didnt think of it that way but your right. I dont have the right, I just have the license to carry and I guess since the BSA is a private organization they pretty much can make up their own rules.

J

 

[Baba Louie]

As always it's a move to CYA. Should you violate this stated policy, and should anyone be injured as a result, they can state that a violation of their policy inures their not really deep pockets from someone digging in for $$.

But, looking on the bright side, I guess you'd have a chance to practice some real world first aid should the unforeseen GSW occur.

I can remember 4 or 5 weekend overnights each year (we went once a month rain or shine) not to mention annual summer camp, where one or more of the Dad's brought .22's and /or shotguns and allowed us Boys some range time... but this was back in the mid to late 60's, ALL of the Dad's had served in some branch of the military, there were zero mothers involved at the time (insofar as camping and leadership at the Boy Scout level, there WERE Den Mothers at the Cub Scout level) and we practiced junior military woodscraft type skills. At summer camp, the Marksmanship merit badge class was ALWAYS one of the first to fill up, followed quickly by Archery, Swimming, First Aid and Canoeing (that spelling just doesn't look right w/ or w/out the 'e' ???)

BSA policy rules are meant for everyone's safety and guidance. Doesn't mean they're not bent or broken now and then however. Woe be unto any who do so with injurious results.

 

[Axman]

I dont have the right, I just have the license to carry

You misunderstood, the state didn't give you the right, the second amendment guarantees the right.

 

[TX1911fan]

I'm going on a BSA camp this weekend, and I did some checking on rules related to State Parks. I can't find anything that prohibits me from carrying in an LCRA park in Texas, so I think I'll have a gun in my truck at least. I don't care if the BSA decides to fire me as a volunteer scoutmaster.

 

[Mr White]

The national BSA policy may say one thing, but conduct and practices are more directly controlled by the local troops.

If I went on a campout with some yuppie troop from some rich suburb and I got made, I'm sure someone would run off screaming and report me to the Council or National. If my carry gun was revealed at an event involving my son's troop, I'd probably have 4 guys asking me what I was carrying and if I ever tried X brand of ammo.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

The BSA is a prime source of new shooters and runs, bar none, the safest shooting ranges on the planet. They still, by chapter and verse, follow NRA safety protocols paying deference where it is do. They write their policies to the weakest possible link. Everybody does.

I was actually thinking about they would feel about a trained adult carrying a bear country revolver on a 'high adventure' type excursion. I'll bet it happens when needed. You'd have to.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Private Policy

Speaking in the most general terms:

A right is something beyond the authority of a government or private group to abridge. (Semantic Note: government "authority" and "power" are not the same.)

Whether you choose to invoke all of your rights may regulate your membership in a self-selected group. Acceptance as a member of a group is often predicated on your pledge to uphold whatever code of conduct the group has currently agreed to observe.

Groups function through agreements. The by-laws of a group apply to that group. If you don't subscribe to the policies and agreements of a group, then membership in that group is conditional upon their exempting you from one or more requirements of the agreements governing the group.

If you violate the policies of a group, absent a waiver by that group, the risk you run is expulsion or censure.

If it is the rule of the knitting club that no member may wear plaid, and you show up in the McGregor kilt, they are completely with their authority to expel or censure you.

If a club decides that a condition of membership is that all members shall disarm themselves, you must weigh the value of that membership against the value of your right to be armed.

If a rule is unacceptable, and you cannot get the rule changed nor obtain a waiver, your compliance is a matter of your own integrity.

Your rights are still your rights. Their exercise is up to you.

 

[kd7nqb]

I am a scout leader and an eagle scout. I am familier with the policy, frankly I view it no different than an employers regulation. Also BSA still is one of the most effective tools to get new shooters into the hobby.

 

[45Badger]

I don't care if the BSA decides to fire me as a volunteer scoutmaster.

This kind of response drives me nuts (short trip, my wife wouyld say ).

So, what's more important, keeping your word (implied agreement to policy by accepting the position, role, and responsibility) or your right to carry?

Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
and Reverant

If I rembered correctly...........

Not gonna parse the legaility, but question where we have our priorities. If you can't/don't agree to conditons of the volunteer service, I see two honorable options-

1) Honor the policy, and work to change it from within
or
2) Don't volunteer

 

[Correia]

Let me share a little story.

Last year I was asked to stay at a weeklong BSA scout camp. There was probably about 500 scouts. This was in an area in the Uinta mountains that has bears. I knew the no guns rule, and frankly, I treat it like I treat all non legally binding no gun rules.

First day, I'm unpacking in the leaders cabin. Another leader's shirt rides up and exposes his Glock 21. I nod at him, and he hides the gun. I had not met this guy before. He was embarrassed, so I lifted up my shirt and showed him my 1911 so he would feel better. I did not however show him the FAL I had inside my sleeping bag.

So he tells me the story of how last year, one of the troops had taken to leaving food out, and sure enough, it attracted a bear. The bear blundered around in the camp, and wouldn't leave. A fishcop arrived, and with a group of the leaders watching (all supposedly unarmed), shot the bear a single time with a rifle. The bear went down. The fishcop then WALKED up to the just shot bear.

The bear got up right infront of the fishcop. Fishcop was surprised, couldn't get rifle up in time.

About a dozen shots immediatly followed, all from handguns, and the bear went back down. Guns were put away, no questions ever asked.

I love Utah.

 

[Correia]

1) Honor the policy, and work to change it from within
or
2) Don't volunteer
__________________

You forgot #3.

Realize that the rules are stupid, and are there for liability purposes, and live by big boy rules. Trustworthy and cleanly take a back seat to getting gnawed on by a hungry bear.

 

[geim druth]

The scouts are generally very good about guns. 2 years ago my son and I went to Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico. One of the high points of the trek was black powder shooting, I know other treks featured shotgunning. But, scouts and leaders were not allowed to carry on the trail.

Fortunately, our one encounter with a brown bear was resolved peacefully (we stood around and let Mr. Bear go on his way in his own sweet time). Yes, I would have been much more comfortable if I were armed, but I also understand the reasons for the policy.

I grew up in the suburbs and learned to shoot in the scouts. Now, I belong to a suburban troop and a lot of our kids have learned to shoot through the scouts. It's a great program for kids, and a great program for shooting rights, but it is fanatical about safety. Maybe they go too far with some safety measures, but when you're dealing with kids Murphy's Law seems to have double the force.

BTW, if you ever get the chance to go to Philmont, jump at it. It was great.

 

[gezzer]

Be Prepared!

 

[chink]

I think you are looking at it all wrong. I don't think the issue here isn legal or not legal. If I remember correctly the Guide to safe scouting is a document basically says what activities are allowed and what isn't allowed to be covered by National BSA's liability insurance.

 

[MJZZZ]

I was a scout leader from the time my son was a Tiger Cub until he was an Eagle Scout. I never once went camping without a handgun, whether it was in the truck or carried SOB for a long hike. Be prepared is my motto and concealed means concealed. To my knowledge no one ever knew, not even my son. Mike Z

 

[Deaf Smith]

If the BSA in Texas do not post 30.06 signs, then the worst they can do if they discover the weapon is ask you to leave (unless you are an employee, and then it's criminal tresspass.)

If they ask you to leave, and you refuse, THEN it's criminal trespass to. I dunno about other states, but that's Texas.

 

[jdl357]

Correia, East fork of the bear? I spent my summers there back in the early 80's. Very gun friendly place. We had a range in the camp and other activities that involved shooting etc. I love and miss Utah.

 

[Leanwolf]

GIEM DRUTH - "BTW, if you ever get the chance to go to Philmont, jump at it. It was great."

Yep! My brother and I attended Philmont in 1950. I distinctly remember that several of the Scout guides carried revolvers on the hiking trails in the mountains. There were plenty of bears and mountain lions up there then. Don't know about today

Also, when the packers came riding in to camp with supplies, they either carried handguns or had rifles in their saddle scabbards.

Those were different days, then, that's for sure.

L.W. (Eagle Scout.)

 

[geim druth]

Leanwolf, one of our stops was at Waite Phillips' hunting lodge, what a great place! Sitting there, or in Kit Carson's house, you get a feel for the time when men had to fight for their place in the wilderness.

They say there are no grizzly bears in Philmont, one reason for the no weapons policy. There are quite a few black and brown bear. The last bear attack was about 10 years ago, against a scout that kept food in his tent. Never saw any sign of cougars, though I'm sure they were there. Saw plenty of evidence of coyotes, and heard them howling at night, often.

To tell the truth, the most trouble we had with animals was with the burros, our luck there was a crew of Tennesee scouts on the trail with us whose scoutmaster knew enough about muleskinning to keep the things moving.

 

[Caimlas]

This is probably true even thought the 2A says "shall not be infringed." It probably means "shall not be infringed by government." The most they can do is kick you out.

Are you saying that it'd be legal for a company to infringe upon your 2nd Amendment-acknowledged rights? How about an individual?

There is no concensus in the Constitution for a private organization prohibiting you to bear arms. You can only do so willingly.

Furthermore, there is a reason why the Amendments were ordered in the way that they were: precidence. That is, the 1st is before the 2nd and the 2nd before the third, and so on and so forth, for the same reason why 1 comes before 2: the 1st was intended as the most essential, supported by the second. Personal property rights are a bit down the line to an individual's right to bear arms.