CCW/Carry: Best example to tell an Anti-Gunner - Road Rage

[usmarine0352_2005]

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I think most of us who CCW/Open Carry do it for mainly one reason: Because you never know what could happen and you want to be prepared to protect your life or someone else's.



However, when you tell someone who is anti-gun or someone who is asking about CCW/Open Carry you tell them this and they go, "O, Woodbury, that's such a safe place, no crime happens there, you don't need to carry a gun there."


Well, it may in fact be a low violent crime rate area, but that doesn't mean things don't or can't happen there.



Still, they go on with how it's not necessary.




Well, I found the best answer IMHO to explain CCW/Open Carry to someone who doesn't do it:


"ROAD RAGE"




Simply put, Road Rage can happen anywhere and anytime, and most likely everyone who has ever driven or been in a car has seen it or had it happen to them. They realize that it is in fact quite a distinct possibly that it could happen to them or someone they know because they've seen it first hand.


Tell them this, imagine you are in driving along peacefully and all of a sudden someone is tailgating everyone and driving unsafely, swerving in and out of the lanes. He appears to be waving his fist at people and cursing. He looks very intimidating. All of a sudden he gets behind you and starts pushing/tailgating you. Well, you can't move over to the slow lane because there are other cars there. This driver is getting aggressive and honking his horn and waiving his fist. Now you pull up to a stop light and cross-traffic is going with their light, so you can't drive forward or go in reverse. You think to yourself, "Is this really happening? This guy is really scaring me, is he a killer, murderer? Is he on drugs? Is he high or drunk?" You look back and the angry driver behind you has gotten out of his car and he is walking to your driver side window with a tire iron in his hand extremely irate and angry........what do you do? Would you want a gun to protect yourself or a cellphone? What do you do if you have your children in your car? Because if it was just yourself you could perhaps open your door and run away, but most good parents wouldn't want to run from there car leaving their children unprotected and in harms way.



I think "Road Rage" is a great example because it is more realistically possible in many people's minds that it could happen to them rather then a random act of violence because most people have been a victim of or have seen road rage firsthand and they can relate.


I bet that anyone who posts has an experience with road rage.


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[wgp]

I have a rule: if I believe a place to be so dangerous that I would not go there without a gun, I simply don't go there. BUT, I CCW because no one knows where random (random, get it?) violence will occur, but we do know that it does occur.

I believe that people who use the "it's safe here, you don't need a gun" argument are simply unwilling to carry and rationalize their way around it. Ask them whether they used their seat belt when they drove to the place where is was so safe -- surely they did not expect to be in a wreck, did they?

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

I have a rule: if I believe a place to be so dangerous that I would not go there without a gun, I simply don't go there. BUT, I CCW because no one knows where random (random, get it?) violence will occur, but we do know that it does occur.

I believe that people who use the "it's safe here, you don't need a gun" argument are simply unwilling to carry and rationalize their way around it. Ask them whether they used their seat belt when they drove to the place where is was so safe -- surely they did not expect to be in a wreck, did they?

Well, I'm saying that could be anywhere. But I would agree that some places are far more dangerous then others.




Sometimes you have to go to dangerous places. I am a police officer and sometimes I need to go to my city of work off-duty. Even walking from where I park my car to my precinct I have an off-duty gun on me. (I leave my duty gun locked in my locker at work.)




The seatbelt analogy is ok, but carrying a gun and wearing a seatbelt are far different things. There is a far different mentality that comes with safely carrying a gun or even owning a gun.



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[Tim the student]

Maybe it will work for a fence sitter, but I doubt it will work at all with an anti.

The anti will just counter with "What if the road rager has a gun? How many people would he kill? That is exactly why no one should be allowed to carry a gun."

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

Maybe it will work for a fence sitter, but I doubt it will work at all with an anti.

The anti will just counter with "What if the road rager has a gun? How many people would he kill? That is exactly why no one should be allowed to carry a gun."

Perhaps, but not all anti's are hardcore.



It might persuade a fence-sitter and anti.


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[Standing Wolf]

The only safe places are those that aren't accessible by people in purchased, stolen, rented, or borrowed cars. I don't mean to say everywhere is unsafe, nor that some places aren't safer than others; I do, however, mean to say counting on a place always to be safe isn't realistic.

Ultimately, it's not places that are safe or unsafe, but individual people.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

Maybe it will work for a fence sitter, but I doubt it will work at all with an anti.

The anti will just counter with "What if the road rager has a gun? How many people would he kill? That is exactly why no one should be allowed to carry a gun."

I would counter with, "Well, if he has a gun, then I definitely want a gun."




Just like if a robber has a gun or a burglar, I'd rather have a gun too.





The bad guys already have guns, illegally, that's why citizen's need to carry, to protect themselves.




Saying, "Because the bad guys have guns, we shouldn't." is a pretty poor example.


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[medalguy]

If they say the incidence of crime somewhere is very low, respond by asking how low? Zero? Some? How much? Do you want to be able to protect yourself from that one in a million incident or not?

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

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If they say the incidence of crime somewhere is very low, respond by asking how low? Zero? Some? How much? Do you want to be able to protect yourself from that one in a million incident or not?

Good point medalguy.




A may only be 1%, but that 1% will mean a lot if your the one affected.


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[Larry Ashcraft]

As Lee Lapin says, It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

 

[Neverwinter]

As Lee Lapin says, It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

The stakes also include the cost of preparing for an event which doesn't happen. There are some preventative measures which are so costly, they aren't worth it. Like a Type III vest on an ordinary civilian.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

The stakes also include the cost of preparing for an event which doesn't happen.

No, the stakes are what you stand to lose if you are ill-prepared for an emergency. Granted, you can't be prepared for every emergency, and the chances of your needing a weapon are pretty small, but going armed and trained is fairly cheap insurance against the unlikely.

As far as the cost (in money) of owning guns and being prepared, I guess that never occurred to me.

 

[jonmerritt]

I would just reason with him as he caved in my skull (anti-gunner)

 

[Kevinch]

I'm not sure - are there any states that consider carrying a loaded firearm in the passenger compartment of an automobile "open" carry? To my knowledge, this is always considered CCW carry & requires a permit except for states that don't require a permit for CCW.

That said - I agree with wgp. If I think there will be trouble, I won't go there. I carry to be prepared for a situation that I haven't predicted.

Sort of like auto insurance. If I know, beyond any doubt, I'll be in an accident if I take the car out, I'm not going out. The insurance is there for the unexpected.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

are there any states that consider carrying a loaded firearm in the passenger compartment of an automobile "open" carry?

In Colorado, your vehicle is considered an extension of your home, and you may keep a loaded, concealed weapon in there without a permit.

 

[Ramone]

Florida, as well, and VA has (IIRC) recently allowed 'console or glovebox carry'

 

[junebug]

I have carried for 30 plus years and only needed it once ,but that once saved my life and possibly the life of a grandson. I don't carry because I expect trouble but for the unexpected. I was working with cattle,trying to catch a calf to doctor.The bull was hand raised but had been showing a bit of mean for awhile and hit the 4 wheeler as we went by. I got off to catch the calf and the bull walked into the picture,so I ran him off [should have used a bigger club] Concentrating on the calf and job at hand I saw the bull circled back and turned to face him again to move him off. He charged from close range and caught me in the ribs then got on top and proceeded to stomp my ass. I still have no idea when I drew the pistol it was just there . It took 6 rounds and my grandson running up his ass with the 4 wheeler to get him off, 16 years old and never hesitated a bit when grandpa was down and needed him. THATS WHY I CARRY,
FOR THE UNEXPECTED,[ I was responsible for his safetey] ,and he had to save me.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

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Perfect example right here.


Even the rich and famous aren't always shielded from crime. Especially road rage.




http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/...acks-wife-in-traffic-dispute/?test=latestnews

Pittsburgh Pirates Player Helpless as Man Attacks Wife in Traffic Dispute

Published June 16, 2011

| Associated Press
PITTSBURGH -- Pittsburgh police say a man attacked the wife of Pirates catcher Chris Snyder in a traffic dispute while Snyder sat in the car, unable to get out because he'd had back surgery.

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[RedLyons]

It's not just about guns...

I live in a safe neighborhood, but I still have locks on the doors.
I don't expect my house to burn down, but I still have insurance.
I don't expect to be in a car wreck, but I still wear my seat belt.
I don't expect to loose my job, but I have savings just in case.
I don't expect anything to happen to my young children, but I still keep an eye on them.
I don't expect to die early, but I have life insurance.
I don't expect my computer to break, but I backup my important files.

I don't expect anyone to threaten my life, but I'm prepared for that too.

 

[hermannr]

I have experienced road-rage two times in my life. First time was about 35 or 40 years ago. Two lane road... This guy was driving so crazy I just pulled off the road to let him go by. Well, instead of going by, he pulled up behind me and came raging out of his jeep, grabbed my door handle and jerked my door open started to reach into my car....and then he suddenly changed his mind, cooled off and went on his way. Amazing how fast facing the business end of a Colt can cool a hothead. How does that saying go? Never bring a knife to a gun fight?

The second time I was on the freeway, not in town. This guy was 3/4 the way out his SUV's drivers window trying to hit my car with a monkey wrench, all the while yelling and screaming something? at me. On that one, I just changed lanes and put a couple cars between his car and mine. My backup stayed in the holster.

In neither case was I aware of what I was supposed to have done to cause such rage on their part. I am generally a cautious driver, one accident (the other guy left turned into me) and one ticket (speeding, trying to get away from a crazy driver) in the last 30 years. We won't talk about when I was young...

 

[Dstoerm]

Dont even think of pulling your firearm in a 'road rage' situation unless you are going to fire your weapon at the assailant.


Don't pull it to 'defuse the situation'. Don't pull it to warn the assailant off. Don't show your firearm to 'be prepared for what might come next'. Don't have the weapon in plain sight so that the assailant 'gets the message' in hopes that he backs off.

In most states if you pull your weapon and show it to the road-rage assailant and then you don't pull the trigger you WILL be charged with aggravated assault, unless you can PROVE that the 'road-rager' is already pointing his weapon at you.

Ask me how I know - a person very close to me lost his gun rights over a road rage incident where he simply showed the oncoming attacker that he was in posession of a firearm... never pointed it, never threatened to shoot. Be VERY careful in these situations. If you pull your firearm you MUST feel that you are in danger of losing your life and you must pull the trigger.

The law is not very kind to people who 'pull to prevent or defuse' a bad outcome.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

As Lee Lapin says, It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

yep.


if someone is threatening you with a deadly weapon, such as a tire iron, i assume your local ccw/deadly force laws would apply. not sure why there would be any question about it.....

 

[Dstoerm]

You are correct. If someone is threatening you with a weapon such as a tire iron then your local/state laws will apply. Most local/state laws will allow you to use deadly force to protect your life.

But, the courts will ask the question as to why you felt so threatened that you pulled your weapon to defend your life, but yet you did not feel threatened enough to pull the trigger. These cases have been litigated to the point that the DAs know that a CCH/CCW holder pulling a weapon without firing will almost always end up with the good guy facing some type of charges, unless the police find you holding the suspect for pending arrest. You cannot simply show your force (firearm) and then scare the offender off and walk away - many people, even DUMB convicted felons will call the police on YOU.

There exists such a legal position as a 'good shoot' or 'good shooting' when the victim defends his/her life with deadly force. There exists no legal precedent for a 'Good pointing of weapon' or more to the legal point a 'Good Brandishing'.

If you are indeed faced with a fight/defend or die situation then the choice is easy, and one you are fully prepared for and legally able to defend - it is the stakes, not the odds or the law after all - it is YOUR LIFE.

There are very few situations where a 'brandish to defuse' or 'brandish to protect' will ever be legally defendable, unless as stated, you are holding the other party (assailant) with WITNESSES for pending arrest by LEO. In the eyes of the court if you are stating that you were so afraid for your life that you were forced to draw your weapon, then in the court's view you must certainly have been afraid enough to pull the trigger. I realize that this is a totally warped view, and it is CERTAINLY NOT MY PERSONAL VIEW, but it is the reality in many handgun cases litigated every day.

If I were indeed truly afraid for my life in a road-rage case or any other situation I would choose to defend both myself, my family or any other party in harms way. I am just stating the legal precedent as it exists today in many right to carry states: If you pull it you better damn well be prepared to pull the trigger or face a felony action.

 

[armoredman]

If you pull your firearm you MUST feel that you are in danger of losing your life and you must pull the trigger.

Nope. Not here.

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00421.htm

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force....

We have the lawfully recognized right to display our firearm to defuse the situation, such as done potentially millions of times a year, according to Criminologist Gary Kleck's research, so I have to say, nope, not in AZ. I will do what I can legally do to de-escalate the situation, even if it come to lawfully displaying that I have the ability to utilize deadly force in self defense. I just do my best to avoid the whole situation, if I can. One road rage incident YEARS ago, able to turn away without the other being able to make the turn.

 

[I_like_Guns]

I use economic game theory and draw them a decision matrix to show them why being armed is the optimal strategy.