CCW holders and mass shootings, etc?

[thefish]

Not sure if this is in the right place, mods, please move if you see fit.

Obviously one of the arguments for having guns in the hands of good civilians, is that if there was a "bad guy", the police would not have to be relied on.

I wonder if there is any statistic on any of the highly publicized shootings in that if the shooter was a CCW holder.

My guess would be that they were not.

Just thinking of other arguments to support the fact that not everyone who carries a gun is a "nut".

 

[1911 guy]

If any of them were CCW permit holders, it would have been plastered on the front page for months and used as a national talking point to attack CCW nation wide.

 

[Old Dog]

My guess would be that they were not.

Your guess would be wrong.

If any of them were CCW permit holders, it would have been plastered on the front page for months and used as a national talking point to attack CCW nation wide.

Um, some of them were ... and it was ...

We have had several shooting episodes -- including one "mass killing" and a couple other bad situations that could have turned into multiple homicides -- in my state where the perpetrators possessed valid CPLs.

Name Ian Stawicki and the Seattle Café Racer shootings ring a bell?

 

[AlexanderA]

The purpose of licensed carry is self-defense. Such a license does not designate the holder as a reserve policeman. Therefore, if the concealed carrier intervenes in a mass shooting situation, other than to directly protect himself, he oversteps the bounds of his license and leaves himself open to adverse legal consequences. He could also mis-assess the situation and, say, end up shooting an undercover policeman or another licensed gun carrier. For these reasons, it would be wise for a licensed carrier to keep his gun holstered, even in a mass shooting situation. The first course of action should therefore be to put as much distance between oneself and the unfolding events. Use the gun only if there is no other choice.

 

[larryh1108]

Use the gun only if there is no other choice.

Everybody may not agree but if you are armed and present and a mass shooter opens up and you don't do anything to stop it... I don't know what to say. That is different than walking in after it started unless you see him shooting at innocents. IMO, if you know it's the shooter and you have a clear and safe shot then there is no other choice. Acting like Dirty Harry is not the answer but turning your back and running away just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Old Dog]

I don't think that was what the OP was asking ...

I wonder if there is any statistic on any of the highly publicized shootings in that if the shooter was a CCW holder.

 

[tarosean]

TX puts out a yearly list of crimes committed by CHL holders..
While it isn't specifically what your after.. It shows that CHL holders do commit crimes, albeit at a much lower rate than the general populous..

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2012.pdf

 

[Twiki357]

I find it interesting that 22 of the total 120 violations by Texas CHL holders are for “unlicensed?” carry handgun by a license holder (10) and “unlicensed?” carrying a weapon (12 by CHL holders). I’m curious of what that means; Not in possession of the holders permit while carrying and/or carry of an “Illegal” weapon (switchblade – brass knuckles)?

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Usually you can figure out how many people in your state have a CPL, pull up the total population, subtract the 18-and-under, do some Kentucky windage to guess how many more to subtract between 18-20 years old, and get an idea of the theoretical ratio of how many people have a CPL. For my state, it's around 1-in-12, but much lower in reality because not all people carry daily. 50% would not surprise me, so 5% of adults I pass daily.

Considering the rarity of mass shootings and general population being armed at any given time, it's not a surprise that CPL holders are rarely involved directly in mass shootings. Most trained CPLs and instructors (active and retired LEO or mil) I've talked to won't get involved unless it's blatantly, absolutely clear that it's a mass shooting. Even then you better have a darn good game plan because two SWAT trucks with twitchy officers are going to show up at some point and they see a man gunning down another.

For generic crimes, you also better be sure or you might be looking at capital murder if you shoot an undercover cop, or perhaps manslaughter if you hit a civilian because you walked into a shop and saw a man holding another at gunpoint, shot the gun-wielder, then learned it was the shop owner holding an attempted robber at gunpoint already. You don't have the legal leeway or protections an officer of the law has.

 

[HammsBeer]

Our carry instructor made an interesting scenario of "what if you intervene".

Say you are leaving a restaurant downtown late in the evening, and as you pass an alleyway you can hear a woman in distress. You wander down the alley and find three guys raping her and you try to intervene. In the ensuing commotion you have to pull your gun and shoot and kill a perp. In court they find you guilty of manslaughter/murder/etc because you were not a willing participant and "should have called the police".

Can you justify spending the next 20 years in prison to help a stranger? It wasn't to say you should never help someone, but just be aware of the legal consequences of participating in a fight that doesn't involve you or you have a chance to escape.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

We just had a man in Spokane win a self-defense case. Cost him close to $350k. He decided it was a good idea to shoot a fleeing man in the back of the head, who was driving away in his truck. He is damn lucky the jury let him off. We can't use lethal force to protect property. Our state reimburse self-defense court costs but it'll be years for the process. I'd like to interview him and ask if it was worth it.

You see a scruffy dude pinning and fighting an attractive gal against a dirty alley wall and she is screaming bloody rape while he tells her to shut the hell up. Rape is considered a lethal force attack in most jurisdictions. You decide to be a hero and open fire, blammo! You just shot a vice cop in an undercover sting. Thanks for playing the game.

The laws do vary by state. We can use lethal force to defend others here. Three men actively raping a woman is fairly obvious, like a mass shooter. However there are a LOT of gray scenarios where all facts aren't known, and ripe for legal boners.

 

[HammsBeer]

Just because we can legally carry a weapon in public does not make us law enforcement. His point was if you choose to intervene in a situation that does not involve you, you do it at your own physical and legal peril.

 

[ShelbyV8]

I find it interesting that 22 of the total 120 violations by Texas CHL holders are for “unlicensed?” carry handgun by a license holder (10) and “unlicensed?” carrying a weapon (12 by CHL holders). I’m curious of what that means; Not in possession of the holders permit while carrying and/or carry of an “Illegal” weapon (switchblade – brass knuckles)?

Unlicensed carry handgun by a license holder is probably carrying while waiting for license to be issued either initial or renewal.

 

[tarosean]

I find it interesting that 22 of the total 120 violations by Texas CHL holders are for “unlicensed?” carry handgun by a license holder (10) and “unlicensed?” carrying a weapon (12 by CHL holders). I’m curious of what that means; Not in possession of the holders permit while carrying and/or carry of an “Illegal” weapon (switchblade – brass knuckles)?

UNL = Unlawful




Could be a violation under PC §46.035.
- Intentional Failure to Conceal
- Carrying into a 51% establishment
- Carrying at a High school, collegiate, or professional sporting event
- Carrying into a correctional facility
- Carrying while intoxicated
- Carrying at a Governmental meeting



and weapon could be exactly that, a large fixed blade knife (5.5" max IRCC) , brass knuckles, Armor-piercing ammunition, blackjack, etc. etc. etc.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Had a case last year the antis just loved. Two CPL holders, one case of road rage, at few bad decisions and the end result was two deceased CPL holders.

So, while CPL holders can and do commit crimes, even violent felonies, they tend to be at a much lower rate.

As far as mass shootings go, being that they are such a statistical anomaly, it could justifiably be said that a CPL holder might be just as likely to go on a spree kill as anyone else. Just as legally possessed machine guns have been used in homicides, the numbers are so astronomically low that its likely to be noticed and heavily noted in reports, because its such a rare occurrence.

 

[ACP]

Note this stat, from the Texas report:

TERRORISTIC THREAT IMPAIR PUBLIC/GOV SERVICE 28/12/ 42.8571%

Almost half of all "terroristic threats" made against government or public services were made by "good guys" who can legally possess and carry firearms in Texas. That's not good.

This simply plays into the public perception that most gun owners are anti-government, are fearful of their local, county, state and federal government, and will seek to threaten/assault those governments.

But the Texas report should be done by every state in America. What is shows is that legal gun owners commit about 2/10ths of 1 percent of all crime, maybe less firearms crime.

More gun laws? Stupid and useless. Actually enforcing laws already on the books, and handing down tougher sentences to career criminals who use guns? That's the answer.

 

[DrBozack]

Your guess would be wrong.

Um, some of them were ... and it was ...

We have had several shooting episodes -- including one "mass killing" and a couple other bad situations that could have turned into multiple homicides -- in my state where the perpetrators possessed valid CPLs.

Name Ian Stawicki and the Seattle Café Racer shootings ring a bell?

Yeah, I don't know of any stats, but folks with concealed carry permits have perpetrated at least a few mass shootings. I can think of a few in my own city.

Of course, they represent a tiny percentage of the nation's concealed carry permit holders. The anti-gun lobby's attempt to link gun permits to mass shootings is as misguided and inaccurate as the efforts by some pro-gun folks to link antidepressant use to mass shootings.

 

[ACP]

There's a breaking story out of Las Vegas right now, where two cop killers may have engaged with a CCW at a Wal-Mart across the street... check back for details...

 

[ACP]

REVIEW-JOURNAL STAFF



Two Las Vegas police officers and a civilian were reportedly killed Sunday in an apparent ambush attack at a pizza store that spilled over to a nearby Walmart store, where the two shooters killed themselves.

Details are sketchy and police have not yet confirmed the death of the officers, but sources within the Las Vegas Police Department say the officer and another were shot and killed by a man and a woman who approached them as they at lunch at the CiCi’s Pizza store at 309 N. Nellis Boulevard at about 11:20 a.m.

One officer was reportedly dead at the scene, while the other died later in surgery. Both were assigned to the Northeast Area Command.

Witnesses told police one yelled “This is the start of a revolution” before shooting the officers. The shooters then stripped the officers of their weapons and ammunition and went into the Walmart at 201 North Nellis.

Witnesses at the scene reported hearing shots fired in quick succession inside the WalMart.

One unconfirmed report is that the two exchanged gunfire with a citizen who was carrying a concealed weapon, and that one of the shooters was injured. Police confirm that at least one civilian at the Walmart was shot and killed.

At a news conference at about 1 p.m. Assistant Sheriff Kevin McMahill said the male shooter, described as a tall white man, yelled “everyone get out” before shooting.

The man and woman then went to the back of the store and “there was some kind of suicide pact,” McMahill said.

Both shooters were reportedly carrying large duffle bags, and a bomb squad was called to the scene. It’s unclear at this time what, if anything, was found in the bags. A fire department official said the bomb squad response was “a precaution.”

Several lanes of traffic near Nellis and Stuart are closed. Nevada Highway Patrol is also on scene.

This is a developing story. Check back for details.

 

[tarosean]

One unconfirmed report is that the two exchanged gunfire with a citizen who was carrying a concealed weapon, and that one of the shooters was injured.

Apparently the CCW holder was killed in the latest from the story...

 

[USAF_Vet]

Apparently the CCW holder was killed in the latest from the story...

I have heard the same.

So it begs the question, should lawfully armed citizens intervene, or not.

In what few details I've read, I can't say I'd intervene in this incident (and I hate Monday morning quarterbacking this) because it doesn't seem the shooters were targeting civilians inside the Walmart. If it was the male shooter who shouted for everyone to get out, and shot into the roof to get the herd movin' its scary, but not a direct threat.

In either case, I feel for the families of those officers, and the civilian who died.

 

[GEM]

To the OP - here's a mass shooter with a NY pistol permit. Whether it was carry or whatever, I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binghamton_shootings

 

[krupparms]

According to evening news ( W.C.) . The civilian killed in Wallmart was a CCW holder & was able to shoot & wound the male mass shooter, before being killed. He probably was defending himself & others. The shooters then barricaded themselves & committed suicide.
The shooters left a note saying the revolution has started! These were the most extreme types of mass shooters! People that have decided to commit violence & die for what they believe is right!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The purpose of licensed carry is self-defense. Such a license does not designate the holder as a reserve policeman. Therefore, if the concealed carrier intervenes in a mass shooting situation, other than to directly protect himself, he oversteps the bounds of his license and leaves himself open to adverse legal
consequences.

No. Most if not all states include defense of others under the laws governing self defense.

So it begs the question, should lawfully armed citizens intervene, or not.

There are definite risks and those risks often come from a critical lack of understanding of the situation. For example...

1985 Springfield Mall, PA, Sylvia Seegrist killed 3, injured 7, was stopped by unarmed mall store employee who thought her gun wasn't real. This hero got very lucky despite his ignorance.

2005 Brenden McKown at Tacoma Mall - engaged a shooter verbally and did not have his gun drawn, fearing being confused for the shooter by the cops and claiming he didn't have a shot on the shooter. McKown was shot multiple times and was crippled as a result. McKown intervened stupidly, but with good intentions.

2005 Mark Wilson engaged an active shooter down on the square in Tyler, Texas, apparently seeing the shooting start from his apartment window overlooking the square. The firearms instructor strangely opted to respond with his pistol where upon he engaged the active shooter who was wearing body armor and who summarily killed Wilson. Wilson was credited for wounding the shooter and changing the course of events, but was killed. He had actually shot the shooter multiple times, but the vest protected the shooter from all but one shot. Wilson apparently did not realize the shooter was wearing a vest.

2011 - Giffords shooting, Joe Zamudio responded to the shooting and nearly shot the wrong person as he admitted to the press. Zamudio arrived AFTER the shooter had been disarmed and the person he claims to have almost shot was securing the weapon.

2014 - LV Walmart, David Wilcox apparently entered the situation not realizing how many opponents he was engaging, and was killed as result. Apparently, he drew, but never fired a shot. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...confronted-white-supremacists-longed-cop.html

 

[skoro]

I think that a CCW getting involved in a 3rd person event is almost always a bad idea and in my CHL class, the instructor specifically warned against doing so, citing a number of incidents that ended badly, despite good intentions.

It's almost impossible to know who's who and what's what. Without certainty, applying deadly force can lead to all kinds of negative outcomes, as in the LV Walmart case. The good guy lost his life w/o altering the outcome.