Chinese guns are overrated.

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Something has been bothering me and I want to voice it. It seems that everywhere I look, I see Chinese made guns being sold for what I consider top dollar. I have owned several Chinese made guns and all of them seemed rather crude compared to other nation's guns. The price of Chinese guns seems very high as well. What is going on? Why are people buying Chinese guns for such high prices?

Let me site some examples:
1. Chinese SKSs. They are the worst SKSs I have seen and they cost more than Yugos and some other makes. A Yugo is made MUCH better than any Chinese SKS I have seen. The only SKS I have owned that was a jammer was a Chinese SKS. I have owned other Chinese SKSs that worked fine but all of them seemed to be poorer quality in terms of fit and finish as well as machining.

2. Norinco 1911s. I have never owned one or even seen one in person so this is more of a question. How can a Norinco be worth more than a SA 1911 or a Colt Sistema 1927? I just got a nice Sistema for $320 shipped. I have not seen any Norincos sell for that cheap and even if they did, I still think the Sistema would be better made. Not sure but it is a good guess.

3. AKs. I have seen these Chinese AKs sell for crazy prices. I guess they were preban or some something but I wouldn't pay $1400 for a Chinese AK when I can buy Polish, Yugo and Romanian AK in pre-ban config for less than $500. Who is buying these?

I am not really bashing Chinese guns but I do think they command prices that are out of whack with the quality and preformance they deliver. Am I crazy or is there something I am missin about these guns?

 

[mcooper]

The Norinco 1911's IIRC, were cheaper than SA's

 

[TheFrenchCanadian]

Answer to #3

Is simple. Supply and demand.

There are a finite number of Norinco's in the US because of the import ban, so when someone wants one, they are forced to pay a premium. I'm only adressing #3 in your post because it's the only one I have any experience with. But I do agree that the price in your country don't seem to reflect build quality when it comes to norinco 1911's. Elswhere, where the market isn't altered by an import ban, it's a different story.

Here in Canada, Norinco 1911's go for cheap in comparison to name brand 1911's. I just bought an NP-29 (1911 clone in 9mm) for $325 shipped that only had 50 rounds through it and it came with all the original extras and a couple of extra Mec-Gar mags. I would have paid at least $700, probably more where I am for a name brand 1911 in the same condition with the same extras.

Availability of Norincos isn't a problem here, although they are back ordered a fair bit it seems & the price reflects that.

TFC

 

[ROMAK IV]

The main answer is that Clintin banned the import of most Chinese guns, and therefore, the banned ones are more valuable.

SKS's: From my experience, Chinese SKS's are of high qiality. My Chinese SKS's don't jam, but Yugo's often do, not because of inferior quality overall, but because of the troublesome gas shutoff valve. Additonally, Chinese SKS's were made new, and had a version that took AK magazines.

AK's: Because they were banned, nearly ALL Chinese AK's are preban. They were also imported legally as completed firearms, not pieced together or modified to meet ridiculous federal regulations, which for the most part, are still in place. So even a MAK-90 is preban. Some of the even earlier Chinese AK's are quite rare and thus collectable.

1911's: I never bought one but Norico 1911's are said to have superior steel in their construction. They were way under the price for domestic made 1911's at the time they were imported, and as far as I know, can't be imported anymore and thus more collectable.

Others: For the most part it seems, only firerms like shotguns are allowed to be imported from China. So you will see Mossberg like shotguns, and reproductions of old design shotguns. They run cheaper than what would be expected of anothere manufaturer.

 

[silverlance]

see, my friend, the chinese make guns out of unobtainium. when was the last time you saw a newly chinese made gun in your local store?

the chinese (like many other countries whose economies lack the resources for original research and development) specialize in copying successful designs. their copies follow a certain bell curve - vastly inferior, then someone acceptable, then quite good and a bargain for the money... at that last point the downhill slide begins as corners are cut to save money. Ultimately, the product becomes a penny-pinched version of the original - usually still decent noticably inferior. The SKS you mention went through no less than six (and quite possibly more) revisions as more and more metal was conserved, and the very process of building was repeatedly revised to lower costs.

besides, they also make some really neat versions.

 

[eliphalet]

I have had several Chinese norinco's in SKS and one MAK90. The last SKS was bought at a yard sale for$150 earlier this year, I owned it less than 48 hours. All Functioned fine always, no failures, but accuracy in the SKS's left a lot to be desired. I don't think the MAK was ever "papered".

I would sell the MAK for the above price with several mags and 1000 rounds in NY minute if I could get $1400 for it. In fact the reason I bought it was to resell, just haven't gotten arountoit. I doubt it has been shot 100 rounds in over a decade.

 

[easy]

I don't know, my T53 was only $35.00. Shoots quite nicely too.

 

[denfoote]

Type 59 Makarovs are considered rare and command a more substantial price to collectors

 

[Hoppy590]

chinese t53's have the best trigger of any mosin iv handled.

 

[novaDAK]

when was the last time you saw a new chinese made gun in your local store?

Today...New England Fireamrs pump shotgun. And lots of places are selling chinese coach guns and lever shotguns. New ones. Because they are allowed to be imported somehow. (because they're "sporting"...that damn word "sporting")

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I have a sino-soviet SKS and it is made of all milled parts and is a perfectly functioning firearm. Later on they made more and more parts out of stamped metal and finally quit using screw in barrels in favor of pinned ones. I'm going to go with Silverlance almost word for word on this one with the exception that many Norinco m14 copies seem to have more than their share of problems.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I can only speak for the SKS, as that's the only Chinese gun I own (I found a Chinese AK for a decent price a few years back, but was broke). From what I've heard over the years, the Chinese models vary greatly in quality. Some of them are completely factory made, others were largely the product of backyard forges. I have one of the good ones; it's a fine rifle and I would put it up against any of the Yugos. I'm sure there are plenty of people paying too much for inferior models, though. Just remember, there were 800 million of these things made for the military alone.

 

[Cannonball888]

"made in China" can be found on a lot of items around my house. Yes, I am a Wallyworld and Harbourfreight shopper, however, I've never had a desire to own a chinese gun, not even a Polytech Legend.

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

I've owned a Norinco 1911, five T53's, two 98 Mausers and two SKS's. All were Chinese. I rate them all good values. That's ~$1325 total and only one was a dud (had to replace the bolt in one of the 98's).

 

[nwilliams]

So all Chinese guns are bad because you've had some bad experiences with them? Just trying to understand the point you're trying to make here

I think there are many happy Norinco owners out there, I've owned several over the years and they all worked fine and didn't cost me a fortune. Honestly the way I look at it, why does it matter what people want to buy and what they choose to spend, its not my money? I see guns that are over-priced and over-hyped all the time and they aren't all Chinese made. I think there is a rarity factor that jacks up the price on Norinco guns due to the ban, what's already been imported is all that's here and down the road they are only going to become sought after because of that.

 

[zinj]

Today...New England Fireamrs pump shotgun. And lots of places are selling chinese coach guns and lever shotguns. New ones. Because they are allowed to be imported somehow. (because they're "sporting"...that damn word "sporting")

Actually, the ban on Chinese weapons was expanded to all semi-automatics.

 

[Jack A. Sol]

chinese guns = "a fool and thier money are soon parted"

 

[Prince Yamato]

Hooray for latent Xenophobia and Cold War paranoia!

The Chinese SKS have a chrome bore, which made them better for shooting surplus corrosive ammo.

The Chinese AKs had a thicker receiver and were made in the same factories and by the same company (North China Industries) that makes guns for the Chinese military and military export. You basically got a neutered Type 56. Have you ever held a Mak-90? The difference in feel is obvious.

Because most Chinese firearms are no longer imported, they also command a higher price. But in all honesty, they are GOOD firearms.

I personally love these threads because it enables me to sort out the Philistines on THR who know nothing about current Chinese socio-economic policy or culture. I relish the retro comments like "Chi-com crap" and how my dollars spent on Chinese guns "funds an oppressive communist regime"; or better still, how my dollars are going to "fund the Chinese army so they can invade the USA and do something or other".

 

[woad_yurt]

I've had Yugo SKSs, sold 'em, and now have 2 Chinese ones. They are loaded with stamped and pinned parts, yes, but they're a touch more accurate and a lot handier than the Yugo ones. I shot my friend's Yugo recently after not touching one for a year or so and it felt like I was shouldering a telephone pole. I admit that the Chinese ones look more cheaply made (they probably are) but, in my experience, they shoot better and weigh much less.

 

[joab]

I have owned five Norinco 1911s and four Sistemas, the Norincos have never failed me no matter what I stuff in the chamber,and they don't bite

I also have a Nork 97 shotgun, a gun which gets a lot of work with the CAS crowd, and a Norinco clone of the browning semi .22 both have performed flawlessly and the ,22 is one of if not the most accurate of my .22s

Used Norincos can still be found in excellent condition for $400 and under and were the choice of many competition shooters

my dollars are going to "fund the Chinese army so they can invade the USA "

.I've said this before, but think of the irony of us fighting off the invading Yellow Horde with their own guns
Wonder what their newspapers will say about that

 

[Hoppy590]

...Well, who *is* on our side?

Six hundred million screaming Chinamen.

Last I heard, there were a billion screaming Chinamen.

There *were*. whiskey flares up the fire

sorry. couldnt resist

 

[Zen21Tao]

1911's: I never bought one but Norico 1911's are said to have superior steel in their construction.

Here is something I posted awhile back on anther THR thread. A material engineer explains why Chinese Norinco steel is superior to most American made steel. As a side not, many gun-smiths won't work on Norincos because the steel is too strong/tough for common American made tools. To cut into the steel, they either have to spot heat the metal first to use their common tool bits or they have to use special expensive carbide bits. But, as the engineer quoted below says, the Norinco steel is "most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low."

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=15245
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=145099

Quote:
There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.

"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.

 

[jrfoxx]

I don't know, my T53 was only $35.00. Shoots quite nicely too.

Agreed.Mine too.

chinese t53's have the best trigger of any mosin iv handled.

Agreed again.I shot mine for the first time since I got it several months ago, last week, and was STUNNED at the light, smooth trigger.I was taken COMPLETELY by surprise when the gun went off with such little pressure applied yet.

Also, I LOVE my Chinese Norinco SKS-M with AK mags.Unique, reasonably accurate, hi-cap, fun, good fit and finish, and sturdy.

 

[Onmilo]

I would personally choose a Bulgarian made firearm over any other com-bloc weapon Russian included.

Chinese made firearms are like Chinese made shirts and Chinese made shoes.
The importers buy the stuff cheap in China and over inflate the retail price wherever it ends up.

As long as people continue to buy Chinese made products at whatever price the market will bear, nothing is going to change.

I hate Mattel toys.

 

[ozwyn]

heard nothing but good things about the chinese copy fo the old winchester trench shotgun. And after 2 terms in the white house the republicans haven't let US buyers look at new chinese semiauto rifle imports.

I'm only about half as bitter as my coffee when I think about that.... because it means we aren't allowed to fully judge your position based on current production.