Chinese using AKs during 1962 border war with India

Status
Not open for further replies.
OK, I'll play: Does anybody actually know where or when that first photo was taken?

I can't recognize terrain, mil. insignia, or even clearly see the rifles!?

In such a war, in the middle of the nowhere desert, you make do with whatever you can scrounge. a.) To try and say that those have to be Xxx rifles, stamped/milled by USSR, in 19xx, is rediculous. b.) Using wikipedia and youtube as valid reference points, is a no-go. Even your local 2-year colleges don't allow them for freshmen research or references. c.) What was the point again? To show that the M-16 was not in production yet, or...?

The 1913 photo is at least viewable, with somewhat discernable uniform markings. Looks like tea time....:)
 
That officer is definitely shooting in the early 20th century style....
Arm's length, one handed grip, and with one eye closed. Interesting bit of history from a training sense.
 
The Chinese army had Korea as a training ground. India hadn't done anything even similar. Odds are that the Indian government figured that the Himalayas were pretty much adequate against Chinese incursions, thus letting them focus more on all the politicking over Bangladesh and Pakistan.
 
So is this now a firearms in history picture thread or what? I'm rather confused what we were supposed to be originally discussing.

For what it's worth, I've always liked this one, US Horse Cavalry with a 1911 and an M1 Garand. YeeHaw!
wByeS.jpg

WHile the AK 47 wasnt even fielded yet until in 1949! [sic] (I couldn't resist...I'm a bad, bad person)
 
Certaindeaf,

Given the likely location it isn't Bigfoot in the background but the related Himalayan species - Yeti!

I couldn't resist. Normally I try not to hi-jack threads with my clever wit but this thread already seems to be a lost cause.

Some interesting pictures though and some good history of milling vs. stamping of AK's.

Dan
 
In late 1960 I deployed to Viet-Nam with the 401st Tactical Fighter Wing. We were issued Gen. Curtis Lemays rifle of choice the new Armalite AR-15 a select fire rifle without the forward assist. The Air Force provided us with ammunition that was developed FOR the rifle. We never experienced any probles with the weapon.

When the Army fielded the M-16 for themselves they chose to change to a cheaper powder to save $$$$$. The had mucho problems so added the forward assist and chromed the barrel. It would have been cheaper to just buy the correct powder. The Air Force troops were told to well oil the bolt carrier so that may have helped the weapons efficiency. Heresay, but I was told that the Army troops were told the rifle only required occasional cleaning and oiling.
 
The powder change for the M16 was due to lobbying by the Olin Corporation. The burn characteristics raised the cyclic rate, and (maybe) burned a bit dirtier. Anyhow, that was said to be a large part of the problem. (SOF magazine article by (IIRC) Pate, fifteen or so years back; maybe 20, I disremember.)

Prior to a Garand on horseback, cavalry trainee horses commonly were missing part or all of the left ear. Not all trainees became quickly proficient in dealing with the command, 'Draw...Sabers!"
 
I just saw this video , PLA troops did use AKs and SKSs in 1962 . Long before our US troops encountered these weapons in VN, they were already tested in combat in the extremely cold high Himalayan Plateaus during Sino Indian War .

Notice the familiar looks , 3:23, 3:36 and 4:26 minutes into the video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNTUotf1Rr4
 
The what, where, when and who of that era doesn't really matter right now. What is going on today does matter and is what we need to be concerned about.
 
For what it's worth, I've always liked this one, US Horse Cavalry with a 1911 and an M1 Garand.
Click to expand...

Personally, I find that picture extremely interesting. How did cavalry work in that day and age? Were they reconnaissance? Were they used as more mobile infantry?

I assume that the 1911 is for when riding, and then the M1 would be used once dismounted.
 
So, you are bringing this confusing zombie thread to reconfirm a point that virtually everyone else already understood? Besides, what's the relationship you are trying to tie between battle testing a rifle in the harsh Himalayas and the tropical climes of Vietnam.

Yes, PLA troops did indeed use AKs and SKSs in 1962 (and even before that patrolling the border). And coincidentally, some Russian "advisors" apparently had AKs in Cuba in 1962 as well. It is well known that the AK model has appeared everywhere from the thin icy air of the mountains to the sealevel tropics, and virtually everything in between.

As did the M-14.
As did the M1 Garand before that.
As did the 1903 Springfield before that.

So pardon me for being somewhat abrupt, but what are you trying to say that is not very obvious?
 
I assume that the 1911 is for when riding, and then the M1 would be used once dismounted.
Click to expand...

That sounds plausible to me. To be honest, I don't know a whole lot about the back story behind that picture. It could be that it's not cavalry and is instead a dispatch rider. My guess is that it's from the late 30s and was simply a training thing or maybe while doing maneuvers out west. The German army used a ton of horses in World War 2, which most people forget. So I guess I could see the use of having light infantry on horses that could move fairly quickly around the battlefield but didn't need gas and could dismount to fight. It's an idea that to my knowledge we didn't use (or really need) in World War 2 but may have been the thinking behind the picture.
 
Pls dont make it a zombie conspiracy like you are expecting by election time. LOL. Back in 1962 the US military had not heard much of the AK until our troops fought off NVAs and VC s with AK 47s sometime in 1966 and so forth.
So again this video just confirmed they did use them in 1962. While the free world had Garands, FALs, M 14s and while the M 16 were still being fielded and tested. The AKs were already drawing blood , as in cold blood in the high mountain peaks of Himalayas.

............

Quote: Wojownik

So, you are bringing this confusing zombie thread to reconfirm a point that virtually everyone else already understood? Besides, what's the relationship you are trying to tie between battle testing a rifle in the harsh Himalayas and the tropical climes of Vietnam.

Yes, PLA troops did indeed use AKs and SKSs in 1962 (and even before that patrolling the border). And coincidentally, some Russian "advisors" apparently had AKs in Cuba in 1962 as well. It is well known that the AK model has appeared everywhere from the thin icy air of the mountains to the sealevel tropics, and virtually everything in between.

As did the M-14.
As did the M1 Garand before that.
As did the 1903 Springfield before that.

So pardon me for being somewhat abrupt, but what are you trying to say that is not very obvious?
 
Last edited:
Did Indians have Enfields?
Click to expand...
Do you mean the Indian Armed Forces or Indian Citizens?If you are talking about Indian civillians,then yes those citizens(Usually wealthy ones)did own Lee Enfields,before the Indian Arms Act came into force,I think,in 1959 & another in 1962 called The Arms Rules Act 1962.After that they couldn't own them,due to the .303 being a 'military caliber'.My grandfather was an anglo-Indian & I think he owned one,over there,before he immigrated to Britain in 1958.I think India,like France,was worried about insurgencies with military weapons & passed a gun control act.:eek
 
nathan said:
Back in 1962 the US military had not heard much of the AK until our troops fought off NVAs and VC s with AK 47s sometime in 1966 and so forth.
Click to expand...

That's not entirely correct in the case of the US Army (my father recalled a number of briefings on the various Soviet rifles - including the AK-47 - when he was in the army, and that was 1959-1961, recalled again in 1962).

And this is definitely not correct in the case of the US intelligence and ordinance communities, who had studied the rifle a fair bit by then.

In 1952, the British and American military intelligence services obtained a copy of the classified 121-page Soviet technical manual for the rifle (the British actually were the ones that got it, translated it, and shared it with the US). The U.S. obtained its first AK-47s for examination shortly after that. The US Army Technical Intel Office issued its test report on the AK-47 in June 1956. Even the public got a look at the rifle - the September 1956 issue of GUNS magazine had a front cover profile of the 7.62x39 M43 Soviet round, with a depiction of the AK-47 (page 17 - see http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1956issues/G0956.pdf)

Then, 1962 pops up again in this discussion. By 1962, there were some 12,000 military "advisors" in Vietnam, a major surge. Also that year, the first 1,000 AR-15s made their way into the hands of U.S. advisors (MacNamara approved the purchase contract in December 1961). Some also went into the hands of ARVN troops, which saw combat that year. So, while a point was made early in this thread that the "M-16 wasn't adopted until 1964," bear in mind that it's precurser was seeing experimental fielding in 1962 at the same general time as the photo that started this thread.
 
Yes, PLA troops did indeed use AKs and SKSs in 1962 (and even before that patrolling the border). And coincidentally, some Russian "advisors" apparently had AKs in Cuba in 1962 as well. It is well known that the AK model has appeared everywhere from the thin icy air of the mountains to the sealevel tropics, and virtually everything in between.
Click to expand...
Actually I think the AK47 appeared in Cuba in the late 50s because I noticed one attatched to a Willys Jeep,in a photo that included Castro & Guevara,dated 1957,in my old highschool,history-textbook.Yes its likely Russian advisors brought them over then.
 
EnfieldEnthusiast said:
Actually I think the AK47 appeared in Cuba in the late 50s because I noticed one attatched to a Willys Jeep,in a photo that included Castro & Guevara,dated 1957,in my old highschool,history-textbook.Yes its likely Russian advisors brought them over then.
Click to expand...

Concur, it's possible they were in Cuba before 1962. I was just trying to play along with the theme of 1962.

In 1962, the Chinese used their variant in the Indian border war
In 1962, the Soviet advisors had them in Cuba
In 1962, Indonesian troops used them against Dutch colonial troops
And, in 1962, we began limited deployment of the the AR-15 in Vietnam
 
gunner69 said:
In late 1960 I deployed to Viet-Nam with the 401st Tactical Fighter Wing. We were issued Gen. Curtis Lemays rifle of choice the new Armalite AR-15 a select fire rifle without the forward assist. The Air Force provided us with ammunition that was developed FOR the rifle. We never experienced any probles with the weapon.

When the Army fielded the M-16 for themselves they chose to change to a cheaper powder to save $$$$$. The had mucho problems so added the forward assist and chromed the barrel. It would have been cheaper to just buy the correct powder. The Air Force troops were told to well oil the bolt carrier so that may have helped the weapons efficiency. Heresay, but I was told that the Army troops were told the rifle only required occasional cleaning and oiling.
Click to expand...

According to my memory of the military history channel show I watched about this (so, take it with a grain of salt), you're correct that the army was told that they didnt need to clean the rifle if they used the right powder, but used ball powder anyway (I think I've read on this forum that Stoner or Armalite had nothing to do with the no cleaning claim). After the dirty rifles started failing in the field, they began issuing cleaning kits for them.
 
I don't see any connection to this picture and information to the M-16. That's like saying the Chinese plowed with water buffalo while we used Ford tractors.
A different tool for the purpose. Crude weaponry of that day?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

M
  • Locked
Chinese military- suspicious of new caliber?
2
Replies
39
Views
3K
Vern Humphrey
V
R
  • Locked
AK-47s: Spray & Pray Going Away
2
Replies
39
Views
4K
MachIVshooter
MachIVshooter
R
  • Locked
AK-47 Gets No Respect.
2 3
Replies
60
Views
3K
collateral
C
T
  • Locked
6.8 Rem v. 6.5 Grendel in Iraq?
2 3
Replies
56
Views
17K
Tony Williams
T
F
  • Locked
Super cross between AK-47 and AR15: SR-47
Replies
10
Views
2K
Forseti
F
Back
Top