CHL Regrets?

[Mulliga]

Quite the opposite. Although I wish we could have Vermont-style carry here in Florida, I'm willing to swallow a relatively small compromise in my principles in order to defend my life and those around me, just as I am unwilling to risk carrying illegally, which is a felony here and as such would basically screw up your life forever.

I've never been made or had a run-in with a LEO while carrying, so I have no experience about that. From what I've read and heard, however, most LEOs either don't care or are slightly happy/relieved to be dealing with a "known entity," so to speak.

As for the Tueller Drill, I've found that I can go from hands above shoulders (and awaiting the beep) to aimed first shot in about 2 seconds and some change. This is with a standard IWB holster covered by a T-shirt, while moving forward. The key thing to remember is that you don't have to stand still when someone charges at you - careful movement to the right or left will lengthen the time you have to respond. Of course, 21 feet assumes you are fully aware of the BG and his weapon, a condition that may or may not apply to the real world (it's really easy to conceal a knife or a gun in a newspaper, or a jacket, or a bag, etc.)

 

[Standing Wolf]

Have you ever had second thoughts about your CHL?

I regret not leaving the People's Republic of California and returning to the United States quite a few years before I did.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

As for the Tueller Drill, I've found that I can go from hands above shoulders (and awaiting the beep) to aimed first shot in about 2 seconds and some change.

Congratulations. If the BG is 21 feet away and can cover the 21 feet in 1-1/2 seconds, you are only half a second too late to save your life.

Of course, not every BG will be that fast. On the other hand, not every BG will be that slow. Don't forget that an NFL football lineman has to be able to cover 40 yards in 4 seconds or he's not even on the taxi squad.

I really don't think the instructor explained what the 21-foot "rule" is or where it came from. More than likely, he didn't even know. It is not a "rule" to be followed, it was intended by Lt. Tueller as a "rule of thumb" to demonstrate to officers how wide their circle of alertness to a potential threat had to be. Yes, in the Tueller Drill the BG already has the knife drawn and visible. The point was to show officers that just because the BG was 21 feet away it didn't mean they should relax their guard and assume he wasn't a threat.

And Lt. Tueller himself is now saying that the meaning and importance of his "drill" have been misunderstood and misapplied. He is also of the opinion that 21 feet is no longer a valid number, because of the longer time it takes to draw from the level 3 retention holster.

Just to clarify: If it came across from the class that 21 feet represents some sort of magical boundary line, and that you either can or should shoot any bad guy within 21 feet and that you won't be prosecuted if you do so ... either the instructor was way off base, or you didn't understand him correctly.

The ONLY thing the Tueller Drill was intended to accomplish was to show police officers that if they had an armed BG within 21 feet it was time to draw the duty weapon and be prepared to shoot ... IF NECESSARY. The point was simply and solely to show that 21 feet was not far enough away to think that a BG holding a knife isn't a threat. It was never intended to become a hard and fast rule saying you can't shoot if the BG is more than 21 feet away, or that you must shoot if he's within 21 feet.

 

[goose]

A comment from Trickasafox (above) about ".....everyone leaves a paper trail." TRUE! I took up handgunning 3 months ago, been shotgunning & rifle hunting for over 35 yrs. Went to our chief of police to get a permit to purchase a handgun. Got it. Purchased a handgun. Took a handgun course to get my 'Permit to carry' license. Had to go to our county's sheriff's office with my 'handgun course' certificate to apply for the permit-$100. A week later, I get a call from the sheriff's office, "Mr xxxx, we have a record from xxxx, Illinois that you were arrested on Feb 22, 1956. Might you know why you were arrested then? That city doesn't have anything on why you were arrested." I answered, "Wow, that was almost 50 yrs ago...I don't remember." He then said, "We'll have to look into it again." I received my permit to carry 6 days later. 50 years? Big Brother is alive! (Could have been my driving record then.....it wasn't nice. No, I never drank.)

 

[hobbeeman]

I understood about the BG 21ft away with a knife was to increase our (classmembers) awareness of our surroundings. However, I surmise that if the BG can cover the distance and get to me in less time that I can draw and fire (<2sec), perhaps it would be prudent to carry a knife as a primary weapon? Especially if I took the time to train with a knife, like I have started to train with the handgun?

In Texas, you do not have to have any kind of permit to carry a legal knife.

I do appreciate the good comments from those of you that have not had bad experiences with LEO's when showing your CHL.

 

[IZinterrogator]

The only second thoughts I've had have been about the fingerprinting requirement in my state. I've never been printed, don't want to be printed, and hate the idea of my prints being on file. Criminals get fingerprinted, not law-abiding citizens.

Hmmm, I'm a law-abiding citizen, and a member of the military. To join the military, I not only had to give fingerprints, but also a DNA sample. There are so many reasons that people have to give fingerprints that it is not at all unusual for a law-abiding citizen to have theirs on file.

 

[MikeIsaj]

coughed up a pile of time and $ to get that CHL.

In PA. it took about 5 minutes to fill out the app. and pay the $19.00. After that about 30 seconds to open the envelope and put the permit in my wallet. No permission, no decision, no class. I'm not a criminal so I get to exercise my rights.

RE: Knife fighting,
The best way to win a knife fight is to discharge the snubby in a gut shot. A knife is never a good substitute for a gun.

 

[MaterDei]

I think your instructor has some kind of agenda or he's just full of poop.

+2. Most likely the latter.

 

[torpid]

As for the Tueller Drill, I've found that I can go from hands above shoulders (and awaiting the beep) to aimed first shot in about 2 seconds and some change.

Congratulations. If the BG is 21 feet away and can cover the 21 feet in 1-1/2 seconds, you are only half a second too late to save your life.

(pssst)
You're allowed to move too!

 

[bigmike45]

hobbeeman,

I have been stopped 4 times in the last three years after getting my Texas CHL. Two times for gently pushing the envelope of the speed limit, once for rear license plate light out and once for supposedly not dimming my headlights in time when meeting oncoming traffic.

All 4 times were very pleasant when dealing with the DPS and one Deputy Sheriff. One of the DPS trooper did ask what I carry and I showed him the SIG P-220ST I was carrying at that time. He asked to look at it so I slowly took it out of my holster, removed the clip, cleared the chamber and handed it to him. I think he fell in love since he was carrying a SIG in .40. He said if I ever was to sell it to let him know, so I did. About a year later I called him and he bought it from me. It is his personal carry gun now.

Oh by the way, none of the stops caused a citation to be issued. One DPS did ask me to slow down. He stated that I had obviously worked so hard to keep my record clean and because of that was able to recieve a CHL, I do not need to cause an accident, where I might be at fault, and cause some severe bodily injury or even a death, and loose the right to have that CHL. I thought about what he said and am now keeping within the speed limit.

 

[Werewolf]

To those concerned about fingerprinting...

When I got my CCW in OK my inked prints were rejected twice by the OSBI (OK State Bureau of Investigation) so I had to go down to OSBI and get the digital prints done.

While there I struck up a conversation with the lady doing the prints. Not only did she make the prints but she was one of the folks that examines, compares etc the prints.

FWIW she told me that for most folks any prints more than 5 or 6 years old were of little value when it came to identification because prints change over time. She told me getting an 80 to 85 percent match on 5 year old prints was doing good.

If she is to be believed then even though your prints may be on file they are probably of little use to the government after 5 or so years.

 

[benEzra]

I took my CHL course yesterday. In the course, the instructor gave example after example of what I can only categorize as abuse (or at least borderline abuse) of CHL holders by LEO's.

I don't usually think of myself as naive, but I did not think that this was as common as I now believe, especially in the smaller city in which I live.

I don't wish to form an adversarial relationship with LEO's.

The other thing that was taught to us is that someone 21ft away can stab you before you can get your gun unholstered and fire a round in defense.

I am now wondering if I should get some knife training, and only use my firearms in my car, home and for sport? Use it where I don't have to have a CHL or identify myself as having a concealed weapon?

Have you ever had second thoughts about your CHL?

Not at all. I suspect your instructor may be trying to discourage you? (Or else he's just one heck of a pessimist.)

I've only had one encounter with a LEO after getting my CHL, and it was very positive. The fact that I had a CHL (and it showed up when he ran our plates) seemed to reassure him that I was a "good guy," rather than the opposite. He let my wife off with a warning and a "have a nice day" (she was pulled over for failing to come to a complete stop at a stop sign while we were house-hunting, as I recall).

The officer who took my prints at the courthouse during the application/background check process said he thought CHL's should be issued to citizens free of charge, instead of charging us for it.

Re: the 21-foot scenario, if someone is 21 feet away with a knife in his hand and is after you, a holstered gun is STILL better than nothing at all. If you can run off the line of force while drawing, you can defend yourself. If you can gain enough distance, a gun lets you keep the guy with a knife at a distance; to defend yourself with a knife, you have to get within the range of HIS knife, so having a knife in your pocket (or in your hand) is definitely NOT better than a firearm from a defensive standpoint. As has been mentioned, the Teuller rule is all about situational awareness, and also about NOT STANDING STILL if someone is approaching you with a knife...

 

[Jayman]

Something you guys may want to consider is studying a combative martial art and secondly doing some drills to figure out what you can and cannot get away with. A dummy knife, an airsoft gun, and some safety goggles, and you'll quickly understand what does and doesn't work.

If the gun on your belt is your only tool, you may not be prepared to deal with some other eventualities. While I don't think that everybody should go out and spend years studying a martial art, attending a few seminars or some training sessions might not be a bad idea.

Best thing to do if you have room, is move off of the line of force. That gives you a lot more time to explore your options. Standing still in a dynamic environment is the first and best way to end up dead. First rule of SHTF: MOVE YOUR BUTT! If somebody is charging you retreat LATERALLY away from their direction of movement. Put something between you and them. (Car, mailbox, desk, something.) While doing this you have time to figure out if you should just keep manuvering, draw your gun, pick up something and throw it, etc. Movement is your friend.

 

[beaucoup ammo]

New Guy Here

I walk with a brace and crutches..am 59.. my wife's put up with me for 36 years. We were both mugged 4 months ago coming out of a restaurant here in S.A.

I swore it would never happen again. I've had my CHL for 3 weeks and it makes a difference in how I perceive my ability to protect ny wife and myself from the growing number of scum bags that are inflicting pain on hard working Americans. I only wish I'd gotten my CHL a little sooner!!

See You Soon!

 

[MikeIsaj]

beaucoup ammo;

Welcome to THR, don't be a stranger.

Now that you are armed, make sure you are skilled. A tool without skill is not going to serve you well. Also know the law and what it requires of you regarding lethal force in self defense. Lots of good threads on that topic here.

 

[beaucoup ammo]

Mikeisja

Thanks, Mike

Visited my Dad is Stone Harbor til he passed away 3 years ago. Most folks don't realize what a beautiful place those So. Jersey Forrests are in the Fall!

All they hear about is Newark!

I'm with you on the "skills" angle...with the crutches and bum leg..the dynamics change considerably!

Best Regards!

 

[~z]

Wow, alotta talk from the Lone Star on this topic. No problems here either. Just a bit pissed that we have to have a premit to be "legal".
~z

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The other thing that was taught to us is that someone 21ft away can stab you before you can get your gun unholstered and fire a round in defense.

I am now wondering if I should get some knife training, and only use my firearms in my car, home and for sport?

Did they explain to you that the guy with the knife is the attacker, not the defender in the Tueller drill?

Did they point out that the guy with the knife, while it's amost impossible to draw and stop him, will usually take a shot at contact range?

 

[Hobie]

My fingerprints, teeth (by means of panographic xrays) and DNA are on file due to my military service. What does it matter that there is one more copy of the fingerprints they can't find any faster than those the military has got posted?

LEOs hassling CHP (here in VA) holders? Let them. If I follow the rules they have to, too. Here we have the VCDL defender of freedom and the American way. Ok, a bit overboard (maybe) there but you get the picture. Excercise your rights by using every privelege proper behavior gives you. It is your duty. Opposing evil is a duty. This is one way to do so.

 

[middy]

[in Texas] A single edged folder with a blade 5" or less that doesn't open automatically is legal.

Actually, it doesn't have to be a folder and it's "less than 5.5 inches".

 

[jobu07]

the ones that did announce it seemed a little to anxious to do so (i.e. Hi officer, I'm Rambo and I have a gun. I'M SPECIAL! ) If your state requires that you announce the fact, then do so.

Ya know, in New York there is no provision requiring you to notify the officer you are carrying or even licensed. So one night, I got pulled over. Long story short, I didn't have my headlights on.

Anyway, half way through the stop, he gets me out of my car and has me "assume the position" to get patted down. I've never been frisked before so I stop him before he does so, finding a handgun, and let him know I have a handgun at 3 o'clock and my license to carry said gun is in my wallet. He went berserk.

Well, after I spent about half an hour in hand cuffs and had a supervisor telling this cop he owed me an apology, I was sent on my merry way. But not before the officer that stopped me told me that before I say anything else, I should say to the cop "I have a gun." I didn't think that's a great way to break the ice when you get stopped. Of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[Shootcraps]

I've never regretted it for a minute. It's very reassuring that if the SHTF, I'll be able to protect myself and my family.

I've had a security clearance for a loooong time so lots of people already had my fingerprints. Giving them for my CHL was no biggie.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

hobbeeman said...

I took my CHL course yesterday. In the course, the instructor gave example after example of what I can only categorize as abuse (or at least borderline abuse) of CHL holders by LEO's.

hobbeeman, did your instructor provide you with real reports or just rattle off stories like he knew all these first hand? It sounds to me like your instructor has it in for LEOs. Since you are in Texas, I assume you were doing a Texas CHL. So the stories reported are from Texas? If so, that is about 100% contrary to what I have experienced and what I have learned from LEOs and CHL instructors I know. As noted, a CHL pretty well identifies you as a card carrying good guy that has undergone and passed a more extensive background check that is required for LEOs in Texas. For example, you can become a LEO even with a report of spousal abuse against you, but that can disqualify you for a CHL.

My only regret about my CHL is that I didn't get it sooner.

FWIW she told me that for most folks any prints more than 5 or 6 years old were of little value when it came to identification because prints change over time. She told me getting an 80 to 85 percent match on 5 year old prints was doing good.

Werewolf, no wonder your fingerprint samples were rejected multiple times. Your fingerprint expert that does the matches is apparently a little shy in her understanding of fingerprints, maybe only 1+ centuries shy. William Herschel (1833 - 1918) While working as the Assistant Joint Magistrate and Collector in colonial India, Herschel is credited with being the first European to recognize the value of fingerprints for identification purposes. In 1859 he began collecting, as keepsakes, the fingerprints of his friends and relatives and took note of how each impression was unique to the individual and observed that the patterns did not change over time.

IN 1892, Galton published "Finger Prints" and noted that they do not change over time.

Some means of record storage may deteriorate over time, but the prints don't change. Heck, the basis for biometric fingerprint identification is based on the trait that the fingerprints do not change. They are immutable so long as they don't suffer some form of physical damage such as scarring.

If fingerprints change so much that getting a match is hard after 5 years, then how would you expect cold cases to be solved based on fingerprint matches from old cases and people recently jailed? Here is a 14 year example...
http://www.dailytexanonline.com/med...Local/Case-Solved.After.14.Years-754926.shtml

here is a 25 year example (CASE STUDY: FINGERPRINT IDENTIFICATION )...
http://www.fbi.gov/libref/factsfigure/lawenforce.htm

Cold cases can be resolved by fingerprints because of their permanence.

Permanence: Fingerprint ridges are formed during the third to fourth month of fetal development. These ridges consist of individual characteristics called ridge endings, bifurcations, dots and many ridge shape variances. The unit relationship of individual characteristics does not naturally change throughout life... until decomposition after death. After formation, an infant's growing fingerprint ridges are much like drawing a face on a balloon with a ball-point pen and then inflating the balloon to see the same face expand uniformly in all directions. Unnatural changes to fingerprint ridges include deep cuts or injuries penetrating all layers of the epidermis and some diseases such as leprosy. http://onin.com/fp/lpfaq.html

That is sort of frightening that the state expert in OK would make such a fundamental error. Are you sure that is what she told you?

 

[bratch]

Knife skills are a good skill to have. I have probably 50-100 hours of knife training.

perhaps it would be prudent to carry a knife as a primary weapon? Especially if I took the time to train with a knife, like I have started to train with the handgun?

Have you ever tried to draw and open a folder under stress? I would consider it slower than drawing a pistol unless you are really good.

I've done all of my knife training with a very well respected trainer. He carries a pistol as well as multiple knives.

Its about having the right tool for the job. I knife can be stealthly carried in a dark parking lot alot easier than a gun. Each have their place.

 

[JohnKSa]

Actually, it doesn't have to be a folder and it's "less than 5.5 inches".

There's a new law defining how to measure the blade, and I'll be switched if I can figure it out. As nearly as I can tell, they're measuring along the cutting edge and calling that the length of the blade. The law says 5.5" as you note, but since I can't explain what the 5.5" actually applies to, I've quoted a more conservative number.

As far as the folder, the definitions of illegal knife are poorly bounded in some cases and could be construed to mean almost anything by someone who wants to cause trouble. However, a single edged folder that doesn't open automatically is clearly outside any of the definitions as nearly as I can tell...

Here's the text of the law--this is a bit outdated and doesn't include the new definition of how to measure the blade length:

"Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, and poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.

dagger/dirk/stilletto/poiniard (generally taken to mean that double edged knives are illegal)
bowie knife is the sticky one. A good many fixed blade hunting knives could be called a bowie knife--especially since there's no definition of what the law means by "bowie knife".