Class III "Back Door" Might work ???

[deadly50bmg]

Allright, I know a certain few of you guys will jump right on and answer my question very quickly. Here it is.

In order to buy a Post sample or dealer sample gun that is brand new you have to either be a Class III dealer or Law enforcement. If you are one of those then you can buy a full auto bushmaster for about $2000.00 easily.

Problem is that most of us are not Class III dealers or Law enforcement.

My 'very sketchy' solution to this is...What if I went and got my Peace officer's certification? Legally I'm a cop, I just dont work for any local agency's. Would this qualify me as Law Enforcement?

Please dont just say yes or no, Explain your perrogative so that I might further my knowledge in this regard.

Thanks for all of your help guys.

Chris

 

[ScottsGT]

I'm not a cop, don't pretend to be one, but from what I have read on the internet (so it must be true) is that any PD issued class III's must remain in the possession of the PD unless it is issued out by the chief.
Apply for a Class III mfgr. FFL It will cost you a few hundred per year, but you can build one yourself for under $1K. Ever get tired of paying the yearly fees, chop up the receiver and associated parts and turn them into the ATF. Keep everything else and build an AR you can keep.
There is also a loophole where you can form an LLC (Limited Liability Corp) with a Class III license as a security company. Thought about trying this thru the wifes LLC, but I don't think she would go for it

 

[kfranz]

Cops can't buy NFA weapons any different than you or I. Departments can.

 

[boofus]

Officers don't buy post-sample weapons. Their agency buys them and issues them as needed, but they are the owner.

 

[deadly50bmg]

Thanks for the responses guys, thats kinda what I was thinking. Is it true thought that an LLC can get Class III weapons? I thought it had to be a corporation, not a Company?

 

[Shipwreck]

Here in Tx, I think after you are a certified peace office - if a year or longer goes by and you are not employed as an officer, you loose your certification.

 

[Coronach]

LLCs can get Class III weapons, yes, but they are treated the same way as an individual in that regard. Read: you can't buy post samples, or anything else that you could not buy as an individual. The advantages of LLCs is that they bypass the CLEO signoff and enable you to designate "officers of the corporation" as people who can handle the weapons.

There are other advantages and drawbacks, and you should consult with an attorney about what setting up a corporation entails.

Mike

 

[ScottsGT]

LLCs can get Class III weapons, yes, but they are treated the same way as an individual in that regard. Read: you can't buy post samples, or anything else that you could not buy as an individual. The advantages of LLCs is that they bypass the CLEO signoff and enable you to designate "officers of the corporation" as people who can handle the weapons.

There are other advantages and drawbacks, and you should consult with an attorney about what setting up a corporation entails.

Mike

So by using our LLC, I can buy only a pre '86 Class III? How about SBR or Silencers?
BTW, Getting an LLC is probably more difficult than getting the CLEO to sign off!

 

[Coronach]

Depends on your local CLEO.

Setting up a LLC certainly costs more than having a guy sign a sheet of paper for you, but if you can't get the guy to sign... Also, as I said, there are other benefits.

AFAIK, the LLC route works fine for SBRs, SBSs, silencers, etc.

Someone who has done it will surely be along shortly to explain. I'm merely looking at doing it.

 

[VorpalSpork]

Why not form a holding political subdivision?

U.S.C. 18 § 922(o) says

(o)

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.
(2) This subsection does not apply with respect to—

(A) a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(B) any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect.​

So, short of repealing U.S.C. 18 § 922(o) you need to be issued a post86 machinegun by the federal government, or a political subdivision. Now people form holding corporations to own their Title II firearms all the time, why not form a holding political subdivision?

1) Acquire a plot of ground out in the country.
2) Incorporate aforementioned plot of ground as a town, a legitimate political subdivision of your state. *
3) Elect yourself mayor
4) Hire yourself as the chief of police
5) As mayor, create a special tax to raise money for the police department.
6) As the sole property owner in your town, pay the aforementioned tax
7) As chief of police, use the tax revenue to buy the department a new machinegun, following BATFE procedures to register it in the NFA Registry.
8) As chief of police, issue yourself the aforementioned machinegun
9) Repeat steps 5 through 8 as desired.

Notice that 922(o) does not say anything about officers of political subdivisions only being able to posses machineguns in their jurisdiction. So with the exception of legally transferring possession to a private individual, you should be able to treat your new machinegun the same as any pre86 machinegun. Moreover, as a police officer, you get national concealed carry, thanks to H.R. 218, "The Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act laws I'm sure having your own town has other benefits also.

*Now granted, step 2 may be all but impossible to do. I'm not sure what the requirements are for incorporating a new town, but it's not something thats done every day. If you could get past that, the rest would work. Maybe after the Free State Project is a success we can all be the mayor in our own 1"x1" towns in New Hampshire.

 

[Coronach]

Heh!

I do know that in order to be considered a LE agent in MOST states one is required to hold and maintain some manner of certification. I suspect that this little monkeywrench would vie with the creation of the incorporated town for Biggest Problem With This Scheme.

It's still amusing, though.

Mike

 

[Hkmp5sd]

AFAIK, the LLC route works fine for SBRs, SBSs, silencers, etc.

Yep. LLC is good for all NFA items.

Don't forget the major downside of buying NFA items with as a LLC. You must maintain the corporation to keep your toys. If the corporation goes away, you must transfer all of your NFA items. If you want to keep any of them, you have to do the whole Form 4/CLEO/$200($5) process.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have known enthusiast LEOs who have paid for the department to buy automatic or sound-supressed weapons and issue the gun to them. A considerable amount of trading on personal acquaintance with the chief or political pull is required.

 

[Jim K]

One guy had the best idea. He said that he was going to declare himself his own country. That way, he could buy all the machine guns and anything else he wanted and wouldn't have to worry about U.S. law. He would finance himself by opening gambling casinos and selling recreational drugs.

I don't know if he is the same guy who is in trouble in MD. The latest "nation" is a postal worker who got a bad review from his boss, so he claims he copyrighted his name in his "country" and is suing the boss for a million dollars for using it without permission. He also claims to be an independent nation and not subject to state or federal law. Hmmm. We'll see how that works.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

There were some folks in my area had a similar idea about 145 years ago. It did not work out well for them.

 

[-C4-]

Pro: If you are right you get a machine gun.
Con: If you are wrong you get to meet a guy named Bubba.
Moral: "I fear we have awoken a sleeping giant."

-C4-

 

[CleverNickname]

Scheme for chartering a town

What would be easier would just be to buy a town. I've seen some news stories in the past couple years where small towns (of 10-20 people) out in the middle of nowhere were for sale on Ebay for a couple million or so.

Of course, whatever larger governmental entity creates the town (the county or state), could also revoke the town's charter if you became enough of a political embarrassment/annoyance.

 

[rfurtkamp]

LLC depending on your state is the way to go.

Here I have to pay a yearly property tax on items owned by the LLC (not a big deal on SBR'd semis, since they aren't exactly high-dollar guns and the tax stamps themselves aren't taxable). It's less than I spend on one visit to the range.

I have a pair of Form 1s in right now, just waiting to get approved.

 

[DSS]

I have to pay a yearly property tax on everything my company ownes. Personal property tax they call it.
As far as class 3 ffl and machine guns go there is no longer such a thing as class 3.

A class 01 dealer can do "class 3" NFA firearms now. I just went all through this at the ATF office before I submitted my new application. SInce I work on and sell military guns I had to have all my bases covered legaly. I passed on getting the class 7 manufacturing license for this year but next year probably. I got the class 01 dealers license. They showed me in the new manual where I will be allowed to sell, work on and transfer NFA weapons.

So there is no more class 3.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

So there is no more class 3.

You are very much mistaken. A generic 01-FFL cannot deal in NFA items. It requires the appropriate SOT (Special Occupational Tax) If you look at § 479.32 Special (occupational) tax rates, you will find the SOT for a dealer in Class 3 firearms costs $1000 per year.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/27cfr_part479.pdf